New Rifle & some reloading advice sought

[Matabele]

Hello everyone,

Well it's exciting times as I took the plunge and acquired my first double, nothing too fancy but a Merkel 141 in 9.3x74R.
I've been waiting for some decent light to take some photos, but I'll put some up soon...in the meantime though I'm champing at the bit to shoot it!

I've put together some reloading components and plan to use Hornady's ECX 250 gr bullet. I'm in the UK so I'm limited to an all copper projectile.

My question relates to bullet seating depth, and how much jump there is to the lands. I've measured where the lands are in my rifle, and with the ECX's two crimping grooves I've got a jump of either 0.045" or 0.150". I understand all copper bullets require at least 0.05" jump, especially when starting to develop a load. So the former seems marginal especially for a new to me rifle and untested, while the latter seems excessive. Am I overthinking it? Could anyone with some experience with all coppers shed some light and where I should be starting?

Many thanks!

 

[Schüler Jumbo]

Hi @Matabele, what diameter are your bullets?

 

[Matabele]

Hi @Matabele, what diameter are your bullets?

Hi there,

The box states 0.366", although they measure (with calipers) 0.3655"

 

[Rimshot]

You may not need to crimp at all, unless you have really light neck tension.

With a Lee factory crimp die, you could crimp anywhere on the bullet you want.

Copper bullets like to jump, so in general I don't think 0.150 is an issue. I'd try that first and go from there. Most copper bullets seem to be insensitive to seating depth if they're going to shoot at all.

 

[Matabele]

You may not need to crimp at all, unless you have really light neck tension.

With a Lee factory crimp die, you could crimp anywhere on the bullet you want.

Copper bullets like to jump, so in general I don't think 0.150 is an issue. I'd try that first and go from there. Most copper bullets seem to be insensitive to seating depth if they're going to shoot at all.

That's encouraging to hear, I appreicate the reply! I'll put an order in for a crimp day and in the meantime give the 0.150" jump a try.

 

[skydiver386]

Deeper is almost always better with all the mono's in my rifles. The exact opposite of lead core bullets.

 

[Schüler Jumbo]

Diameter sounds good at .3655”. There are discussions regarding stress on the barrels joining with monometals at full grove diameter.

 

[idiot101]

Hello from Sunny Scotland and congratulations on the new rifle!

I've got a 9.3x74r (Chapuis but back at the factory for a warrenty repair), and I love it - I'm sure you will too. Firstly the lead ban only applies to within the UK only and doesn't come into affect until 2029 so you've a few years left if you want to drum up a lead round for now or for use overseas. Where I've been boar shooting France they've insisted in lead bullets of at least 155gr...

My go to loading is 56.5gr of N150, with 186gr S&B (lead) bullet and a Remington magnum primer COAL 3.640" which gets a ragged hole with 10rds at 50m at the bench (data sheet attached). Its what the previous owner developed and it works so well and I've got a couple of hundred bullet heads so I've not changed it.

If you're nearby then send me a DM, it would be fun to have enother double rifle user to practice with and if you don't have dies yet then I'd be happy to lend you mine...

Also I've had great luck with some very affordable leather:
A 303 enfield design pouch changed to fit 10rds of 9.3x74r from lgleather.co.uk
And a 6rd belt slide in pairs from Safarileather.co.uk

 

[idiot101]

late correction: S&B Bullet weight is 286grain

 

[Matabele]

Hello from Sunny Scotland and congratulations on the new rifle!

I've got a 9.3x74r (Chapuis but back at the factory for a warrenty repair), and I love it - I'm sure you will too. Firstly the lead ban only applies to within the UK only and doesn't come into affect until 2029 so you've a few years left if you want to drum up a lead round for now or for use overseas. Where I've been boar shooting France they've insisted in lead bullets of at least 155gr...

My go to loading is 56.5gr of N150, with 186gr S&B (lead) bullet and a Remington magnum primer COAL 3.640" which gets a ragged hole with 10rds at 50m at the bench (data sheet attached). Its what the previous owner developed and it works so well and I've got a couple of hundred bullet heads so I've not changed it.

If you're nearby then send me a DM, it would be fun to have enother double rifle user to practice with and if you don't have dies yet then I'd be happy to lend you mine...

Also I've had great luck with some very affordable leather:
A 303 enfield design pouch changed to fit 10rds of 9.3x74r from lgleather.co.uk
And a 6rd belt slide in pairs from Safarileather.co.uk

Hello there!

What fantastic information, thank you very much it's appreciated. I'm based a bit further south, in Warwickshire, however that's not say a trip up North isn't in the foreseeable future. If so I will be sure to get in touch and perhaps we can arrange a range day.

Many thanks too for the offer of the loan of your dies, I have managed to find a set off one of the other forums however. They're Simplex branded, and not one I'm familiar with, but seem to be well made.

Hopefully I'll be able to get some decent results with the Hornady ECX bullets, but if not I may well give a lead core bullet a try. As you mentioned we have some time left.

Out of interest is your rifle conditioned for use on deer in the UK? They wouldn't sign mine off sadly, it will only be used abroad.

 

[AZDAVE]

First do you know what round the rifle was regulated with.

Second get Grahm wrights book on shooting the English double rifle cover to cover several times. He has some general loads the will get you in the ball park for most 9.3 doubles.


on my 9.3 doubles I hav3 owned the lightest bullet I have developed loads for is 286gr.

Best of luck developing loads that shoot to the regulation of your double.

 

[Matabele]

First do you know what round the rifle was regulated with.

Second get Grahm wrights book on shooting the English double rifle cover to cover several times. He has some general loads the will get you in the ball park for most 9.3 doubles.


on my 9.3 doubles I hav3 owned the lightest bullet I have developed loads for is 286gr.

Best of luck developing loads that shoot to the regulation of your double.

Unfortunately I wasn't able to get any info on the guns regulation load, I've seen mentioned that Merkel 141's are regulated with a slightly lighter weight than the standard 286gr. The one bonus with this gun is that it has an adjustable wedge to fine tune regulation, a bit like the Kreighoff guns.

I do have Graham Wrights book, and will be taking another look this evening.

Thanks for the reply!

 

[idiot101]

Hello there!

What fantastic information, thank you very much it's appreciated. I'm based a bit further south, in Warwickshire, however that's not say a trip up North isn't in the foreseeable future. If so I will be sure to get in touch and perhaps we can arrange a range day.

Many thanks too for the offer of the loan of your dies, I have managed to find a set off one of the other forums however. They're Simplex branded, and not one I'm familiar with, but seem to be well made.

Hopefully I'll be able to get some decent results with the Hornady ECX bullets, but if not I may well give a lead core bullet a try. As you mentioned we have some time left.

Out of interest is your rifle conditioned for use on deer in the UK? They wouldn't sign mine off sadly, it will only be used abroad.

All FAC's in scotland are Open Tickets (no restriction on where a firearm can be used), but the legal minimum muzzle energy for deer is at least 1,700ft/lbs and aminimum muzzle velocity of 2,450fps.

Off the top of my head that loading is roughly 200fps too slow (but ironically nearly twice the muzzle energy), to legally shoot deer with. However I'm happy to put that down as badly written and not worry about it too much. My local firearms licencing department are fantastic and I trust they'd be sensible about it if it ever came up with them. However as it's pretty uncomfortable to shoot prone which is how deer are usually approached in our big open glens I think I'll stick with my stalking rifle with moderator and bipod anyway. Though if i were seeing friends and walking the hedges down south I could be sorely tempted. Our increasing population of wild boar in the Great Glen are however on the menu come the short summer nights.

I'm envious you're so close to Birmingham and Westely richards but I'm guessing they don't do a local discount?

Another vote on the Graham Wrights book (not that I have used any of his load suggestions).

 

[Matabele]

All FAC's in scotland are Open Tickets (no restriction on where a firearm can be used), but the legal minimum muzzle energy for deer is at least 1,700ft/lbs and aminimum muzzle velocity of 2,450fps.

Off the top of my head that loading is roughly 200fps too slow (but ironically nearly twice the muzzle energy), to legally shoot deer with. However I'm happy to put that down as badly written and not worry about it too much. My local firearms licencing department are fantastic and I trust they'd be sensible about it if it ever came up with them. However as it's pretty uncomfortable to shoot prone which is how deer are usually approached in our big open glens I think I'll stick with my stalking rifle with moderator and bipod anyway. Though if i were seeing friends and walking the hedges down south I could be sorely tempted. Our increasing population of wild boar in the Great Glen are however on the menu come the short summer nights.

I'm envious you're so close to Birmingham and Westely richards but I'm guessing they don't do a local discount?

Another vote on the Graham Wrights book (not that I have used any of his load suggestions).

Well I'm very envious, I wish there was a bit more leniency in my neck of the woods! Perhaps I'll have to consider retiring to Scotland, when the time comes.

Yes indeed Westley's is not too far away at all, and in fact I've been lucky enough to visit a couple of times and get a tour of the place. The lads working there are really putting out some phenomenal guns. The quality of engraving and ornamentation is frankly mind boggling, all on sound guns that you could shoot for a lifetime, not just for show. I did hint at a discount but I think even so I'll have to wait till the lottery comes through.

How do you find the recoil of the 286gr in your Chapuis, they are quite light guns I believe?

 

[idiot101]

Rifle specs for comparison:

• 60cm barrels
• 4.8cm across the breach
• Weight 3.47kg (7.63lb) unloaded without optic or sling

As long as she's shot standing as intended she's fine for as many consecutive rounds as you want to shoot with it. Lying down is unpleasant no doubt about it as the recoil has nowhere to go. Standing its roughly equal to a 12bore I'd say

She used to be awful before I fixed the length of pull (I added about an inch and a half), but before I did I also added a rubber trigger guard which I probably don't need anymore.

But before both those things and before I took her to France for the first time i took her to the H&H shooting cinema. Where I fired 80rds inside an hour and she beat the bells out of my middle finger. Not her fault, she just didn't fit me.

To add insult to injury, I was sick as a dog that trip and didn't see as much as a rasher of bacon.

 

[SFRanger7GP]

Hello everyone,

Well it's exciting times as I took the plunge and acquired my first double, nothing too fancy but a Merkel 141 in 9.3x74R.
I've been waiting for some decent light to take some photos, but I'll put some up soon...in the meantime though I'm champing at the bit to shoot it!

I've put together some reloading components and plan to use Hornady's ECX 250 gr bullet. I'm in the UK so I'm limited to an all copper projectile.

My question relates to bullet seating depth, and how much jump there is to the lands. I've measured where the lands are in my rifle, and with the ECX's two crimping grooves I've got a jump of either 0.045" or 0.150". I understand all copper bullets require at least 0.05" jump, especially when starting to develop a load. So the former seems marginal especially for a new to me rifle and untested, while the latter seems excessive. Am I overthinking it? Could anyone with some experience with all coppers shed some light and where I should be starting?

Many thanks!

Congratulations on your double. My first double rifle was also a Merkel 141 in 9.3x74R, and it is the only one I still have. I have killed a lot of game in the US and Africa with it at ranges past 200 yards.

Back when I was able to visit Merkel USA in Alabama regularly, these rifles came from the factory regulated with Norma Oryx 232gr ammo. I believe Norma stopped making the lighter bullet loads and only the 286gr Oryx is available. My rifle shoots Norma 286gr factory ammo better than any other. It also likes the Federal ammo loaded with the 286 TSX bullet. I stopped trying to find a reload that it likes as the factory ammo performed great and I stocked up on it before the world went crazy.

I added a thick, Pachmayr decelerator recoil pad and it really tamed the recoil. If you have to regulate it, may I give a bit of experience based advice. Follow the factory regulating instructions exactly on the adjustments. Shoot it twice, L-R and then let the barrels cool. Not just good enough to touch them cool, but back to the temperature they were before you fired it. I waited 30 or more minutes with the rifle in the shade. You probably won't need to wait near that long in Scotland.

If you need the regulating instructions, let me know and I will post it.

Safe shooting

 

[Matabele]

Rifle specs for comparison:

• 60cm barrels
• 4.8cm across the breach
• Weight 3.47kg (7.63lb) unloaded without optic or sling

As long as she's shot standing as intended she's fine for as many consecutive rounds as you want to shoot with it. Lying down is unpleasant no doubt about it as the recoil has nowhere to go. Standing its roughly equal to a 12bore I'd say

She used to be awful before I fixed the length of pull (I added about an inch and a half), but before I did I also added a rubber trigger guard which I probably don't need anymore.

View attachment 765742

But before both those things and before I took her to France for the first time i took her to the H&H shooting cinema. Where I fired 80rds inside an hour and she beat the bells out of my middle finger. Not her fault, she just didn't fit me.

To add insult to injury, I was sick as a dog that trip and didn't see as much as a rasher of bacon.

View attachment 765740

She definitely made her presence known...I bet you were avoiding shaking hands for a couple of days! Thanks for the pictures...the wood is lovely on your rifle! My gun has similar dimensions although thankfully slightly heavier at 3.7kg (just over 8lbs). I dont think the Merkel 141's are this heavy out of the factory, and I suspect some weight has been added to the butt. This has moved the balance point quite far back although it still seems to shoulder nicely. Muzzle flip may be another matter.

 

[Matabele]

Congratulations on your double. My first double rifle was also a Merkel 141 in 9.3x74R, and it is the only one I still have. I have killed a lot of game in the US and Africa with it at ranges past 200 yards.

Back when I was able to visit Merkel USA in Alabama regularly, these rifles came from the factory regulated with Norma Oryx 232gr ammo. I believe Norma stopped making the lighter bullet loads and only the 286gr Oryx is available. My rifle shoots Norma 286gr factory ammo better than any other. It also likes the Federal ammo loaded with the 286 TSX bullet. I stopped trying to find a reload that it likes as the factory ammo performed great and I stocked up on it before the world went crazy.

I added a thick, Pachmayr decelerator recoil pad and it really tamed the recoil. If you have to regulate it, may I give a bit of experience based advice. Follow the factory regulating instructions exactly on the adjustments. Shoot it twice, L-R and then let the barrels cool. Not just good enough to touch them cool, but back to the temperature they were before you fired it. I waited 30 or more minutes with the rifle in the shade. You probably won't need to wait near that long in Scotland.

If you need the regulating instructions, let me know and I will post it.

Safe shooting

Thank you Ranger, I'm really pleased to finally own a double. I can't stop thinking about taking it for a walk in Africa. What optic do you have on yours out of interest?

If you woulnd't mind posting the regulating instructions I'd appreciate that.

 

[Matabele]

Here are some photos...

 

[meigsbucks]

Congratulations on your double.
My 9.3x74R is simply a T/C Encore barrel. I load 250gr Barnes TTSX, 250gr Nosler AB and 286gr Hornady out of mine. With regards to the 250gr Barnes, I seat them .05” off the lands. I’ve tried deeper, but didn’t get any better accuracy. I don’t crimp, but being a single shot, I don’t have to worry about a 2nd bullet changing depth.
Good luck with your new rifle.