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[Tundra Tiger]

I had to go back to see I was the person who started this thread.

My goal is a modern (Miroku?) rifle and modern loads - something that shoots at 4000 ft pds+, and there is ammo available that achieves that.

 

[fourfive8]

OP’s question- easy answer. Get a Lyman 48th Edition (or newer) Reloading Handbook. Two examples of “pictures for bigger words” attached.

 

[Daryl S]

One way would be to buy a box of THAT ammo and take one or two apart and try to identify the powder & weigh it.
Aside from that, start with max loads for a Marlin lever gun in .45/70, go from there, if pressure signs indicate you can. You will not find the data you seek from any powder company or a loading manual, unless you can find an old AA(Accurate Arms) manual with the red covers. They had the data you are looking for. The top loads for a Marlin .45/70 or .458 Marlin are likely 40,000psi to not over 43,000psi. This 43,000psi is the maximum suggested for the Marlins. The 86 WILL 'take" a bit more. These cases are immensely strong in the head area due to the rim diameter(mostly). Marlin noted some time ago, they loaded a case to 70,000psi and had no problems with the rifle or the case. 70,000 is not loading data, but they did that to show what the rifle with it's small barrel diameter and the ctg. would 'stand'.

 

[Daryl S]

I forgot I had a #51 Lyman book. It lists cast bullet loads for .45/90 in Modern Guns designed for Smokeless powder.
The velocities shown are higher than data for modern Lever Gun .45/70 loads.
385gr. @ 2,134fps
400gr. @ 1,948fps
500gr. @ 1,772fps
535gr. @ 1,707fps
These are the highest vel. posted for these cast bullets.

 

[Don458]

1960 Lyman vol 42 has some general loads. But seems like you’re looking for power load. Let me know if you want the load data.

 

[Rafiki]

I've had my 45-90 Rollingblock shooting 500gr Interlocks at over 2000fps. Shot clear through a bison; way too much power.

 

[Daryl S]

Must have been a Navy Arms #1. Had one of those, with a tight Hoch (.456").458 barrel & chambered for the .45 3 1/4". I shot it only with black powder, but has been said in one or more gun rag. magazines that it was an enormously strong action & capable of handling 50,000PSI loads. I would not have attempted that regardless of what was printed.
I did 2,050fps in both of my .458 2" Mausers, a VZ 34 and a Mark 10 with 500gr. Hornady RN's & in the first one, with Winchester 510gr. as well.

 

[mgstucson]

I really hope you find your load and keep us informed. I wanted to go that way and get a 500gr bullet to 2100fps, but I was afraid it was impossible to obtain if I stayed with COL of the standard 45-90, and under 50,000psi which some say is the limit for the modern steel 1886.

I started building a long throated 45-100 double instead.

You might find this info helpful.

45-90 Tale of 2 rifles

 

[Daryl S]

Lyman #51 also has data for the .45 2.6", .45 2 7/8's and .45 3 1/4".
There isn't 100fps difference in their data from the .45/90 to the .45 3 1/4"

 

[Daryl S]

I really hope you find your load and keep us informed. I wanted to go that way and get a 500gr bullet to 2100fps, but I was afraid it was impossible to obtain if I stayed with COL of the standard 45-90, and under 50,000psi which some say is the limit for the modern steel 1886.

I started building a long throated 45-100 double instead.

You might find this info helpful.

45-90 Tale of 2 rifles

Is this fellow trying to say reamer when he says ring?

"The chamber ring that I purchased was for a 45-90 Winchester chamber I was pleasantly surprised to see that this ring gave me .200 free bore."

 

[mgstucson]

Is this fellow trying to say reamer when he says ring?

"The chamber ring that I purchased was for a 45-90 Winchester chamber I was pleasantly surprised to see that this ring gave me .200 free bore."

Yes

 

[Daryl S]

Just watched a video on the .45/90, .45/70 and .458 Marlin by Tim, the owner of Buffalo Bullets.
He says the .45/90, in the same rifle at the same pressures(I assume) will give roughly 15% higher vel. with the same bullet. Now, if it is possible to get the .45/70 to 1,650fps in a m86 with a 500gr. bullet, the same gun in .45/90, should get 1,897fps - close enough to call it 1,900fps.
I would believe the 2,100fps with a 500gr., maybe even a bit more, IF in a Mauser rifle, not a lever gun.
The Argentine Mauser just might do it.
I loaded the same ammo I used in my .459 2" in an Argentine Mauser in .45/70 and it gave duplicate vel. with the same bullets. I used the same load for all bullet weights: 350 @ 2,296fps, 400gr. @ 2,150fps and 500gr. at 2,059fps. This shows the 400 and 350's were not at the same pressure as the 500's, obviously. I got duplicate vel. using both H335 and IMR4320.
I tested John Buhmiller's primer on top of the powder, cup-down-theory for straight sided cases, briefly.
I was able to reduce the load by 8 gr. and got the same vel. Interesting experimentation. A move interrupted this 'work' & I never got around to it again.
My .458 2" had a 3/8" freebore/leade - BUT, it required a HEAVY crimp on the bullet to give good St.Dev's.
A Lee Factory Crimp Die would allow crimping any cup and core bullet, anywhere, so case capacity could be increased, just as I did with my .22 Hornet and .218Bee.
Buffalo Bore .45/90 ammo specifically for (I would suspect) a modern Model 86 Winchester runs a 430gr. hard cast flat nose at 2,150fps, for 4,413fpe.

 

[JFE]

Thanks for sharing the Buffalo Bore info. The YouTube clip is also worth viewing.

I was pleasantly surprised to see a good variety of loadings. The loads appear to be held to 38K psi, which is a realistic working max pressure for a modern 1886 rifle.

The ballistics achieved can be duplicated using a chrono and being sensible about powder selection.

 

[Daryl S]

The maximum for the Marlin is said to be 43,000PSI. The Model 86 is supposed to be higher. Pedersoli does not claim that for their model 1886/71, although it should be, for all intents and purposes. They indicate 30,000PSI, which is only 2,000 above the 1873 trapdoor Springfield's 28,000PSI. I use Marlin data in my '86/71.
For Elk and deer, 2,060fps is good enough for those 2 ungulates or a troublesome bear. It also does nicely with the 300gr. Hornady at 2,260fps. I have a couple loads for 405 hard cast Buffalo Barn FN'S at 1,800fps. I didn't chronograph the 450's with Bench Mark, but expect 1,775fps.

 

[JFE]

The max pressure in a Marlin is often quoted as 43K psi and all 1886 rifles, new production and originals, are generally lumped in 28K psi zone.

Marlin engineers did an amazing job to shoehorn a 45/70 cartridge in what is really a rifle action designed for the 30/30 class of cartridges. Personally I think that 43K psi is too high for a Marlin in 45/70. If you’ve ever looked at the amount of metal left in the receiver between the bottom of the barrel and the top of the mag tube opening, it is scary thin.

At one point barrels in 1895 receivers were over torqued at the factory and this thin area was split. Any of the Marlin failures you see on the internet generally fail at this point. I have used a Marlin 1895 for years but my loads are closer to 28K psi.

Turnbull is well regarded as an authority on the 1886. While he recognises that modern 1886 rifles can be loaded to higher pressures, his loads are kept to 40-42K psi for an additional margin of safety. He has seen rifles occasionally malfunction as pressure approaches 50K psi.

Besides, boosting pressure from 40-42K psi to close to 50K psi only reults in another 100 fps or so. In a rifle that might be used in a DG situation I don’t think the juice is worth the squeeze.

 

[Daryl S]

I agree that the additional pressure does not give a worthwhile boost in vel.
Buffalo Bullets owner Tim S. noted 15% over top .45/70 loads for the .45/90. I would take that as gospel. As I noted, his .45/90 load:

"Buffalo Bore .45/90 ammo specifically for (I would suspect) a modern Model 86 Winchester runs a 430gr. hard cast flat nose at 2,150fps, for 4,413fpe"

Using this vel. for a goal, there should be ZERO problem loading to this level using H4895, maybe even H4198. I would try the H4895 first, keeping a VERY close eye on pressures - base measurements are best in this endeavour.

Brian Pierce shot through both shoulders of a cape buffalo using Core Bon load of a 405gr. PEN solid, using a Marlin 1895. Core Bon lists that bullet in factory ammo at 1,600fps. I do not know if Brian handloaded that one or not.
This was written up in the 2019 August/September issue of Rifle Magazine. In that issue, he shows a couple sets of hand loading data, with 415gr. cast loads to 2,096fps and Oregon Trail 430gr. at 2,030fps. That's almost 3,950fpe. That Lyman 415gr. #457193, makes 4,050fpe.
Those are .45/70 loads.

 

[Daryl S]

OK- just did a quick Google check on case capacities.
.458 Win. Mag. 95gr. water
.45/90 Winch. 89.5 to 90gr.
That 5 gr. of water capacity usually translates into 100fps. IF the pressures are identical.
"The SAAMI maximum pressure for the .458 Winchester Magnum is 53,000 CUP (Copper Units of Pressure) or roughly 60,000 PSI (Pounds per Square Inch). "
I absolutely do not think ANYONE should be attempting to match the .458 Mag's vel. with a commercial lever gun of any make.

 

[mgstucson]

The maximum for the Marlin is said to be 43,000PSI. The Model 86 is supposed to be higher. Pedersoli does not claim that for their model 1886/71, although it should be, for all intents and purposes. They indicate 30,000PSI, which is only 2,000 above the 1873 trapdoor Springfield's 28,000PSI. I use Marlin data in my '86/71.
For Elk and deer, 2,060fps is good enough for those 2 ungulates or a troublesome bear. It also does nicely with the 300gr. Hornady at 2,260fps. I have a couple loads for 405 hard cast Buffalo Barn FN'S at 1,800fps. I didn't chronograph the 450's with Bench Mark, but expect 1,775fps.

I have researched every which way to get close to 458 WM performance in a lever action. I think the only lever action that can stand the pressure is the Browning BLR. I have a 7mm RM in a Browning BLR, and IF I could find a gunsmith to re-barrel it to 458 WM, I would do it in a second. The problem isn't too much pressure, the problem is re-barreling the BLR at all, to ANY caliber, because of the aluminum frame and the press fit barrel interface. I would also re-barrel a Browning BPR pump action to 458 WM also, but it has the same barrel/frame issue.

I am working on a double, but I decided a 45-90 would not reliably get me there, so I went with a 45-100 at case length of 2.6. I have 1000 cases I special ordered from Starline.

 

[JFE]

There have been a few BLR conversions here in Oz. The most recent ones I’ve heard of were in 375 & 416 Ruger. The starting point is a BLR with a steel receiver.

 

[Sarg]

High pressure loads in 45/90 are difficult to find. You will find more guidance reviewing published pressure tested Class 3 loads for 45/70, ie loads for the Ruger No.1. There is some load data for 457 WWG which is a high pressure 2.2” cartridge loaded to an OAL of 2.65”. Carefully analyse such pressure tested data, taking into account OAL. Bear in mind that an 1886 is nowhere near as strong as a Ruger No.1.

You can also get inspiration by checking Turnbull’s data for the 475 Turnbull. He keeps pressures at sensible levels. Real Guns did an article on modern 45/90 loads but the max loads were easily matched in a hot loaded 45/70.

I had a 45/90 built on a Browning 71 and have a Browning 1886 in 45/70. The 45/90 works well, but IMO is not a versatile as an 1886 rifle in 45/70. With the right bullets you can load a 45/70 to the same length as a 45/90.

You can increase versatility by using normal length 45/70 brass and shorter Hornady brass. My 45/70 still has the stock factory no throat chamber.
45/70 brass makes lighter loads much easier than trying to do the same in longer 45/90 brass.

If I’m not mistaken @JFE will know exactly how these work in real life & know it doesn’t really compare to a proper loaded DG cartridge, even with excellent shot placement ?