Interesting interview on game farming and Put and Take

[375Fox]

I thought some of you might find this interesting and informative. I think my opinions on put and take are well documented here. I wouldn’t hunt on an operation like this. The trophy would have no value to me, but I appreciate his honesty about how he operates. I see too often here it’s downplayed to only a “few bad operators” to downplay how common these practices are and the phrase self sustaining is used very flexibly for better marketing. You can listen for yourself if interested. I’d suggest starting at interview at 4 minutes to avoid the commentary.

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

I thought some of you might find this interesting and informative. I think my opinions on put and take are well documented here. I wouldn’t hunt on an operation like this. The trophy would have no value to me, but I appreciate his honesty about how he operates. I see too often here it’s downplayed to only a “few bad operators” to downplay how common these practices are and the phrase self sustaining is used very flexibly for better marketing. You can listen for yourself if interested. I’d suggest starting at interview at 4 minutes to avoid the commentary.

I've been wondering if this interview would make it onto AH. I saw it a few days ago and it stirred a number of thoughts. As I write this very sentence, it occurs to me that I'm about to blather on here and make a rather long post. So there's fair warning to move on, or accept my appreciation if you've spent the time to read the post.

For those unaware of an issue going on in the world of hunting in RSA and with PHASA, well suffice to say there is one. As such with Mr Du Bruyn being the President of PHASA finds himself in the middle of it all. I am NOT going to comment about that issue to include any opinion on Tony and his role within that issue. Please do not take that as having a position one way or the other in regards to this if you are aware of it.

In regards to "put and take", I find that phrase to be used a bit too broadly. Perhaps it's just me, but I believe when people hear that phrase at best they're thinking of a trout pond and in the worst case shooting an animal in a pen. Either way, a very negative connotation.

I think that Tony touches on this in both discussing springbok captured from the Jules of the Karoo operation and sable raised on farms.

As he stated, he purchases springbok from Jules, springbok which have been captured, not raised in a yard. Those rams which have been running free (at least within the confines of the Jules ranch) and have experienced hunting pressure. Some of these same rams are then transplanted to Tony's place where he ear tags them to prevent them from being shot and to spread their optimal genes for a year or two. This will diversify the gene pool and hopefully result in more than a few trophy springbok born naturally to ewes already present on the ranch.

At the other end of the spectrum, he discusses sable. They do seem to have an easy time becoming habituated to humans and losing all fear of us two legged critters. I have seen one sable bull that was quite huge, but I had no interest in hunting him. I was more inclined to offer him a beer as I walked within 20 yards of him, but since he completely ignored me and didn't even say hello, I decided against it. I have also seen sable in RSA that spotted the truck a mile out and headed for parts unknown. On one hunt with Jacques @JKO HUNTING SAFARIS, there was a sable not only highly spooky of humans, he also seemed to know how to use the terrain to make it impossible to even put a sneak on.

So what's my point? I don't think it's fair to castigate the entire hunting industry in RSA as put and take in the sense that's it's just shooting docile animals raised in a pen. Could it be the case? Certainly, but this is why you should do your homework and separate the good from the bad as you should in any other hunting destination. In the end if you're idea of what is not put and take means there is absolutely zero human intervention, then likely RSA is not going to satisfy that requirement.

But wait....there's more.......

So the only other option is to go hunt truly wild Africa. There the animals present are there through completely natural means. They reach trophy size in a totally natural way. There's no human intervention that affects population and/or trophy quality, or is there?

Consider that bore holes are often drilled to provide water to the wildlife in wild areas. Consider that the government and/or operator funds anti-poaching efforts in order to prevent taking of wildlife by the local peoples in those wild concessions. Consider in places like Zimbabwe that tuskless elephant cows are hunted to remove what we humans consider to be inferior genes. Consider that most operators are selective in the trophies taken, resisting the urge typically to take the first specimen seen and instead be choosy and take older animals that have had a chance to breed. Consider that strict quotas are enforced to endure a stable healthy population of the various fauna or to recover other species that are at a low population. And finally consider the quota system and anti-poaching efforts, that the animals don't see as much hunting pressure as they might in RSA, which often leads to an easier hunt as the animals are not so spooky.

Would I characterize the wild areas as put and take? Of course not, but I also would not say these area are free from effects of human manipulation of the environment. And in some aspects makes the hunt less challenging at times.

My point in this was not to advocate RSA over anywhere else in Africa or vice versa. That said lets not fool ourselves into thinking we as people are not impacting these area in order to make the hunt more successful in not only taking animals but also in improving trophy quality.

As Tony stated early in the interview he sells animals, plain and simple. In order to sell those animals he first has to have them and in reality he also needs to have proper trophies. Is it not the same outside of RSA? If it is, you can be certain the operators and/or govt, i.e. the financial stakeholders are going to take measures to ensure their financial success. A fact which does not bother me in the least.

I've run out of breath finally, diatribe over.

 

[Wishfulthinker580]

What was the wrong horse that PHASA bet on?

 

[sgt_zim]

I've been wondering if this interview would make it onto AH. I saw it a few days ago and it stirred a number of thoughts. As it write this very sentence, it occurs to me that I'm about to blather on here and make a rather long post. So there's fair warning to move on, or accept my appreciation if you've spent the time to read the post.

For those unaware of an issue going on in the world of hunting in RSA and with PHASA, well suffice to say there is one. As such with Mr Du Bruyn being the President of PHASA finds himself in the middle of it all. I am NOT going to comment about that issue to include any opinion on Tony and his role within that issue. Please do not take that as having a position one way or the other in regards to this if you are aware of it.

In regards to "put and take", I find that phrase to be used a bit too broadly. Perhaps it's just me, but I believe when people hear that phrase at best they're thinking of a trout pond and in the worst case shooting an animal in a pen. Either way, a very negative connotation.

I think that Tony touches on this in both discussing springbok captured from the Jules of the Karoo operation and sable raised on farms.

As he stated, he purchases springbok from Jules, springbok which have been captured, not raised in a yard. Those rams which have been running free (at least within the confines of the Jules ranch) and have experienced hunting pressure. Some of these same rams are then transplanted to Tony's place where he ear tags them to prevent them from being shot and to spread their optimal genes for a year or two. This will diversify the gene pool and hopefully result in more than a few trophy springbok born naturally to ewes already present on the ranch.

At the other end of the spectrum, he discusses sable. They do seem to have an easy time becoming habituated to humans and losing all fear of us two legged critters. I have seen one sable bull that was quite huge, but I had no interest in hunting him. I was more inclined to offer him a beer as I walked within 20 yards of him, but since he completely ignored me and didn't even say hello, I decided against it. I have also seen sable in RSA that spotted the truck a mile out and headed for parts unknown. On one hunt with Jacques @JKO HUNTING SAFARIS, there was a sable not only highly spooky of humans, he also seemed to know how to use the terrain to make it impossible to even put a sneak on.

So what's my point? I don't think it's fair to castigate the entire hunting industry in RSA as put and take in the sense that's it's just shooting docile animals raised in a pen. Could it be the case? Certainly, but this is why you should do your homework and separate the good from the bad as you should in any other hunting destination. In the end if you're idea of what is not put and take means there is absolutely zero human intervention, then likely RSA is not going to satisfy that requirement.

But wait....there's more.......

So the only other option is to go hunt truly wild Africa. There the animals present are there through completely natural means. They reach trophy size in a totally natural way. There's no human intervention that affects population and/or trophy quality, or is there?

Consider that bore holes are often drilled to provide water to the wildlife in wild areas. Consider that the government and/or operator funds anti-poaching efforts in order to prevent taking of wildlife by the local peoples in those wild concessions. Consider in places like Zimbabwe that tuskless elephant cows are hunted to remove what we humans consider to be inferior genes. Consider that most operators are selective in the trophies taken, resisting the urge typically to take the first specimen seen and instead be choosy and take older animals that have had a chance to breed. Consider that strict quotas are enforced to endure a stable healthy population of the various fauna or to recover other species that are at a low population. And finally consider the quota system and anti-poaching efforts, that the animals don't see as much hunting pressure as they might in RSA, which often leads to an easier hunt as the animals are not so spooky.

Would I characterize the wild areas as put and take? Of course not, but I also would not say these area are free from effects of human manipulation of the environment. And in some aspects makes the hunt less challenging at times.

My point in this was not to advocate RSA over anywhere else in Africa or vice versa. That said lets not fool ourselves into thinking we as people are not impacting these area in order to make the hunt more successful in not only taking animals but also in improving trophy quality.

As Tony stated early in the interview he sells animals, plain and simple. In order to sell those animals he first has to have them and in reality he also needs to have proper trophies. Is it not the same outside of RSA? If it is, you can be certain the operators and/or govt, i.e. the financial stakeholders are going to take measures to ensure their financial success. A fact which does not bother me in the least.

I've run out of breath finally, diatribe over.

Except for the handful of animals around the lodge, I did not encounter any human-habituated animals on my hunt last year in Limpopo. The only animals that entertained our presence for more than a moment or 2 were the cape buffalo. They hung around long enough to give us the "Capstick stare," then ambled off into the jess.

It took me 3 days to see any zebra from any nearer than a couple hundred yards and from any angle other than staring at their asses in a cloud of dust, hooves thundering.

I will say the animals seemed somewhat habituated to the PH's bakkie, but as soon as doors were opened and boots were on the ground, they took off.

**********edit************
Meant to add - I think we hunted 8 or 9 different properties, the smallest of which was around 12 - 15K acres, so about 20-ish square miles. Lots of driving, glassing, and walking.

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

What was the wrong horse that PHASA bet on?

That subject would be deserving of its own thread. However, I do not feel I have all of the facts in regards to that issue and for this reason will not start a thread about it. Perhaps someone else will.

 

[uplander01]

Simple fact is, SA is relatively easy and affordable to get to from the USA, and with the current game ranch system a 5-7k + 3k airfare= 10k, 1 week hunt can be offered for multiple animals. Call it a gateway drug, call it whatever you want, but reality is that’s as far as a lot of guys africa experience will ever go. Wilderness areas in Africa are really expensive to do, spending 30-40k on a 10-14 day hunt just isn’t possible for the majority of people. Some guys spend 50-100k or more on hunts over there is the Caprivi, Tanzania, Uganda, Botswana, Mozambique, that just isn’t possible for the majority of people into this sort of thing. I think that will become painfully obvious in about 10-20 years when all the wealthy 60 and 70 something year old guys you see walking around at the sci show start dying off, maybe I’m wrong, I hope I am. I feel lucky to have been able to hunt some wilderness areas, a couple of the coutadas in Moz and a great area in Zimbabwe during some years that I had good cash flow. If I had kids, was paying for college, or even wanted to leave my wife and step kids anything other than life insurance money I wouldn’t be able to do any of it and I’m in my mid 50’s with an above average income, and little debt ratio relative to my income. So IMO, the SA model is the future for us mere mortal, and absolutely necessary for the future of safari.

 

[wesheltonj]

Where I hunted in RSA, it was 24K continuous acres and three hunts a year. He too brought in animals for genetics and had ear tag as not to be shot. He also sold animals to other farms. Behind a fence, you are going to have to bring in animals for breeding.

 

[Wishfulthinker580]

Would like to know exactly what’s being argued over otherwise it’s just the sale old, tired, played out arguments being rehashed.

 

[375Fox]

Would like to know exactly what’s being argued over otherwise it’s just the sale old, tired, played out arguments being rehashed.

I don’t know if anything is being argued. It’s a 30 minute interview where he lays out his business practices. You can call it put and take or high levels of supplementation. There have been lots of arguments here on AH back and forth over years about South African game farming practices, but you can hear it from the president of PHASA.

 

[Hookboy88]

I have been waiting on the statement PHASA released about wanting to criminally charge the guy that conducted that interview to surface here

 

[Vintageguy]

I see it from the standpoint of all game being hunted for profit are managed. Methods of the hunt are most important to me. I’ve hunted large game fenced properties in South Africa and had fantastic experiences. I’ve been on free range guided hunts in the western United States that I wouldn’t care to repeat. I’ve experienced free range hunting where I looked at and spent the majority of my time on less than 1000 acres because the game was concentrated in that area. I’ve also spent days hunting every nook and cranny of 16000 acres before having seen it all. You can shoot any particular animal over bait, feed, or water, wild or raised. You can also shun those methods.
I have decided my next African hunt will be on as remote and wild of an area as I can find. I know several who have done the same, caught the Africa bug on well managed fenced property and then went on to the managed wild areas. The thought of that has me as excited as I was about my first trip. I found the attached list of common African game species and their home ranges interesting. Explains why you always seem to see impala in the same general area.

 

[Hookboy88]

If this is true, It would be interesting to see what they could really charge him with. However, if they did it would also be really damning to PHASA to me. If what he said is that damaging it may be time to make some industry changes.

It’s in response to another one of his videos where he goes after PHASA for what he deemed to be some unethical behavior.

He released the video while in RSA on a safari and they put out a statement that they were addressing the issue with their attorneys and would be looking at pressing criminal charges.

I was booked for a hunt this year in RSA. Seen the statement they released and talked to my travel agent about rebooking to Namibia.

 

[Hunt anything]

I see it from the standpoint of all game being hunted for profit are managed. Methods of the hunt are most important to me. I’ve hunted large game fenced properties in South Africa and had fantastic experiences. I’ve been on free range guided hunts in the western United States that I wouldn’t care to repeat. I’ve experienced free range hunting where I looked at and spent the majority of my time on less than 1000 acres because the game was concentrated in that area. I’ve also spent days hunting every nook and cranny of 16000 acres before having seen it all. You can shoot any particular animal over bait, feed, or water, wild or raised. You can also shun those methods.
I have decided my next African hunt will be on as remote and wild of an area as I can find. I know several who have done the same, caught the Africa bug on well managed fenced property and then went on to the managed wild areas. The thought of that has me as excited as I was about my first trip. I found the attached list of common African game species and their home ranges interesting. Explains why you always seem to see impala in the same general area.
View attachment 696597

That’s a very interesting chart. On my second day of hunting in Mozambiques Coutada 10, which no way can be considered not wild, my Ph stopped the truck and said “ let’s go for a walk, there is a great sable that lives here along with a bull with one horn” twenty minutes later we found them exactly where the trackers thought the would be.
I would think that some animals with smaller home ranges could live out their lives without ever seeing a fence.

 

[Mtn_Infantry]

I thought some of you might find this interesting and informative. I think my opinions on put and take are well documented here. I wouldn’t hunt on an operation like this. The trophy would have no value to me, but I appreciate his honesty about how he operates. I see too often here it’s downplayed to only a “few bad operators” to downplay how common these practices are and the phrase self sustaining is used very flexibly for better marketing. You can listen for yourself if interested. I’d suggest starting at interview at 4 minutes to avoid the commentary.

I’m greatly summarizing but …. Isn’t this one of the guys involved in a lawsuit with a well known South African Outfitter (intentionally leaving the name out) who apparently used a helicopter to try and recover a wounded buffalo and then pushed some buffalo towards said client (struggled to walk due to weight/heath) and the same outfitter later took him to Zim on an elephant hunt despite not being a licensed Zim PH or Outfitter?

 

[Safari Dave]

There are hardly any Wildlife Management Area (WMA's) east of the Rocky Mountains that are larger than 25K acres.

As soon as animals leave WMA's for private property, they can (almost) be shot on sight, during regular hunting seasons.

IMO, the average RSA "ranch" is a more sporting (and far more safe, situation than an eastern, public land WMA.)

Plus, you don't have to deal with hundreds of other hunters vying for the same animals.


In Eastern US WMA's you almost have to take the first legal animal that comes along, or someone else will take it.

On RSA ranches, you have the option of passing on smaller trophies, in hopes of taking a larger trophy.

If you do this on eastern US WMA's, you will probably not get another chance on a 7 day hunt.

 

[DLSJR]

I see it from the standpoint of all game being hunted for profit are managed. Methods of the hunt are most important to me. I’ve hunted large game fenced properties in South Africa and had fantastic experiences. I’ve been on free range guided hunts in the western United States that I wouldn’t care to repeat. I’ve experienced free range hunting where I looked at and spent the majority of my time on less than 1000 acres because the game was concentrated in that area. I’ve also spent days hunting every nook and cranny of 16000 acres before having seen it all. You can shoot any particular animal over bait, feed, or water, wild or raised. You can also shun those methods.
I have decided my next African hunt will be on as remote and wild of an area as I can find. I know several who have done the same, caught the Africa bug on well managed fenced property and then went on to the managed wild areas. The thought of that has me as excited as I was about my first trip. I found the attached list of common African game species and their home ranges interesting. Explains why you always seem to see impala in the same general area.
View attachment 696597

Based on what you’ve said, you should give serious consideration to booking a hunt on the Selous Game Reserve in Tanzania. It’s as wild as you’ll ever see, great big game country! If you search, you can find my hunt report from September of 2023 about my Selous hunt. I’m planning another hunt on the same block with Alan Vincent for my son and I in 2028., but a bigger, even longer hunt next time.

You’d love the Selous!

 

[Safari Dave]

There is almost nothing completely "wild" in the entire world anymore.

We all need to recognize that.

I've been to some very remote places, only to find "native people" wearing Nike and Adidas shoes and western team sports T-Shirts.

"Put & Take" hunting is almost universal, exempt for a few hardy species, that can survive almost anywhere.


You can either accept it, of be prepared to spend a million $ trying to take them on their native soil.

And, if you take them where they are native, they won't be very impressive (Red Stag, for example)


Sad, but (I'm afraid) true...

 

[Safari Dave]

I guess I need to start saving for the Selous!

 

[mark-hunter]

Good honest interview. Thanks for sharing!

 

[375Fox]

There is almost nothing completely "wild" in the entire world anymore.

We all need to recognize that.

I've been to some very remote places, only to find "native people" wearing Nike and Adidas shoes and western team sports T-Shirts.

"Put & Take" hunting is almost universal, exempt for a few hardy species, that can survive almost anywhere.


You can either accept it, of be prepared to spend a million $ trying to take them on their native soil.

And, if you take them where they are native, they won't be very impressive (Red Stag, for example)


Sad, but (I'm afraid) true...

Did you watch the interview before commenting? This is the kind of attitude that bothers me. Has the 21st century reached every point on globe somehow? Yes. You’ll find plastic pollution and signs of people everywhere if you look unfortunately. Do fully intact ecosystems still exist? Yes they do. Put and take hunting is not universal. On the African continent it’s limited to South Africa and a much lesser extent Namibia. Anywhere else game is not available to be easily brought in without a large undertaking, so must be managed on sustainable quotas or will take years to recover even on fenced areas. Being behind a fence doesn’t define put and take to me, but bringing in trophies each year as he describes to allow an off take greater than what would otherwise be sustainable to bring in more clients does. If you know what you are getting into great, but many don’t understand the scale or how common it is.

I’ve hunted a lot of game in a lot of countries. I’ve yet to spend millions. If you believe you have to I’d suggest more research. Game farming practices have made South Africa very affordable and easily accessible, but saying put and take is the only way is a ridiculous idea. Game farms can be managed on sustainable quotas too and many are. They are the “purists” he refers to in interview.

I’d also look into red stags in NW Spain, Romania, Turkey before suggesting the quality of all red stags is poor. Other regions have good genetics as well but might get supplemental feed. It’s like saying all whitetails in the North America outside a high fence are poor quality and ignoring Ohio, Illinois, Saskatchewan, Alberta, and others with the best native genetics. I’ve taken 18” springbok, 40” gemsbok, 45” buffalo, and others free range so it bothers me to see individuals say native game won’t be impressive. It depends on the area.