Interested in a speed test...

[Forrest Halley]

Let's discuss the details of a proper speed test between rifles. I'd like to see the difference between actions. There's been a great deal of talk about being fast and keeping up with bolts or doubles. Just how much of it is hot air? I'm interested in seeing how quickly I can get hits with real loads.

I propose a six shot challenge. I figure this puts a fairly level playing field as it should put most everyone into a reloading situation. Time from first shot to last is what I'm looking for.

I propose a range of 25 yards/meters. I think this is long enough to require fundamentals, but short enough to go fast.

I propose a target of a simple paper plate. It's cheap and for the most part universal...and should provide reasonable contrast for most sights.

I propose a minimum power factor of factory .375 H&H 300 grain at 2500 fps or handloaded equivalent. I'd like to see some sort of recoil dealt with and not just your sweetest target load.

I also propose the weight of the rifle be stated along with the caliber and load/load data.

We've all seen the videos of comparison before, but they seem to lack true skill with the arms. There's a hesitation or an unfamiliarity that limits results. I'm curious to see what talent lies within. Worst thing that could happen is that you get better at operating your rifle.

 

[crs]

Darn! Sounds like fun, but my big bores do not shoot that fast with factory ammo ( lower bullet velocity ), but they do reload PDQ.

Have fun and do publish the results.

 

[CoElkHunter]

I don’t know Forrest, I’ll bet that M1 Garand modified to .458WM that Pheroze posted a photo of on another thread, could hold all six of your proposed six contest rounds? No reloading at all and in a DG caliber? Just saying? Ha! Ha!

 

[Hogpatrol]

Not me but in thirty seconds with a single shot bolt action, ten shots in three inches at 1000 yards has been done more than once.

 

[CoElkHunter]

Not me but in thirty seconds with a single shot bolt action, ten shots in three inches at 1000 yards has been done more than once.

Very cool video! AND Forrest didn’t specify you couldn’t do this very same thing with only ever touching the rifle bolt at 25 yds? But, he did specify .375 or larger caliber? .50 BMG? Ha! Ha! My money would still be on the Garand? At 25 yards, I’m guessing 1-2 seconds per round with open sights and no reloading?

 

[Forrest Halley]

Darn! Sounds like fun, but my big bores do not shoot that fast with factory ammo ( lower bullet velocity ), but they do reload PDQ.

Have fun and do publish the results.

Power factor is simply velocity multiplied by bullet weight...
300x2500=750,000
300 gr bullet at 2500 fps
350 gr bullet at 2143fps
400 gr bullet at 1875 fps
450 gr bullet at 1667 fps
500 gr bullet at 1500 fps

 

[Forrest Halley]

I don’t know Forrest, I’ll bet that M1 Garand modified to .458WM that Pheroze posted a photo of on another thread, could hold all six of your proposed six contest rounds? No reloading at all and in a DG caliber? Just saying? Ha! Ha!

Six rounds is when my .375 becomes too hot for me to shoot anymore without an emergency need and that is why I picked that number. I didn't think about semi autos and I figured Hoss Delgado and his 7 shooter would be MIA.

 

[Wyatt Smith]

My BRNO will hold six, 5 down and one up the pipe. No reloading required. However I will use my Winchester which holds 4. I’ll have a friend time it and report back. One thing, I send a 300 grain at 2480 so I will miss the power factor by a little.

 

[CoElkHunter]

Six rounds is when my .375 becomes too hot for me to shoot anymore without an emergency need and that is why I picked that number. I didn't think about semi autos and I figured Hoss Delgado and his 7 shooter would be MIA.

Ha! Ha! Where has Hoss Delgado been anyway? I’ve missed his threads/posts here on AH. He always has interesting things to share. Oh well, I believe Forrest you need to specify your speed contest from a hunting shooting position and not from a bench, otherwise you’ll have more videos like this one?

 

[Forrest Halley]

AND Forrest didn’t specify you couldn’t do this very same thing with only ever touching the rifle bolt at 25 yds? But, he did specify .375 or larger caliber? .50 BMG? Ha! Ha! My money would still be on the Garand? At 25 yards, I’m guessing 1-2 seconds per round with open sights and no reloading?

I did not think I needed to specify that you needed to shoot this off hand, but you should try to. No tickling of bolts and triggers in benchrests or leadsleds. You must ride the recoil like a shooter should.

I'd actually like to see another person shoot a Barrett offhand. I've done it and it's not easy at 35lbs. 1-2 secs a shot for a .458 M-1? I thought it was a BAR Mk2? Either way...slow.

 

[CoElkHunter]

My BRNO will hold six, 5 down and one up the pipe. No reloading required. However I will use my Winchester which holds 4. I’ll have a friend time it and report back. One thing, I send a 300 grain at 2480 so I will miss the power factor by a little.

Open sights or scope? At 25 yds/meters, I would personally use open sights? No restrictions though (yet) from Forrest’s Speed Contest rules?

 

[Wyatt Smith]

I’ll probably try both. Gotta love QD rings.

 

[Wyatt Smith]

Reload from the belt, or between the fingers.

 

[perttime]

Even just two shots at 25 yards/meters, shot to shot.... What size paper plate?

It doesn't count if you miss the plate.

There's shot timer apps available for phones, if you don't have a dedicated device.

 

[CoElkHunter]

I did not think I needed to specify that you needed to shoot this off hand, but you should try to. No tickling of bolts and triggers in benchrests or leadsleds. You must ride the recoil like a shooter should.

I'd actually like to see another person shoot a Barrett offhand. I've done it and it's not easy at 35lbs. 1-2 secs a shot for a .458 M-1? I thought it was a BAR Mk2? Either way...slow.

No the .458 Mark 2 was for sale on Gun Broker awhile back. The Garand was apparently modified by a company that makes them into .458WM. Pheroze posted a photo of this on another thread. Ok, ONE second for the Garand? But in .458? It still would recoil off the target sight picture for a bit?

 

[CoElkHunter]

Like having handicaps in Golf (which I don’t play), would there be an adjustment in score for using a larger bore or double rifle? I mean somebody using a double in say .470 NE couldn’t compete with the guy using the .458 Garand?

 

[perttime]

I'm thinking this would be more of a scientific experiment than a contest.

That's why I'm suggesting times for 2 shots (in addition to 6?), and using a shot timer device or app, for accurate timing.

 

[Forrest Halley]

Folks my main goal was to see what the guns do when they are run well. No alibis no, hiccupped runs as excuses, just run to the best of your abilities.

Use whatever sighting device you would normally use.

Two shots is not what I'm interested in. I don't want to see a double look good without having to reload. The idea was for everyone to do a reload. Mandatory reload somewhere during the six shots to keep it even. Obviously if you want to include all your splits that is fine.

Two of the four runs I am planning will be with single shot Ruger No. 1's before anyone makes any statements about how unfair it is to have to reload.

• No handicaps. I am asking for a rifle weight and load data to be stated so that we can estimate free recoil. It will then be quite obvious that a 9.5# .458 Lott required more technique than a 14# .375 H&H to pull off a similar time.

 

[crs]

Forrest, Whether intentional or not, your power factor table opened the door for big bore leverguns and slide /pump action rifles:
400 gr bullet at 1875 fps
450 gr bullet at 1667 fps
500 gr bullet at 1500 fps

This sort of comparison has been done many times over the years on Leverguns.com and the bolt actions always lose by at least 2/1, sometimes 3/1.
My favorite comparison was by an experienced African hunter who compared the timing to killing a lion charging from 50 yards away. Good time for a double rifle and accurate shooting!
"QUOTE"
LEVEL FOUR: The more modern '86s by both Winchester and Browning are so strong that powder room becomes the major factor in reloading for these big leveractions...almost.

The all-around velocity champ, AA2015, under the 350 grain Speer will push that bullet out of a 24 inch barrel at an easy 2300 fps and an astounding 4100 plus lbs. of muzzle energy. You are talking very close to the African Rifle power levels of just a few years ago. Switch to the Hornady 350 grain heavy jacketed bullet and it is a thick skin killer of African game with a much faster second shot then any other rifle, other than a double.

With this load, and a lot of practice, I was able to put four shots into a 100 yard, 12 inch circle, faster then a bolt action rifleman could put two into the same circle. Firing from the count of three I was able to fire two rounds before he could clear the spent shell from his first shot. It takes a lion about two seconds to charge you from 50 yards. I could hit one easily twice. And this load would turn a lion inside out.
"END QUOTE"

Still look forward to the results, but as I know the answer I will just save my ammo for hunting.

 

[Forrest Halley]

Forrest, Whether intentional or not, your power factor table opened the door for big bore leverguns and slide /pump action rifles.

Still look forward to the results, but as I know the answer I will just save my ammo for hunting.

I intentionally left the door open. I have read many books where lever actions were used to hunt DG.

What slide/pump actions make .375 & Up?

I'm not looking for a competition. I'm looking for good data from good riflemen that are proficient with their rifles. Most of what I have seen is folks who have the money to own the gun, but aren't very good at operating it. I'm also looking to inspire folks to use their rifles and enjoy getting more proficient with them.