Ideal speed for 400 gr A Frame in 404J

[Berettaco]

Good morning all,
I’m getting some loads developed for my trip this spring - specifically for my 404J (Bauska Mauser, 24” barrel) I’m taking for buff. I’m referencing African Dangerous Game Cartridges by Pierre Van der Walt and using IMR 4895. I know every rifle is different, so as most do, I start on the low end of the load data and work up. (Min load 80 max load 83 gr) Using a 400gr A Frame and 81 grains of IMR4895 I shot a few rounds this morning and the average speed was 2,450. There were no pressure signs with the brass or gun and the groups were great so I’m inclined to stay where it is - but my question is how fast is too fast for this bullet? Should I back it off a touch to get down to 2,200- 2,300fps?
thank you

 

[IvW]

Ideal is below 2400 fps....with 2300 fps being perfect.so anything from 2200 to 2400 fps

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

Good morning all,
I’m getting some loads developed for my trip this spring - specifically for my 404J (Bauska Mauser, 24” barrel) I’m taking for buff. I’m referencing African Dangerous Game Cartridges by Pierre Van der Walt and using IMR 4895. I know every rifle is different, so as most do, I start on the low end of the load data and work up. (Min load 80 max load 83 gr) Using a 400gr A Frame and 81 grains of IMR4895 I shot a few rounds this morning and the average speed was 2,450. There were no pressure signs with the brass or gun and the groups were great so I’m inclined to stay where it is - but my question is how fast is too fast for this bullet? Should I back it off a touch to get down to 2,200- 2,300fps?
thank you

The A-Frame is a tough bullet. I can't see 2450fps close to the muzzle being any issue for that bullet. I'd go with the most accurate load regardless of the velocity you're getting in that 80-83gr range you loaded for.

 

[Nevada Mike]

Good post and replies. I'll keep watching...

 

[DWB]

I run mine at about 2290fps from a 24" Barrel.

Bullet does well at this speed and perfect for Buffalo.

 

[Berettaco]

I’m getting great accuracy so I’ll just let it be and load up a few boxes

 

[Proneshooter]

Put the first shot in the proper place, that is what is important.

 

[One Day...]

... but my question is how fast is too fast for this bullet? ...

To be very specific in answering your specific question:

1 - You are asking the right question. Impact speed is - I am tempted to write "used to be" - THE main variable in bullet performance. This was especially true with 1920 technology Kynoch bullets that tended to separate cup and core (softs) or to rivet (solids). This is still potentially a risk at high speed with modern bullets using the same technology, such as Woodleigh RNSN or Hornady DGX B.

2 - The reason why I wrote above "I am tempted to write used to be" is that some modern bullets seem to be impervious to impact speed. Two of the most notorious in that regard are the Swift A Frame and the Barnes TSX. The .416 Weatherby launches these at 2,700 fps and these two bullets have no performance issue at that speed. You will therefore be completely safe, Berettaco, with an A Frame or a TSX .404 load at 2,450 fps, from a bullet integrity perspective.

HOWEVER...

3- As to performance on game, I agree with IvW. There is a large body of evidence, well documented by very credible authors - I am thinking here specifically about Kevin "Doctari" Robertson who addresses this issue comprehensively in his book Africa's Most Dangerous - that indicates that not only speed in excess of 2,300 fps is not adding any benefit for DG hunting, but that it can actually be a liability. Specifically, a 400 gr .404 modern solid launched at 2,400 fps may pass through a buffalo lengthwise on a backup shot on a departing animal, and a 400 gr .404 modern soft (A Frame or TSX and equivalent) launched above 2,400 fps may pass through a buffalo sidewise on a broadside shot, with potential devastating effect on another animal behind it in a herd.

4- Also, keep in mind that one of the reasons the .404 did all the work, even through the .416 got all the glamour thanks to Ruark's tales of Selby's Rigby, is that the .404 actually did all its work, and gained its unique reputation among those in the know, at 2,150 fps, which made it a comparatively low recoil and extremely shootable DG caliber. Each will decide for their own whether this argument resonates with them, by a 400 gr .404 A Frame (or TSX) at 2,200 fps may be a more "balanced" load than at 2,450 fps...

 

[RockSlinger404]

4- Also, keep in mind that one of the reasons the .404 did all the work, even through the .416 got all the glamour thanks to Ruark's tales of Selby's Rigby, is that the .404 actually did all its work, and gained its unique reputation among those in the know, at 2,150 fps, which made it a comparatively low recoil and extremely shootable DG caliber. Each will decide for their own whether this argument resonates with them, by a 400 gr .404 A Frame (or TSX) at 2,200 fps may be a more "balanced" load than at 2,450 fps...

I shoot the 400gr A-Frames at 2200fps and couldn’t be happier with the results! I’m using Norma cases, CCI250 and VV N560.

In my rifle the Peregrine VRG1s shoot to the same POI, which makes for cheaper practise.

 

[Nhoro]

One Day and IvW pretty much summed it up. Faster than 2300 fps gains you very little in the performance and under 2150 fps, you start to lose performance. And ask any serious long range shooter, the higher the recoil, the worse the accuracy.

 

[Berettaco]

Got busy rearranging the reloading room and haven’t loaded up any more - I will back this load off to 2100-2200 FPS and see what the accuracy is, the recoil isn’t terrible but less recoil is appealing.

 

[Shootist43]

Attached is a photo of a 400 Gr. Swift A Frame recovered from an Eland I shot in 2018 with my 24" barreled 404 Jeffery. Velocity was exactly 2300 FPS.

 

[Berettaco]

@Shootist43 - hard to ask for better than that

 

[Shootist43]

Berettaco, my thoughts exactly. You didn't ask but this was Von Gruff's accuracy load for the 404J. Namely 84 Gr. of H 4350. I ran three shots over a chronograph, velocities were 2300, 2309 & 2306. BTW the group was sub-MOA to boot.

 

[Berettaco]

Excellent, I have a lot of H4350, I will try that load

 

[Shootist43]

Berettaco, do an AH search of that load and you will find that lots of AH members use it. So far, I haven't heard any complaints.

 

[Berettaco]

Greatly appreciate the info - thank you

 

[Shootist43]

Berettaco, here is a link to a writeup I posted previously. https://www.africahunting.com/threads/bullet-performance-database.37971/post-470209

 

[IvW]

Attached is a photo of a 400 Gr. Swift A Frame recovered from an Eland I shot in 2018 with my 24" barreled 404 Jeffery. Velocity was exactly 2300 FPS. View attachment 445162

Perfect killing speed.....