I joined the 404 Jeffery Club today

375 Ruger Fan

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Wow, like someone else said Jelous, I love .404j & I love M-70. I have heard good things about your gunsmith. May I ask one question how many rounds does the magazine hold? One possible recommendation I would purchase a spare extractor. I do not know if yours was opened a bit or not, but it is the only spare M-70 parts I keep. I have seen two break in 60yrs., although I have never had one break myself. Cheap insurance.

The mag holds three down. I've been wondering if it's okay to load one in the tube and close the bolt over it. I do it all the time with my Rugers.
 

Gert Odendaal

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For the last couple of years, anyone that's a regular on this site knows there has been a lot of positive comments and chatter on the 404 Jeffery. To be fair, that same statement can be made for..........pick a caliber. However, the 404 seemed to have a special place in African history and fills the spot in my gun battery for something bigger than my 375.

As many of you know, the two popular ways of achieving 404 nirvana is the CZ-550 or find a Winchester Model 70, preferably in one of the RUM cartridges, and have it re-barreled and a little other tweaking from a gunsmith.

I sent several PMs to other AH members, getting their opinions and input. In late January, I found a Win Mod 70 Super Grade in 300 RUM on Gunbroker. It had a reasonable "Buy Now" price on it, so I hit that button and about a week later I was holding a very nice rifle. The Super Grades do have nice wood!

View attachment 260471

My initial plan was to send the gun off to Hill Country Rifle. They advertise a $1500 accurizing package deal to rebarrel, bedding, trigger, etc. I called them up and they told me they didn't do 404 conversions any more, citing the difficulty of getting a 100% reliable DG gun. Okay, so moved onto plan B as soon as I figured out what exactly plan B was.

I called Wayne at AHR and he too declined, citing his CZ work took priority. I talked to 2-3 other GS and they were either reluctant to take the project on or extremely expensive.

I then gave Dennis Olson in Plains, MT a call. I first learned about Dennis in a RealGuns.com article on coverting a CZ 550 FS in 9.3 to 375 Ruger. I had saved that article and doing a Google search on Dennis learned that he had a well earned reputation for being a very good, full service gunsmith.

I shipped the gun to Dennis in early February. These were the details:

ITEM DESCRIPTION
1 Fit the new barrel
2 blueing so everything matches
3 stamping the barrel
4 Feed
5 Barrel recoil lug
6 Cross bolt
7 Inlet the barrel
8 bedding
9 NECG front and rear sights
10 drill and tap scope mounts and receiver for larger screws
11 barrel ring

Contact info for Dennis Olson. His wife, Glenda, handles most to the email communication.

DENNIS OLSON GUNSMITH
PO BOX 337
PLAINS MT 59859-0337

Physical address for UPS or FedEx deliveries
Dennis Olson
500 First St
Plains , MT 59859

Email: dgolson@montana.com
Phone: (406) 826-3790


Next thing, I ordered a barrel from Krieger and they would ship it direct to Dennis. I was told it would be about a 6 month delivery and it ended up being 8 month.

I also ordered some Tally QR bases and rings in 30 mm and also a box of 404 ammo (400 gr Swift A Frames) and sent them directly to Dennis. The ammo is needed for checking the feeding and also to test fire once all the work is done. Once Dennis received the barrel from Krieger, he had the rifle done in about 2 months. The box of ammo was returned with the rifle and there were four fired cartridges in the box.

While waiting the bulk of 2018, I started thinking about the scope for this rifle. I have Leupolds on most of my rifles, but I came across a good deal, here on AH, with another member selling a Swarovski PH 1.5 x 6 x 42 scope for a good price. When I received the scope, it was in the original box and looked brand new. The scope has the #4 reticle, so it's an ideal scope for this rifle.

Today, I mounted and bore sighted the scope and took a few photos. I hope to get it to the range on Wednesday and report back. For now, enjoy a few photos. BTW, once the scope was on, the rifle weighed in at a little over 10 lbs. It balanced (unloaded) at the hinge of the floor plate.

View attachment 260472

View attachment 260473

View attachment 260474

View attachment 260475

View attachment 260476
375 Ruger , I dub thee from now on your name will be 404 Winchester fan, great looking rifle, and it is a perfect rifle since it is a venerable 404 Jeffery, you are now in the most prominent society, the 404 Jeffery Society, ...enjoy this great , great caliber , the best designed caliber ever..(y)(y)(y)(y)(y)(y)
 

One Day...

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The mag holds three down. I've been wondering if it's okay to load one in the tube and close the bolt over it. I do it all the time with my Rugers.

Absolutely OK, if you do it the right way.

It is never a good idea to snap a claw extractor over a cartridge head, and depending on whether your extractor has been beveled or not, it may not even be possible. Pure Mauser actions will purposefully not allow this, based on the rationale that if the extractor can snap over the cartridge head going in, it can also theoretically do it coming out, hence negating the full-proof extraction requirement that the German Imperial Army had for their new rifle in the late 1890's (based on their experience with soft copper cases and black powder chambers fouling) and that motivated Paul Mauser to design the external claw extractor for the Mauser 1898 rifle the way he did.

HOWEVER, it is completely OK, if the magazine is deep enough - which most are, to depress enough round #4 into the mag (push it down about half the diameter of the round) and hold it there with your fingers as you move the bolt forward and the claw extractor picks it up and moves it forward.

Doing it this way has zero negative effect on the extractor, and the firing pin-blocking safety of the Win 70 makes it reasonably safe to have a round in the chamber as signs start to get warm on the spoor.

With a little practice (hold the 4th round down with the left hand fingers while cupping the rifle with the left hand from under, and pushing the bolt forward with the right hand), you can do this while walking :)
 
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Gert Odendaal

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.375 Ruger fan , all you need now is this item...I got this rifle stock magazine yesterday..I now can duplicate a few of them, take it to be engrave and sell a few..
6bb5eb6a-585b-45b4-a93d-822ff61da22f.jpg
9b4a6bab-2773-491f-bbfa-264ba4333e09.jpg
a73b06d4-d791-4d93-a56e-429be36168bb.jpg
6bb5eb6a-585b-45b4-a93d-822ff61da22f.jpg
9b4a6bab-2773-491f-bbfa-264ba4333e09.jpg
a73b06d4-d791-4d93-a56e-429be36168bb.jpg
 

Ray B

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I've been wondering if it's okay to load one in the tube and close the bolt over it.



The only time I've ever broken a part on a Model 70 was when I tried to direct chamber a 375RUM cartridge that had been formed from a 404 Jeffery. the rim hadn't been turned from .55 to .53 and there wasn't room between the ring and the rim for the extractor to snap over the rim, so the extractor broke where it thins. Normally chambering direct isn't a problem but if you have a rifle that is rechambered from a .532" cartridge to a .55" you may want to make sure that the extractor has been modified to the needed clearance.
 

Gert Odendaal

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The only time I've ever broken a part on a Model 70 was when I tried to direct chamber a 375RUM cartridge that had been formed from a 404 Jeffery. the rim hadn't been turned from .55 to .53 and there wasn't room between the ring and the rim for the extractor to snap over the rim, so the extractor broke where it thins. Normally chambering direct isn't a problem but if you have a rifle that is rechambered from a .532" cartridge to a .55" you may want to make sure that the extractor has been modified to the needed clearance.
Ray, that is the a description to explain why you need a Mauser action dangerous game build rifle in Africa....it is indestructible, the extractor is the best ever designed , it is controlled feed to ensure flawless cycling at high speed and under stressed conditions, you can ram the bolt home, wrench it open, it is just the perfect action.magazine design for Africa..(y)(y)(y):LOL:
 

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Ray, that is the a description to explain why you need a Mauser action dangerous game build rifle in Africa....it is indestructible, the extractor is the best ever designed , it is controlled feed to ensure flawless cycling at high speed and under stressed conditions, you can ram the bolt home, wrench it open, it is just the perfect action.magazine design for Africa..(y)(y)(y):LOL:

M70 is much the same in design, but you can brake an extractor on M98 as well. You can also short stroke a CRF action.
 

Gert Odendaal

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M70 is much the same in design, but you can brake an extractor on M98 as well. You can also short stroke a CRF action.
"Much" is a loosely used description Sir..rifle bolts in the control feed and push feed looks "much " the same.....from a gunsmiths point of view they are entirely apart and totally two separated systems.... the control feed is a system used specifically to build dangerous game rifles on...for dangerous game hunting...cycling the push feed action under pressure may just get yourself killed...the reason a person short stroking the Mauser action bolt is nothing to do with the features of the control feed action...only with the hunter`s non-capability to use the control feed action /shooting wrong...a person short stroking a Mauser rifle`s action when operating the rifle while hunting dangerous game is entirely the person`s onerous technique to shoot the Mauser rifle..(y)
Here is a video you need to take a look at..this usually happens with visiting dangerous game hunters here is South Africa..in this video, Pieter Nel will explain what you said "a person can short stroke a CFR as well" keep in mind it is the person who do it not he action/bolt of a Mauser action..
 

Gert Odendaal

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Opposite pole...I do not know of a dangerous game hunter who would prefer to hunt dangerous game with a push feed action rifle ...here in Africa , the prefer system is the control feed Mauser action /or copy of this action, the Pre 64 rifles...but it is still based on the control feed action, when you hunt Africa in the future..every one will suggest you use a Mauser rifle action hunting rifle..
 
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The CRF vs push feed debate has been bit to death on this forum. However, what I was saying is that, 1. M70 - pre 64 as well as the current version is a CRF design same as M98 and 2. that CRF action type is also prone to operator errors. Maybe I didn’t make myself clear on that, I’m not saying there’s something wrong with CRF design, but when incorrectly operated it can be jammed despite its brilliant features.
 

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Opposite pole...I do not know of a dangerous game hunter who would prefer to hunt dangerous game with a push feed action rifle ...here in Africa , the prefer system is the control feed Mauser action /or copy of this action, the Pre 64 rifles...but it is still based on the control feed action, when you hunt Africa in the future..every one will suggest you use a Mauser rifle action hunting rifle..

I’m perfectly happy to go after any game with a push feed Blaser R8 in appropriate chambering, although for some hunting I choose a double. There are PH’s who use Blasers too so obviously there are some DG hunters who don’t mind push feed rifles. From a practical point of view I can’t see anything that my CRF M70 can do that my R8 can’t.
 

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375 - nice looking gun you have there - welcome to the 404 Jeffery brotherhood. I think, all things considered, the 404 J probably killed more African game than any other cartridge in history. That is because it was standard issue in most African game departments. I probably use my 404 most out of all my guns - with 350 gr bullets it comfortably shoots out to 220 m (3" point blank range out to that distance) and nothing stands up to 400 or 450 gr bullets. I have two scopes on QR rings and each is sighted for 350 or 400 gr ammo. Swap ammo, swap scope and go
 

Gert Odendaal

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375 - nice looking gun you have there - welcome to the 404 Jeffery brotherhood. I think, all things considered, the 404 J probably killed more African game than any other cartridge in history. That is because it was standard issue in most African game departments. I probably use my 404 most out of all my guns - with 350 gr bullets it comfortably shoots out to 220 m (3" point blank range out to that distance) and nothing stands up to 400 or 450 gr bullets. I have two scopes on QR rings and each is sighted for 350 or 400 gr ammo. Swap ammo, swap scope and go
I think the "Legend of the One rifle Hunter "originates from a hunter who owned and use a 404 Jeffery in the earlier years in Africa...I am sure about this fact:LOL:;);)
 

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DSC_0770.JPG


Above is a photograph of the broken extractor alongside of an unbroken one. Clearly it is a CRF design and the reason that it broke was there was insufficient clearance for it to snap over the chambered round that had a rim .55" instead of .532". The problem didn't occur when loading from the magazine because the rim would slide up under/behind the extractor. So it would not be an issue when loading another cartridge in a DG situation, so I'm confused by all of the discussion.
 

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Ray, discussion about rifle related issues are good, there is never a right or a wrong, who`s rifle is better /or do shoot the most accurate..through discussions, perceived opinions, shared ideas, a constructive knowledge field of a person who wants to know something about anything is formed ...in every converting caliber process there are procedures a rifle builder/gunsmith needs to follow...working /enlarging a extractor is one of the procedures many make mistakes ...hence the discussion about control feed and push feed ....and probably reasons where the one is more functional in certain environments..and use purposefully for a specific event...for an example :
In a discussion in regards to conversion of a basic caliber to a 404 Jeffery another field was exposed/contemplating being fire forming .375 H&H Magnum brass to fit a 404 Jeffery chamber...a field not known by many...
 

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That is a good start, but I'm betting things will improve. Looks like you could take a couple of clicks right windage. Does your Lead Sled have a strap that holds down the front end? Restricting the upward motion will likely improve your vertical dispersion. If you haven't already read the following: https://www.ballisticstudies.com/Knowledgebase/Hold+that+Forend.html
Shootist, by the time the barrel kicks up, the bullet is way downrange already. No effect if the barrel kicks up
 

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Absolutely OK, if you do it the right way.

It is never a good idea to snap a claw extractor over a cartridge head, and depending on whether your extractor has been beveled or not, it may not even be possible. Pure Mauser actions will purposefully not allow this, based on the rationale that if the extractor can snap over the cartridge head going in, it can also theoretically do it coming out, hence negating the full-proof extraction requirement that the German Imperial Army had for their new rifle in the late 1890's (based on their experience with soft copper cases and black powder chambers fouling) and that motivated Paul Mauser to design the external claw extractor for the Mauser 1898 rifle the way he did.

HOWEVER, it is completely OK, if the magazine is deep enough - which most are, to depress enough round #4 into the mag (push it down about half the diameter of the round) and hold it there with your fingers as you move the bolt forward and the claw extractor picks it up and moves it forward.

Doing it this way has zero negative effect on the extractor, and the firing pin-blocking safety of the Win 70 makes it reasonably safe to have a round in the chamber as signs start to get warm on the spoor.

With a little practice (hold the 4th round down with the left hand fingers while cupping the rifle with the left hand from under, and pushing the bolt forward with the right hand), you can do this while walking :)
100% correct
 

Ray B

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...in every converting caliber process there are procedures a rifle builder/gunsmith needs to follow...working /enlarging a extractor is one of the procedures many make mistakes ..



The problem with the broken extractor was not that the gunsmith didn't machine it properly. The problem was that at the time 375 RUM ammunition was very scarce but I had a supply of 404 J. Since the 375RUM is a variation of the 404J it made sense that I could form some 404J into 375RUM, which I did, except for the slightly larger diameter base. The process and brass worked quite well as long as I loaded the 404j formed to 375RUM into the magazine and from there into the chamber via bolt push. The problem occurred due to direct loading and an oversize rim. I suspect the same problem would occur with the non-snap-over M978 extractors with direct chambered cartridges. Not long after the breakage a supply of 375RUM brass became available so no need to convert 404J brass to 375RUM. The solution was simple- I bought a 404J rifle from a fellow AH member and now can use factory 404J brass in the 404J & 375RUM factory brass in the 375RUM. Problem solved.
 

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Shootist, by the time the barrel kicks up, the bullet is way downrange already. No effect if the barrel kicks up



That is not correct. the rifle moved during the closed system portion of the recoil. The movement can be calculated by determining the balance point of the rifle with cartridge in chamber and the different balance point with the bullet at the muzzle with the powder distributed between the cartridge web and bullet base. That distance is the recoil prior to the bullets exit and is why rifle position, body alignment, muscle effort as well as rifle support/recoil direction are so crucial to repeatable accuracy.
 

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