How much practice with broadheads?

[mdwest]

I always get a kick out of the heavy arrow and FOC guys who want to tell me how I'm doing it wrong or how somehow I could be "better" without having any sort of clue just how much stuff I've killed in my lifetime.

The truth is we have little clue about you at all…. You’re new here…

Everyone is entitled to an opinion…it’s actually pretty common here for guys to have extremely different opinions on just about anything hunting related you can imagine..

The difference is when well known and established members have differing opinions people tend to listen to all sides of the argument/debate… there are very few inexperienced hunters here..I’d venture a guess that most have killed hundreds of animals across multiple continents and many US states… so their opinions, whether agreed with or not, are valued…

Until you’re established and known to be experienced and knowledgeable, folks likely won’t be listening quite as closely or valuing your inputs quite as much…

It’s just a matter of taking some time to become a member of the community, get to know some folks, and get known by some folks..

 

[firehuntfish]

I've killed well over 200 animals with a bow. My set up doesn't "appear to work", it actually works. You couldn't pay me to shoot 550g at my draw weight and length, unless I was targeting a select few animals. I always get a kick out of the heavy arrow and FOC guys who want to tell me how I'm doing it wrong or how somehow I could be "better" without having any sort of clue just how much stuff I've killed in my lifetime.

First of all, I didn't take @BSO Dave's posts as telling you are doing something wrong. I took them as someone trying to be helpful in offering solid advice.

Secondly, for those who don't know, @BSO Dave happens to be one of the most knowledgeable and experienced bowhunters I have ever known. He has an intimate understanding bowhunting and bow tuning and we are lucky to have his input here on this Forum. I had the pleasure and good fortunate to meet BSO Dave in camp on my first African safari back in 2009. I had just arrived in camp and shooting my bow at the practice range only to discover that my bow was shooting about 6" low and about foot to the right. Dave was kind enough to offer his help and had me tuned and shooting bullseyes again in about 10 minutes.

I have remained friends with Dave over these many years, and I have relied heavily on his advice and input. I owe much of my bowhunting success to that advice and experience. Although he is too modest to ever admit it, this is a guy who has his own bow shop and is a pro-staff member of at least a dozen archery equipment manufacturers. His shop walls are covered with plaques and trophies from 3-D competitions and his home is full of mounts from species world-wide. If my memory is correct, he has also taken dozens dangerous game animals with his bow. So, if we are qualifying folks here for the right to offer advice based on how long they have bowhunted or how many animals they have killed, I think it would be a safe bet that Dave exceeds any qualifications you or anyone else would expect. Bottom line is that this guy knows his stuff, and you would be well served to put your ego and arrogance aside to listen to his or other's advice who may have something of value to offer no matter how much experience you think you have personally.

On a personal note, you don't need to take BSO Dave's or anyone else's word for it, but it happens to be a scientific fact that heavier arrows with higher FOC's do create more momentum and out-penetrate lighter arrows with less FOC. This has been proven time and again, and actually quite easy for you to test for yourself if you cared to.

 

[Firebird]

this thread went exactly how I expected it would. . .

 

[BSO Dave]

I've killed well over 200 animals with a bow. My set up doesn't "appear to work", it actually works. You couldn't pay me to shoot 550g at my draw weight and length, unless I was targeting a select few animals. I always get a kick out of the heavy arrow and FOC guys who want to tell me how I'm doing it wrong or how somehow I could be "better" without having any sort of clue just how much stuff I've killed in my lifetime.

@Aimlowrobin

My intention was not to imply that you were doing anything wrong, or that I know more than you or anyone else... I was honestly only trying to offer some advice and input that I know would benefit and improve your current set-up... Out of all the equipment tweaks or recommendations I could make to any bowhunter, simply increasing the TAW and FOC are the two easiest and most inexpensive ways to drastically improve the penetration capabilities of any bow regardless of the draw weight and length. The improvement just happens to be significantly more notable with hunters who shoot lower poundage bows and shorter draw lengths. And, as FHF stated, this is not my personal opinion, but real, measurable results that have been well-established by extensive field testing from multiple credible sources not to mention the countless customers of mine who have realized incredible improvements in penetration.

If you choose to discount that data, it is certainly your prerogative to do so... Anyway, good luck in your future hunting endeavors and my best always!

I have remained friends with Dave over these many years, and I have relied heavily on his advice and input. I owe much of my bowhunting success to that advice and experience.

Very kind words Dan.. Much appreciated!

I'm glad you feel that I have helped... I have learned a lot from you as well!

 

[rookhawk]

I've killed well over 200 animals with a bow. My set up doesn't "appear to work", it actually works. You couldn't pay me to shoot 550g at my draw weight and length, unless I was targeting a select few animals. I always get a kick out of the heavy arrow and FOC guys who want to tell me how I'm doing it wrong or how somehow I could be "better" without having any sort of clue just how much stuff I've killed in my lifetime.

In one corner, anecdotal experience. In the other corner, physics.

 

[LadyKiller]

I've killed well over 200 animals with a bow. My set up doesn't "appear to work", it actually works. You couldn't pay me to shoot 550g at my draw weight and length, unless I was targeting a select few animals. I always get a kick out of the heavy arrow and FOC guys who want to tell me how I'm doing it wrong or how somehow I could be "better" without having any sort of clue just how much stuff I've killed in my lifetime.

Just an FYI for anyone reading this thread. I am one of those bowhunters limited in both draw length and draw weight. I shoot a 26" draw length at 48lbs.

The bow shop that put together my first set-up made arrows for me that weighed a total of 400 grains. My front of center weight was just under 15%. I shot a good amount of game in my first couple of years mostly consisting of whitetails, hogs and an antelope or two. Suffice to say, my results were inconsistent. Even with well-placed shots I was having some serious issues with penetration resulting in poor blood trails and more lost animals than was ethically acceptable to me. I was near to the point of giving up bow hunting all together.

My husband and I happened to be checking out a bow shop on a trip out west and got into a conversation with a couple of the techs there. I was telling them about my issues, and they all agreed that my issue was not with my short draw length or my lower draw weight but my arrow build. They all strongly recommending that I try an arrow build that would maximize all of the elements necessary to generate more momentum. They came up with an arrow that had significantly more overall weight and front of center weight. They also recommended a smaller shaft arrow and a different broadhead.

The final result was An Easton 5mm Legacy shaft with a weighted insert/outsert and a Muzzy Trocar fixed blade broadhead with a total weight of 570 grains and a 27% front of center weight. The combination was a game changer for me. Just about every shot since has been a pass-through or significant penetration to the opposite shoulder. The change in my point of impact was much less significant that I had feared. I am only losing about 2" at 30 yards with the added weight. Additionally, my bow is now dead silent, and my accuracy at longer distances is much better.

I took this set up to Africa and had incredible success resulting in complete pass throughs with game as a large as kudu. Admittedly, I know little about the physicals of it all, but the results I got from these changes in weight are truly undeniable. I cannot recommend going heavier highly enough to anyone man or woman who is limited by shorter draws and lighter draw weights.

 

[375 Ruger Fan]

Excellent post @LadyKiller!

 

[mdwest]

Just an FYI for anyone reading this thread. I am one of those bowhunters limited in both draw length and draw weight. I shoot a 26" draw length at 48lbs.

The bow shop that put together my first set-up made arrows for me that weighed a total of 400 grains. My front of center weight was just under 15%. I shot a good amount of game in my first couple of years mostly consisting of whitetails, hogs and an antelope or two. Suffice to say, my results were inconsistent. Even with well-placed shots I was having some serious issues with penetration resulting in poor blood trails and more lost animals than was ethically acceptable to me. I was near to the point of giving up bow hunting all together.

My husband and I happened to be checking out a bow shop on a trip out west and got into a conversation with a couple of the techs there. I was telling them about my issues, and they all agreed that my issue was not with my short draw length or my lower draw weight but my arrow build. They all strongly recommending that I try an arrow build that would maximize all of the elements necessary to generate more momentum. They came up with an arrow that had significantly more overall weight and front of center weight. They also recommended a smaller shaft arrow and a different broadhead.

The final result was An Easton 5mm Legacy shaft with a weighted insert/outsert and a Muzzy Trocar fixed blade broadhead with a total weight of 570 grains and a 27% front of center weight. The combination was a game changer for me. Just about every shot since has been a pass-through or significant penetration to the opposite shoulder. The change in my point of impact was much less significant that I had feared. I am only losing about 2" at 30 yards with the added weight. Additionally, my bow is now dead silent, and my accuracy at longer distances is much better.

I took this set up to Africa and had incredible success resulting in complete pass throughs with game as a large as kudu. Admittedly, I know little about the physicals of it all, but the results I got from these changes in weight are truly undeniable. I cannot recommend going heavier highly enough to anyone man or woman who is limited by shorter draws and lighter draw weights.

This is very encouraging...

My wifes rig is definitely on the light side of things.. she's at about 41 lbs at the moment, 25" draw.. and her arrows are 506gr with about 17% FOC.. the bow is insanely quiet...

but thats all a pretty hefty step up from her whitetail set up (41lbs, 25" draw, 370gr arrows, etc)...

Shes not planning on any big/heavy animals.. the plan is to limit herself to impala, blesbok, warthog, size beasts with her bow..

She's shooting single bevel 2 blade fixed broadheads which I hope will help out a good bit.. and intends on limiting shots to 20 yards or less... basically treating things like she is shooting a trad rig..

We've made a deal... anything on the smaller side walks close to the blind, she takes the shot.. anything wildebeest, zebra, etc sized comes in, I take the shot (Im shooting 70lbs, 31" draw, 650gr arrows, 20% FOC)...

 

[rookhawk]

Just an FYI for anyone reading this thread. I am one of those bowhunters limited in both draw length and draw weight. I shoot a 26" draw length at 48lbs.

The bow shop that put together my first set-up made arrows for me that weighed a total of 400 grains. My front of center weight was just under 15%. I shot a good amount of game in my first couple of years mostly consisting of whitetails, hogs and an antelope or two. Suffice to say, my results were inconsistent. Even with well-placed shots I was having some serious issues with penetration resulting in poor blood trails and more lost animals than was ethically acceptable to me. I was near to the point of giving up bow hunting all together.

My husband and I happened to be checking out a bow shop on a trip out west and got into a conversation with a couple of the techs there. I was telling them about my issues, and they all agreed that my issue was not with my short draw length or my lower draw weight but my arrow build. They all strongly recommending that I try an arrow build that would maximize all of the elements necessary to generate more momentum. They came up with an arrow that had significantly more overall weight and front of center weight. They also recommended a smaller shaft arrow and a different broadhead.

The final result was An Easton 5mm Legacy shaft with a weighted insert/outsert and a Muzzy Trocar fixed blade broadhead with a total weight of 570 grains and a 27% front of center weight. The combination was a game changer for me. Just about every shot since has been a pass-through or significant penetration to the opposite shoulder. The change in my point of impact was much less significant that I had feared. I am only losing about 2" at 30 yards with the added weight. Additionally, my bow is now dead silent, and my accuracy at longer distances is much better.

I took this set up to Africa and had incredible success resulting in complete pass throughs with game as a large as kudu. Admittedly, I know little about the physicals of it all, but the results I got from these changes in weight are truly undeniable. I cannot recommend going heavier highly enough to anyone man or woman who is limited by shorter draws and lighter draw weights.

Wonderful post @LadyKiller you were fortunate you had a bow shop that gave you good advice. I think they largely did. Your FOC and arrow weight is harnessing as much energy as possible from your bow while quieting the shot, an important thing with slower arrows.

The one thing I think would really help you out is buying broadheads that are cut on contact. Good broadheads are not available at most stores. The reason the trocar is limiting your arrow is that it isn't sharp as a blade, its a chisel trying to bore a hole rather than cut one. Further down the broadhead, you have multiple cutting surfaces that are creating drag/resistance during the cut. If you want more devastation and penetration, switching to a two blade, cut on contact, tanto tipped, single bevel broadhead that is wicked sharp will allow you do even more penetration with your otherwise exceptional arrow setup.

 

[375 Ruger Fan]

Wonderful post @LadyKiller you were fortunate you had a bow shop that gave you good advice. I think they largely did. Your FOC and arrow weight is harnessing as much energy as possible from your bow while quieting the shot, an important thing with slower arrows.

The one thing I think would really help you out is buying broadheads that are cut on contact. Good broadheads are not available at most stores. The reason the trocar is limiting your arrow is that it isn't sharp as a blade, its a chisel trying to bore a hole rather than cut one. Further down the broadhead, you have multiple cutting surfaces that are creating drag/resistance during the cut. If you want more devastation and penetration, switching to a two blade, cut on contact, tanto tipped, single bevel broadhead that is wicked sharp will allow you do even more penetration with your otherwise exceptional arrow setup.

 

[rookhawk]

View attachment 545513

Venti size with a half-caff no whip!

 

[LadyKiller]

The one thing I think would really help you out is buying broadheads that are cut on contact. Good broadheads are not available at most stores. The reason the trocar is limiting your arrow is that it isn't sharp as a blade, its a chisel trying to bore a hole rather than cut one. Further down the broadhead, you have multiple cutting surfaces that are creating drag/resistance during the cut. If you want more devastation and penetration, switching to a two blade, cut on contact, tanto tipped, single bevel broadhead that is wicked sharp will allow you do even more penetration with your otherwise exceptional arrow setup.

Thank you for your comment and advice!

The decision to go with that Muzzy Trocar was a fairly long process of experimentation and elimination. The same techs who recommended my arrow build also recommended choosing a 2-blade design of which I experimented with several. Of those that I tried out, the only 2-blade designs that tuned well from my set-up were those that had an unvented blade and at least a 3:1 length to width angle. I experimented quite a bit and shot a couple of animals with both a Magnus Stinger Killer B and the Helix 2-blade from Strickland Archery. Both were big improvements although I still wasn't getting full pass-throughs on a regular basis.

Another member here @firehuntfish was the one who actually recommended trying out the Muzzy Trocars based on the successes his wife was having shooting a very similar set-up. In practice testing, that broadhead was consistently out-penetrating the other 2 and definitely out-penetrated them in the field on actual flesh and bone. We think it's probably due to the very short, compact design along with a unique tip that seems to perform more like a tanto tip of a single bevel 2-blade design. Even though the Muzzy is a 3-balde, the overall mass is less than that of the 2-blades I was using which seems to have neutralized any friction loss I might have been getting from the 2-blades??

I realize the physics suggest the 2-blades should out-penetrate the others, but at least in my case, it doesn't appear to be true with this broadhead. That's why I adamantly believe that real field trial and error with multiple set-ups and components is so important. I have even gotten pass-throughs shooting through the scapula bone of a couple different animals either on the way in or out. The only downside that I have discovered with the Muzzy Trocar so far is blade durability which I guess is to be expected with less blade mass.

 

[npm352]

I have not shot a field point in four years. I live out west and hunt deer and elk archery every year, and also hunt overseas a little with my bow.

I don't shoot 3D anymore, so I practice with what I use hunting.

Recently, my state allowed mechanical broadheads. I shoot Sevr heads, which allow me to put a screw into the head to lock the blades shut for practice. I also keep a fixed blade on my quiver for closer in situations where I may be stringing it through brush.

I feel more confident knowing all my practice is with broadheads.

 

[mdwest]

Im doing some backyard shooting today.. launching 20 field points.. then will do one last round with broadheads.. mostly just shooting for confidence today and to get one last practice in before traveling... Ive already shot the broadhead Im hunting with several times and know its flying well and has the same POI as my field points (have also confirmed the same with my wifes broad heads).. .

We head to the airport in about 4 hours.. the bow is the last thing I am packing up.. Hopefully there will be a few success stories and some good game pics to share in a couple of weeks when we get back..

 

[Khaleesi]

Just an FYI for anyone reading this thread. I am one of those bowhunters limited in both draw length and draw weight. I shoot a 26" draw length at 48lbs.

The bow shop that put together my first set-up made arrows for me that weighed a total of 400 grains. My front of center weight was just under 15%. I shot a good amount of game in my first couple of years mostly consisting of whitetails, hogs and an antelope or two. Suffice to say, my results were inconsistent. Even with well-placed shots I was having some serious issues with penetration resulting in poor blood trails and more lost animals than was ethically acceptable to me. I was near to the point of giving up bow hunting all together.

My husband and I happened to be checking out a bow shop on a trip out west and got into a conversation with a couple of the techs there. I was telling them about my issues, and they all agreed that my issue was not with my short draw length or my lower draw weight but my arrow build. They all strongly recommending that I try an arrow build that would maximize all of the elements necessary to generate more momentum. They came up with an arrow that had significantly more overall weight and front of center weight. They also recommended a smaller shaft arrow and a different broadhead.

The final result was An Easton 5mm Legacy shaft with a weighted insert/outsert and a Muzzy Trocar fixed blade broadhead with a total weight of 570 grains and a 27% front of center weight. The combination was a game changer for me. Just about every shot since has been a pass-through or significant penetration to the opposite shoulder. The change in my point of impact was much less significant that I had feared. I am only losing about 2" at 30 yards with the added weight. Additionally, my bow is now dead silent, and my accuracy at longer distances is much better.

I took this set up to Africa and had incredible success resulting in complete pass throughs with game as a large as kudu. Admittedly, I know little about the physicals of it all, but the results I got from these changes in weight are truly undeniable. I cannot recommend going heavier highly enough to anyone man or woman who is limited by shorter draws and lighter draw weights.

Speaking as another female bowhunter shooting a lower draw weight and relatively short draw length I have experienced similar success by changing my arrows to heavier overall weight and more foc. I draw 52lbs @27", shooting a Carbon Express Piledriver with a weighted insert. I shot KuduPoint Contures in Africa and use them very successfully here on north American game as well. My total arrow weight is just over 600 grains.

I know next to nothing about the physics, but the results are undeniable. My penetration along with downrange accuracy increased significantly after switching to the heavier build with the different components.

 

[Niki.NE]

You guys are making me slightly nervous, but I am going to trust the guys who have been helping with my set-up over the last 8 months. We leave for our first Africa trip in less than 32 days and we just did my last adjustment.
My draw length is 24.5" and I am at 58 pounds. I am shooting an Axis 500 arrow with an insert, my total arrow weight is only at 390 grains. But when we 'mathed' it all out I am 50 ft.lb. for Kinetic Energy which should give me a decent penetration within my 30-35 yards and in zone for the medium game I am going for.
I will make sure to update this group after the trip!

 

[C.W. Richter]

Broadheads do not correlate with Archery shooting skills. Practice Archery, and absolutely tune your bow for broadheads, but once dialed in, it doesn't matter what heads you practice with. I use dedicated practice broadheads (never shoot 'em on hunts.) Some mfrs used to make identical spec practice heads (of unbreakable rubber/plastics.) I despise mechanicals based upon erratic terminal performance and doubly NEVER recommend them for African game. (Practice shooting your particular gun and familiarize yourself with it-no matter what the load. Obv have it dialed-in for the hunting load.) IF a more traditional archer (fingers, no release and on down the line, stick bows, etc.) hone the perfect release....as broadheads are a bit less forgiving upon taking the shot. Perfect that, tune for the broadheads, and you'll have no issue no matter what head you practice with!

 

[rookhawk]

You guys are making me slightly nervous, but I am going to trust the guys who have been helping with my set-up over the last 8 months. We leave for our first Africa trip in less than 32 days and we just did my last adjustment.
My draw length is 24.5" and I am at 58 pounds. I am shooting an Axis 500 arrow with an insert, my total arrow weight is only at 390 grains. But when we 'mathed' it all out I am 50 ft.lb. for Kinetic Energy which should give me a decent penetration within my 30-35 yards and in zone for the medium game I am going for.
I will make sure to update this group after the trip!

I don't know who has been helping you with your setup, but at face value I question a lot of it. It sounds exactly like the advice you'd find at a typical bow shop in America with "speed kills". My opinions run 180 degrees the opposite direction of American bow shops. Other than vanes or glue, there is not one thing in a large US bowshop I own or would want to own for Africa use.

My son has your same draw length, a bit less draw weight. He was shooting I think 585 grains and 30% FOC, we used about every trick in the book. The most important is the finest cut on contact broadhead (single bevel) money can buy, sharpened beyond sharp, and an insert/outsert system of the very most durable quality.

If you'd like to watch videos of similar setups to yours in action, watch the Driess Vissers plains game bowhunting videos. I don't think you're going to get the penetration and pass throughs you'd hope for with your setup.

I'm not trying to freak you out or cast shade, I just think you've got a speed bow setup and its the polar opposite of what I know will work well in Africa.

 

[Phil Giordano]

After first couple 4/5 sessione of initial tuning, my bows shot ONLY hunting broadheads, usually Slick Trick 125. Also a broadhead is pretty useful for fine tuning to me, as it enhances even the smallest error in tuning. So, to me, the answer to "how much" is : always.

 

[rookhawk]

After first couple 4/5 sessione of initial tuning, my bows shot ONLY hunting broadheads, usually Slick Trick 125. Also a broadhead is pretty useful for fine tuning to me, as it enhances even the smallest error in tuning. So, to me, the answer to "how much" is : always.

Amen. Paper tuning is handy too, but walkback tuning at the end can typically glean a bit more consistent flight at distances. It's worth the effort if you have a dedicated Africa bow or if you use Africa arrows on your North America hunts for simplicity.