High end bolt vs low end double

[rookhawk]

Yes, if everything is perfect, the hunter probably shouldn't double fire his double gun. But in the event of charging dangerous game nothing is perfect, especially if the client has never before experienced it, or any other life threatening situation. As a kid growing up I knew of more than one "experienced" duck hunter who inadvertently double fired his shotgun ... without being charged by a wounded mallard. It happens. This summer I had my Citori somehow fire the second barrel unintended at sporting clays. Not double fire but very close to it. Not sure whether it was the gun, the ammo, or the guy but it happened. Only once. I suppose if my life was at stake, I'd stop shooting and send it in to be checked. For now I'll just keep an eye on it. It's only a range gun anyway.

you avoided the question. The topic of the thread is low end doubles versus high end bolt rifles.

1.) How many low end and high end doubles have you owned to compare and contrast?

2.) You think they are unnecessary for DG or unreliable for DG. How much dangerous game have you hunted to qualify your opinion? What doubles and magazine rifles did you do for elephant/hippo/buffalo? How many times to support your position?

 

[rbutcher]

At the risk of thread drift, I’d rather have a high end bolt and a high end double.

It is (or at least should be) obvious that outside of a few specific circumstances, a client is best served with a scoped magazine rifle when a PH is backing them up. We can cherry pick situations where every tool fails, but people should be selecting tools that have the highest probability of them standing over a dead and recoverable animal. That means accurate shot placement over the greatest range of distances and circumstances.

Why buy a rigby for 7x the cost when you can get a CZ or Winchester? Because it’s awesome and intangibles matters to people. Why buy a westley Richards when you can buy a chapuis? Same answer. It does always seem to appear, at least to me, that the high end versions of tools in this game cost 7-10x the cost of the absolute minimum choice for reliability. Don’t like it? It is what it is.

High end bolt vs low end double shouldn’t be the question, even though it seems like it is because the cost is the same. The question should be any magazine rifle vs any double, and then figure out a way to afford your choice for your hunt.

 

[Muskox]

If you are doing $15K hunts, then you are not hunting in RSA game farms mostly and do not really need a double for sure. Free range DG hunts, the cost of the rifle is not a big factor, especially if you use the rifle on multiple hunts. On my Heym 88B double per hunt cost of it is less than a charter flight at this point.

Concur, I am not the upper earners. Just a middle class guy. So a 21 day Tanzania hunt and choosing between a $15,000 rifle and another $15,000 rifle is something I am going to do.

I have almost $20,000 in my Blaser systems with different barrels. I could have just as easily been served by a lot of other things, and hunted more.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

you avoided the question. The topic of the thread is low end doubles versus high end bolt rifles.

1.) How many low end and high end doubles have you owned to compare and contrast?

2.) You think they are unnecessary for DG or unreliable for DG. How much dangerous game have you hunted to qualify your opinion? What doubles and magazine rifles did you do for elephant/hippo/buffalo? How many times to support your position?

Wally Johnson was Capstick's "Last Ivory Hunter." Conservative estimates have him shooting thousands of elephants. And what did he shoot them with? Model 70 BOLT ACTION 375 H&H. Harry Selby backed up clients, including Ruark, for nearly forty years with a standard bolt action 98 Mauser in 416 Rigby. And he shot that right-handed rifle LEFT-HANDED! Obviously he was able to shoot it fast enough to keep himself and countless clients alive when the shit hit the fan. They didn't choose double rifles, presumably for good reasons. Their experience trumps everyone on this forum ... combined.

I have shot a couple of buffalo. Hope to shoot a couple more. I have absolutely no interest in hunting cats or bears or elephants or hippos. Zero interest. I'm a cloven hoof kinda guy.

100 meter frontal shot through the heart. Then we were charged three times by the herd. Thankfully no more shooting required.

65 yard running shot through both lungs and major blood vessels. He went maybe 100 yards before stopping to face us. I shot him again in the chest but he was already essentially dead. Spun around a couple of times in place, sat on his butt, tipped over, and died.

 

[rookhawk]

Wally Johnson was Capstick's "Last Ivory Hunter." Conservative estimates have him shooting thousands of elephants. And what did he shoot them with? Model 70 BOLT ACTION 375 H&H. Harry Selby backed up clients, including Ruark, for nearly forty years with a standard bolt action 98 Mauser in 416 Rigby. And he shot that right-handed rifle LEFT-HANDED! Obviously he was able to shoot it fast enough to keep himself and countless clients alive when the shit hit the fan.

I have shot a couple of buffalo. Hope to shoot a couple more. I have absolutely no interest in hunting cats or bears or elephants or hippos. Zero interest. I'm a cloven hoof kinda guy.

100 meter frontal shot through the heart. Then we were charged three times by the herd. Thankfully no more shooting required.

65 yard running shot through both lungs and major blood vessels. He went maybe 100 yards before stopping to face us. I shot him again in the chest but he was already essentially dead. Spun around a couple of times in place, sat on his butt, tipped over, and died.

Summary of what I read:

1.) An appeal to authority by citing others. (e.g. Selby used a 416 bolt gun because he ran over his double rifle breaking the stock. He couldn't get it repaired in Africa and it languished for years.) I could cite a hundred experts that have used double rifles over the last century and of course I could cite some of the best elephant PHs in the world that use DRs as well. https://www.heymusa.com/professional-hunters/

2.) You've shot two buffalo with magazine rifles. Wonderful. Glad to hear you enjoyed the hunts because buffalo is a good hunt.

Beyond the above, you haven't cited a single low end or high end double rifle you have owned, nor a high end magazine rifle to contrast it to. You haven't hunted the DG where the essential benefits of a double rifle pay dividends, save for two buffalo. You're not speaking from a position of direct authority and you don't have anecdotal personal experience.

 

[1dirthawker]

Ivan Carter made a video for Heym (i tried to find on youtube was unsuccessful) that made it extremely clear the value of a double rifle. it was all close quarters with DG. i used to have saved to my phone, but lost it.

i would show the video to my bolt action are the best buddies and would say "pretend you have your bolt action in this video". most of the time guy with a bolt gun would get smashed. every time the buddy that watched the video agreed, a bolt gun might get you killed.

double rifles excel at close range fast shooting. re: the cost .... that's a tough one because one can spend lots of money on either. if i was hunting a lot of DG, then i believe i would carry a double. as a client, i think it is less critical.

when i went on my one and only buffalo hunt, i took a double 450-400. i shot my buff at 30 yards, bedded down. one shot bedded, one more when it wheeled to run off. i could not have run my bolt gun fast enough to make the second shot that i WAS able to make with my double.

my double is a relatively cheap zoli, it is accurate, wears a scope and has never let me down.

 

[Tanks]

100 meter frontal shot through the heart.

If you are shooting DG, albeit farm animals, at 100 yards, methinks you might be doing it wrong.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

Harry Selby's buddy ran over the barrels. The gun was ruined. However, not surprisingly Selby was gifted other double rifles over the years (and they were not low end guns!). He just preferred his Mauser.

The question was whether one should get a low end double rifle or a high end bolt action safari rifle. If, as I said, I was prone to excess (and I may be notoriously prone to non-excess), then I would choose the bolt action because I do not consider ANY double rifle to be as utilitarian as bolt action. And for several reasons I am not convinced they are any safer option in dangerous game situations. Also, it seems low end doubles have a bad reputation for failure. Mind you, many low end bolt guns are as bad or worse, but they are not considered in this debate. In my opinion, a well made medium grade bolt gun would be a much better choice than low end double, even a reasonably reliable/accurate low end double. I can make a low end military bolt rifle into something special. A double rifle is what it is out of the box. If it doesn't shoot straight or has crappy triggers, nothing I can do about it. Off to someone with a gun surgery diploma who may or may not be able to correct the problem.

 

[grand veneur]

I shot my first buffalo many years ago with a combined rifle 12/70-9,3x74R. It works without problems with a 19g FMJ bullet, but that does not mean it is the best rifle and the best cartridge for this purpose in all situations. The same applies to the double rifles as well as the bolt action rifles of various caliber, but since everyone is completely biased about their rifle, objective discussions are always extremely difficult to conduct.

 

[Tanks]

Also, it seems low end doubles have a bad reputation for failure.

I have been very happy with my Heym 88B in .500 NE. As a low end double, it has a very good reputation. My upcoming Rigby Shikari will be my mid-range double and I doubt I will want to wait for a high-end double from H&H or Purdey considering I am 69 now.

 

[rookhawk]

I have been very happy with my Heym 88B in .500 NE. As a low end double, it has a very good reputation. My upcoming Rigby Shikari will be my mid-range double and I doubt I will want to wait for a high-end double from H&H or Purdey considering I am 69 now.

I'd like what @Tanks wrote sink in for the readers. He just called a Heym a low-end double. To peel that onion or elaborate, the Heym is the least expensive, high quality, totally reliable double rifle one can buy that will not disappoint. Yep, you can spend $50k on a "low-end" double rifle by his definition, but I think his definition is accurate when we are describing the minimum threshold as "wholly acceptable, not wanting".

You can certainly spend a lot more as Tanks has done. A modern WR or Rigby, or a vintage London gun is even better in many ways including balance, carry, fit, and aesthetic, but these are huge sums of money for the average DG hunter.

Two things I ALWAYS bring to Africa:

1.) A heym or London double rifle
2.) A mauser action safari rifle in 375HH (Cogswell & Harrison and Dakota being the two I have found the most trustworthy)

My children have hunted DG in Africa with 375HH magazine rifles from the maker's above and I had high, but not perfect confidence in a magazine rifle. However, I was ready to back them with a double rifle (never required) and the PH was carrying a proper stopping rifle.

If all I could afford was $6k to $16k, I would bring a 375HH mauser of impeccable reliability that has express sights and a QD optic. There is no place in my battery for role-playing with unreliable double rifles that are more economical, I need a 100% reliable tool.

Speaking of reliable, I sent a Heym out for regulation load development recently. The gun shot perfectly on virtually the first try. That's the Heym difference.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

If you are shooting DG, albeit farm animals, at 100 yards, methinks you might be doing it wrong.

Which is what I questioned in my Christmas email to my PH later that year. It was my first African hunt, more or less booked on a whim at the last minute. The package was for plains game but a deal came up for buffalo after I'd shot all my plains game except kudu (plus a few that weren't in the package). By Christmas I'd had time to study up some on buffalo hunting and learned that was a long shot. My PH's response: "Yes, the lodge policy is 70 yards max for buffalo ... but we knew you could shoot [the lodge owner was along for backup]." At first I was disinclined to shoot. The wind was moving me too much on the sticks. He rushed over and supported my right arm. "How's that?" Boom! Keep in mind he had watched me take the charging gemsbuck the previous day with two shots in the heart and I called both shots before we rolled her over. We had found the buffalo in the thick stuff late in the afternoon but they busted. We gave up for the day and on the way back to the truck when they happened to run into an opening and stop for a look at us. Not an easy shot but not hard either. The bullet went right where expected using a 375 that I'd only shot once before at the range earlier that day. I don't even own a North Amercan magnum. Similarly, I came off the sticks when the second buffalo busted at 65 yards and I shot him with the same rifle running. No doubt about the hit as we were close and very audible. But the bull kept running. "Where did you hit him?" I pointed just behind my shoulder (bull was quartering away slightly). And that's where I hit him. Later I apologized for taking a running shot. "... but we've been chasing these things around for four days and there's other stuff I want to hunt. You didn't say anything when I got off the sticks and on him so I took the shot." He said, "You're the only client I would let shoot at a buffalo on the run that wasn't wounded." Maybe just blowing smoke for a tip. But maybe not. The night before I scoped a bull running away and he told me not to shoot (I had no intention of shooting it in the butt but if he stopped and turned to look back at us I wanted to be ready to maybe give it a try).

 

[Tanks]

If all I could afford was $6k to $16k, I would bring a 375HH mauser of impeccable reliability that has express sights and a QD optic.

Just to let you know, I spent $16.5 for my Heym. The previous owner bought it from HeymUSA, fired 6 shots per barrel and put it back in its case. He had it for sale for a year or longer until I came along.

Left-handed and at my exact LOP. The only extra money I spent on it was to put a leather wrap around it by sending to the gentlemen in LA that does it for H&Hs.

I guess, I got lucky.

 

[rookhawk]

Just to let you know, I spent $16.5 for my Heym. The previous owner bought it from HeymUSA, fired 6 shots per barrel and put it back in its case. He had it for sale for a year or longer until I came along.

Left-handed and at my exact LOP. The only extra money I spent on it was to put a leather wrap around it by sending to the gentlemen in LA that does it for H&Hs.

I guess, I got lucky.

I paid in the teens for my Heym years ago. I sold it to pay off a portion of my relo and mortgage a couple years ago for $43k. I suspect it would sell for a lot more used today. At the time of sale, its new replacement cost with all the same features was $80something thousand.

The days of $16.5k Heyms, even stripped down base models in not-so-desired calibers and leftied...are done.

 

[HankBuck]

Okay, whipping that dead horse a bit longer, let's look at your points favoring double rifle over bolt for dangerous game.

1) Double rifles are supposed to be heavier with less muzzle jump. Most of the double rifles I observe in videos have very short barrels, presumably to cut weight. They also appear to have considerably less wood, especially in the fore end, also presumably to cut weight. Most don't wear scopes which also = < weight. They only carry two vs four or five cartridges and that can be a not insignificant weight reduction. And lastly, though the double rifle action is shorter, I suspect the weight difference is not significantly different (extra hammers and springs = heavy bolt assembly). My 404J Mauser weighs nearly 11 lbs loaded with scope and sling. How does a stubby DGR double compare? I'm also finding it hard to believe a short barreled much larger caliber double rifle would have significantly less muzzle jump than my 24" barrel much longer action 404 Mauser. But maybe I'm wrong.

2) Speed of a second shot. You presume this is always an advantage. I can easily argue that it certainly often times is very much a disadvantage, especially if the shooter accidentally fires both barrels simultaneously or before the gun has settled on target from recoil. I have yet to see a video of double fire in a field situation but I'm sure a few are out there. I have seen several where the shooter (client or PH) fired the second barrel too quickly and badly missed the animal. Sure, a bolt hunter can also miss the second shot, but he's still got two more for correction if time allows. And reloading a bolt action on the run is a lot handier than a double rifle. By the way, I did shoot an incoming gemsbuck twice through the heart with my bolt action Springfield at <30 yards and then running by at 12 yards. And she was running plenty fast and I do not reload on the shoulder. I remount the rifle after cycling. Gemsbuck are not officially "dangerous game" but they are nonetheless plenty dangerous. My outfitter had a close call dispatching a wounded one two years earlier. And they are not afraid to scrap with lions. For an experienced hunter a bolt action can be fired quite fast.

3) Are double guns more reliable? If the first barrel fails to fire, would the hunter go ahead and take the shot at a dangerous animal knowing he doesn't have a followup barrel? And if the second barrel fails to fire during a charge, the hunter is no less screwed than the bolt guy who's gun somehow collapsed after the first wounding shot. This is all tinfoil hat conjecture. Probability of failure is obscure for either gun. Clearly double rifles have more mechanisms than bolt actions. More mechanism would seem to favor more probability of failure.

4) And some more conjecture. Wounded dangerous game do not always run off and hide, giving the double gun guy time to reload. From what I'm seeing on the videos, this is rarely the case with elephant. At any rate, my experience has been I can put two rounds into a charging animal at less than thirty yards very accurately with a bolt action rifle. Presumably Harry Selby and Wally Johnson were also capable since they preferred to stop wounded dangerous game with bolt rifles.

@Ontario Hunter - you need to see and handle a few double rifles (maybe fire some) before making another embarrassing post

 

[HankBuck]

Just to let you know, I spent $16.5 for my Heym. The previous owner bought it from HeymUSA, fired 6 shots per barrel and put it back in its case. He had it for sale for a year or longer until I came along.

Left-handed and at my exact LOP. The only extra money I spent on it was to put a leather wrap around it by sending to the gentlemen in LA that does it for H&Hs.

I guess, I got lucky.

@Tanks: you got a great deal on a fine Double and being a Lefty myself - good deals are hard to find. Eventually every rifle sells - even Lefty rifles - as long as they are priced reasonably (Not Under priced - just Not grossly over priced). If not in a hurry to either Buy or Sell - good deals are out there….but Not many like the Deal you got !! Congrats

 

[HankBuck]

Summary of what I read:

1.) An appeal to authority by citing others. (e.g. Selby used a 416 bolt gun because he ran over his double rifle breaking the stock. He couldn't get it repaired in Africa and it languished for years.) I could cite a hundred experts that have used double rifles over the last century and of course I could cite some of the best elephant PHs in the world that use DRs as well. https://www.heymusa.com/professional-hunters/

2.) You've shot two buffalo with magazine rifles. Wonderful. Glad to hear you enjoyed the hunts because buffalo is a good hunt.

Beyond the above, you haven't cited a single low end or high end double rifle you have owned, nor a high end magazine rifle to contrast it to. You haven't hunted the DG where the essential benefits of a double rifle pay dividends, save for two buffalo. You're not speaking from a position of direct authority and you don't have anecdotal personal experience.

@rookhawk - he avoided your questions because @Ontario Hunter has ZERO experience with Double Rifles….but that never stops a Strong Opinion.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

@rookhawk - he avoided your questions because @Ontario Hunter has ZERO experience with Double Rifles….but that never stops a Strong Opinion.

You assume too much. I have fired an expensive double rifle ... twice, many years ago after a Montana gun show. And that was enough. Not impressed. I also shoot my O/U shotgun enough to know I wouldn't want to try reloading a break open gun on the run, especially if my life depended on it. Anyone can cycle a bolt action on the run if needed.

 

[1dirthawker]

I also shoot my O/U shotgun enough to know I wouldn't want to try reloading a break open gun on the run, especially if my life depended on it. Anyone can cycle a bolt action on the run if needed.

hmmm,

trying to operate a gun while running from DG does not seem like a good plan. my experience has led me to stand my ground and quickly reload. its hard for me to shoot while running.

 

[oscar1975]

I think I prefer quality in a bolt action than mediocrity in a double. It's better to spend that amount on a quality bolt action than on a sub-standard double rifle. The other option is to keep saving until you can afford a quality double.