guns

[ellie123]

I am just wondering as someone from the uk who wants to become a PH in a few years time,
how do all you PH’s in Africa afford the H&H and Rigby guns as i guessed that you’re are on average pay and these guns are mostly made for highly paid people.

Are they loaned to you by the people you work for? or are they a purchase you personally make?

As rifle barrels tend to wear out and need to be changed after around 1,500 - 3,000 rounds are sent through the barrel, surely this starts to get expensive as you are using the gun every day in the winter and sometimes the summer.

My main interests are in double barrel rifles as you would rather depend on them saving your life more than a bolt action as if they jam you are most likely going to die in a dangerous situation.

 

[Stalker91]

Hi @ellie123 welcome to the forum.

As for your questions and speaking from personal experience as someone from England that wanted to become a PH and worked as an apprentice for a couple of years, barely any PH’s have premium London guns in fact I’ve never met one and I know that the few that do were normally gifted them by wealthy clients that they have worked hard for for years.

Most PH’s I have worked or hunted with us cz’s, model 70’s or something similar not a great deal of them even use doubles because of the cost.

Also most PH’s don’t actually use much ammo at all as they let their paying client do the shooting as that’s what they are there for, so don’t wear barrels out, especially not at that round count.

Which country are you looking to do your licence and have you got a company in mind?

 

[Mark A Ouellette]

Also most PH’s don’t actually use much ammo at all as they let their paying client do the shooting as that’s what they are there for, so don’t wear barrels out, especially not at that round count.

Very much agree!

Further, many African restrict how many rounds per licensed rifle the licensee can buy. Many a PH's ammo often comes from client left overs.

As for rifles, this is my 1985 West German Heym 88B to the right of my Zimbabwe PH's very well worn Mark X .458 Lott. My Heym killed at least two elephant for its former caretaker. The PH's Lott has killed or finished off more elephants than I will ever be within 50 meters of, i.e. shooting range.

 

[WAB]

I wish you all the best in you quest to become a PH Ellie!

 

[WAB]

Here is a partial list of rifles my PH’s have carried:

M-70 in .458 Lott
CZ in .458 Lott
M-98 in 450 ackley
CZ in .450 Rigby
M-98 in .404
M-98 in .416 Rigby
M-98 in .375 H&H

 

[Aaron N]

@Tokoloshe Safaris might be able to shed some light. I believe he has some lovely vintage rifles

 

[Kevin Peacocke]

Welcome Elite. It is a pity double rifles are expensive because I, like you say, feel more comfortable standing next to a PH holding a double. That isn't just talk, one of my PH's had a modestly priced bolt gun that failed twice in one day.
I know Heym offers a special discount on their doubles to licensed PH's, and just as a good mechanic saves for his life-long tools perhaps so should a PH. Lives may depend upon it.

 

[Aaron N]

Another way to look at it is the fact that rifles are a PH’s tools. No one would think twice about a mechanic having a garage filled with $30000 in snap on tools. The same could be said for a PH except the three tool they need is a reliable rifle, good optics, and a dependable truck.

 

[rookhawk]

I’d say the odds of an Englishman becoming a PH are about one in a million these days. Some of the very competent PHs I know saved for years for their cruiser, modest bolt action gun, and all their necessary equipment. After imperiling their life savings every year to buy quota and hope they get paid by clients and that the government doesn’t steal their money or raise their costs post facto, the best of them are living below the UK/US poverty line by a considerable measure.

An apprentice PH with his own $70,000 cruiser and gun will make $50 a day, $150-$250 as an experienced PH. Those are working days with clients on the ground with some expectation that scouting and pre/post hunt days they are there “off the clock”.

I don’t know of any Brit or American that would take that much risk and effort to make about 1/3rd of what the dole pays out to sit home and watch TV. It’s a young man’s game for a natural born citizen of African nations.

So due to economics and pay scales, virtually none of them own fine guns. If the OP wants to be a ghillie or guide, the pay will be a living wage in Scotland and won’t take an act of god to get a legal work permit to attempt to ply their craft.

 

[WAB]

I wouldn't be quite that negative. Some ex-pats have done very well in Africa. The odds may be tough, but if you are willing to fight for it, it is possible.

 

[mark-hunter]

who wants to become a PH in a few years time,
how do all you PH’s in Africa afford the H&H and Rigby guns

As you could already see, in most cases its factory rifles for PH.
For double rifles. usually will be heym or kreighoff, or something less expensive.

Londons finest are for clients in general.

 

[rookhawk]

As you could already see, in most cases its factory rifles for PH.
For double rifles. usually will be heym or kreighoff, or something less expensive.

Londons finest are for clients in general.

And let’s not forget until well into the 1970s it was a tradition on a 28 day+ safari to give a tip to the PH, often it was your double. There are still a few “tip guns” floating around, heavily used, and some of those are London guns nearing a century old. They usually they are injured from abuse but ultimately killed by shade tree gunsmiths.

 

[Kevin Peacocke]

PH'ing is a way of life rather than a way to make a living. Guiding makes a bit more money than being a PH, simply because you are more regularly employed. There was a time in Zimbabwe when you could take the exams and be either, but now I believe you have to make a choice early on and it is binding. I know two young appies, the young man wanted to be a PH but is now leaning towards guiding, and the young lady wants to be a PH no matter what.
In any case the pay is terrible. Our duty is to support them wherever we can through very generous tips. It isn't right to be paying $7 thousand for your buffalo and the young PH standing next to you watching over your welfare gets $200.

 

[mark-hunter]

@ellie123
On this link, page 2, post 39, i downloaded the list of most famous white hunters and their guns.
It is the extract from latest annual Gun Digest edition. (458 win mag, is mostly used, in bolt action)
Its a great example of investigative journalism.
Enjoy your research!

https://www.africahunting.com/threads/what-gun-do-professional-hunters-like-to-use.60835/page-2

 

[Kevin Peacocke]

@ellie123
On this link, page 2, post 39, i downloaded the list of most famous white hunters and their guns.
It is the extract from latest annual Gun Digest edition. (458 win mag, is mostly used, in bolt action)
Its a great example of investigative journalism.
Enjoy your research!

https://www.africahunting.com/threads/what-gun-do-professional-hunters-like-to-use.60835/page-2

Thank you Mark

 

[bowjijohn]

I know one or two guides who also passed their PH quals

it is a long hard road

I am sending a student of mine to qualify as a guide with Bushwise in SA (other training providers/ organisations exist)

I would recommend at least considering that route if someone wants to pursue a career in the African bush

most young guides have to save long and hard for a rifle - some (the lucky ones) are gifted them or have one passed down through the family.

most / many opt for a Bruno (if you can find one) or it’s modern Cz equivalent in .375

I have helped one guide (who was also a newly qualified PH - I think from Tz) with the purchase of his own Cz - that was after spending 6 weeks with him brushing up on my VPDG assessments as second rifle - part of the route to being a trails guide

I’m not sure you can qualify as a PH in zim if you are not at least a resident (not 100% sure about that though)

To the OP - be determined, don’t be put off, be flexible, take the long term approach. Working in the bush as a guide, ranger or PH is a fine way to spend your life

just my two pennyworth

 

[mark-hunter]

It isn't right to be paying $7 thousand for your buffalo and the young PH standing next to you watching over your welfare gets $200.

Much discussed in thread of tipping. But what are you saying is strictly westerner perspective, coming to the country from another planet, with bag of money to spend. In that perspective it is irrelevant if they will spend for day rate and trophy fee 11k on buffalo, or 10k for buffalo and 1 k for tipping.
.

69.167.160.5 30.03.2024 08:25:43

From the link:

The salary in Zimbabwe is $230. The average salary in micro-enterprises with up to 15 employees is $138; in small enterprises with up to 100 employees it’s $207, and $253 in medium-sized companies with over 100 employees. The average salary in large enterprises from 250 people in Zimbabwe is $322. In the state-financed organizations in Zimbabwe, the average salary is $184.

If that is average salary in Zim, then with 3 clients in three consecutive 10 days safari, tipping 200 each, that makes triple average salary. 2:1 PH-ing, same tips per client, 6 times monthly salary, average.

The question is what is reasonable tip? Countries average salary, or triple that, or percentage of that? Or percentage of hunt or fee costs?

In general, what makes the industry grow, is actually selling on affordable prices. Not elite markets for selected few.
In safari you have - south africa and Namibia conservation success on reasonable safari costs which takes at least of 80% of all african clients, and operations struggling to survive everywhere else, compensated partly by higher costs of operations. And I have a feeling that in those areas we are slowly and steadily loosing our hunting grounds.

 

[Zambezi]

I won't go into detail but the figures quoted above for average salary etc are largely based on unskilled or semi skilled staff. That's what makes up the bulk for the Zim workforce. So saying that the national average is $200 - $300 a month is misleading and I can guarantee you that anyone trying to live any sort of lifestyle that you would consider acceptable most definitely requires faaaaaaaar more than $300 a month. And no I'm not talking about a lavish lifestyle, I'm talking making ends meet.

Back on topic, a trainee PH will most probably be housed by the outfitter when in season and will probably stay with his/her folks out of season. In the beginning of your apprentice period you're going to be earning virtually nothing, a little bit of pay and you're going to be doing grunt work BUT you will be learning the tricks of the trade. Only once you have a lot of experience and you are providing a return on your labour will you start to make a bit of money. But don't expect to get rich. Tips get you through the month/year and if you're lucky they will also help you to buy a few extras that you might NEED.

Your rifle will probably not be a Rigby / H&H etc unless your have dosh and you buy it yourself, but more likely a CZ / Winchester / Remington / Brno / etc.

 

[Kevin Peacocke]

A PH in Zim is a highly skilled person who has completed an apprenticeship that can last as long as 5 years. He/she has also studied and written exams.
i employ many people in Zimbabwe and South Africa and a qualified PH on my ranking is a US$2000 a month minimum person.

 

[ellie123]

Hi @ellie123 welcome to the forum.

As for your questions and speaking from personal experience as someone from England that wanted to become a PH and worked as an apprentice for a couple of years, barely any PH’s have premium London guns in fact I’ve never met one and I know that the few that do were normally gifted them by wealthy clients that they have worked hard for for years.

Most PH’s I have worked or hunted with us cz’s, model 70’s or something similar not a great deal of them even use doubles because of the cost.

Also most PH’s don’t actually use much ammo at all as they let their paying client do the shooting as that’s what they are there for, so don’t wear barrels out, especially not at that round count.

Which country are you looking to do your licence and have you got a company in mind?

i would maybe like to get my licence in South Africa and would like to do my course with the wildlife collage as it’s a big interest to me and Kevin Robertson is a big inspiration of mine as
and i feel i would learn a lot from him.

Thank you for answering my question it was a big help to me in understanding on what sort of rifles they use and how i misunderstood some parts.