Guide rifle recommendations

[Nwrangler]

Hey guys! Guide from Canada here, moose and all bears from black to white are the main topic. Currently have rifles in 9.3x62, 375 Ruger, 416 Rem, and 458 win mag. For mountain hunts ranging from 5-300+ yards, backing up hunters on poor shots off carcasses and tracking wounded in tight cover, which would you pick? Also spend allot of time walking in the dark alone to catch horses and have bumped into bears and cow moose with calves on the trail at very short distances. Also the potential in the next couple years for protecting workers in the arctic from the big white bears. Need something to protect myself and client and also be able to reach out a little bit. Unfortunately don't reload, and ammo is tricky to get these days up here. For the 375 ruger I have all 3 expanding variants from hornady, 400 trophy bonded solids going 2400fps on the box and 450 woodleighs going 2150 fps on the box for the 416 rm , and 450 tsx going 2250 on the box for the 458 WM. Had a brain shot bear run 20 or 30 yards after being hit with the 9.3 and 250 accubonds. When skinned the brain and skull were a mess and impacted. A friend has a similar story with a 350 RM.
I would like something with a little more swat to make them sit down when I want them to sit down, if possible. Any suggestions? Optics are trijicon 1-6 accupoint and aimpoint micro. Thanks! Cheers

 

[Nwrangler]

Also curious about the impact energy of the 416 with a solid compared to the 375 with an expanding bullet

 

[Tam Dl]

Sounds as though you might know more than most already.

As you know, the impact energy can be read in a book or measured with a chrono, and some calculations. What happens when that energy hits the target, and how it is used is another mater.

Solids are great when the hole size in question is all it will take, or at the opposite end of the spectrum, when the shot you have requires all the penetration you can get. Expanding bullets should provide a more drastic wound channel on softer targets (which can be any part of a given animal, or a chest shot vs a head shot on some larger animals).

Every animal is different. Depends on whether you are harvesting, or an animal is trying to get away, or facing it head on.

I don't know anything much about PBs, the few stories I know are based on military calibers. And sometimes guns that didn't work. A lot of 303s. Increasingly the expectation is that one talk to PBs firmly and possibly send them to a reformatory.

Grizzlies seem amenable to the 338 Win Mag, or the 375 H&H. Seems like a perfect case for a 9.3. There was a set of articles with data in Rifle years a ago, and while the two camps being compared seemed to find equal effect on stopping bears with the 338 or the 375, the camp that fielded the 375s seemed to end up with clients shooting even heavier rifles and missing a ton. Clients that shot anything over the 338 tended to pattern like shotguns. and they got a lot of those clients. Almost made one wonder if some of these clients asked about the gun to bring, and when they heard it was standard for guides to use the 338, switched to the camp with the more heroic calibers, and then went one better. Not something in the rifle articles, but it seemed plausible from the data. The data gave the number of shots fired, the calibers used, for both guides and clients.

 

[Nwrangler]

Sounds as though you might know more than most already.

As you know, the impact energy can be read in a book or measured with a chrono, and some calculations. What happens when that energy hits the target, and how it is used is another mater.

Solids are great when the hole size in question is all it will take, or at the opposite end of the spectrum, when the shot you have requires all the penetration you can get. Expanding bullets should provide a more drastic wound channel on softer targets (which can be any part of a given animal, or a chest shot vs a head shot on some larger animals).

Every animal is different. Depends on whether you are harvesting, or an animal is trying to get away, or facing it head on.

I don't know anything much about PBs, the few stories I know are based on military calibers. And sometimes guns that didn't work. A lot of 303s. Increasingly the expectation is that one talk to PBs firmly and possibly send them to a reformatory.

Grizzlies seem amenable to the 338 Win Mag, or the 375 H&H. Seems like a perfect case for a 9.3. There was a set of articles with data in Rifle years a ago, and while the two camps being compared seemed to find equal effect on stopping bears with the 338 or the 375, the camp that fielded the 375s seemed to end up with clients shooting even heavier rifles and missing a ton. Clients that shot anything over the 338 tended to pattern like shotguns. and they got a lot of those clients. Almost made one wonder if some of these clients asked about the gun to bring, and when they heard it was standard for guides to use the 338, switched to the camp with the more heroic calibers, and then went one better. Not something in the rifle articles, but it seemed plausible from the data. The data gave the number of shots fired, the calibers used, for both guides and clients.

Thank you for the reply. I have been wondering if it is redundant to go higher than the 338/300 for shooting game from all angles and that there isn't a magic "make them sit down cartridge". I own a 300 WSM that has the new terminal ascent bullet (modern bear claw with a fancy tip and boat tail) 200 grain bullet loaded by federal, I figured this was close enough to the average .338 load to not justify having one and it seems for pure penetration on our game up here a 300 magnum with a barnes will penetrate as far as anything else. I actually traded a sako brown bear in 338 win mag for the ruger guide gun. The sako was a much nicer rifle but the guide gun felt much sturdier and built for hard and extended use in the back country. Do you think that a 375 ruger with a 300 grain expanding bullet is going to hit harder and do more damage than the 416 with a solid going 2400 fps? The only solid bullet experience I have was with 430 hardcasts in a 45-70 lever, the box said 1800 fps if i recall. It just seemed to drill holes with not much shock. Is this similar to what I should expect from the 416 with solids? I didn't know if the increase in velocity would make a difference on impact "energy" or just help it penetrate farther? From a pure penetration standpoint a 300 magnum with a barnes/copper bullet will do anything a guy wants up here with awesome trajectory as well. It would just be nice to have some more bullet size for those oh crap moments. Because the only time my rifle is going off is when it's an oh crap moment. Thanks again for the reply, this is fun getting to talk to you guys about this stuff.
Cheers

 

[WillMFerguson]

My first bear rifle was an old (like double or triple digit SN) Sako Finnbear in .300 H&H. All I had were those old 180 grain Olin silver tips. Never had any charges because they were all black bears. The biggest one I killed may have gone 400lbs. Those silver tips were like a grenade going off inside the chest cavity. Every one of them, except one was DRT, like its soul had been sucked out of it. Points are, I never needed solids, .300 H&H was enough, and never had a problem. Then again, we didn't have grizzlies we were willing to talk abt, if you know what I mean. Sorry. Not sure that helps.

 

[rifletuner]

You mention shots at 300 to 500. Are you having to shoot those distances, or only within shorter distances for backing up clients and bear defence? If short range only, then the 416 or 458 you already have would be the ones I would carry.

But if you actually need to be able to shoot out to 500, then you need something quite different. My son carries a 375 Ruger loaded with 260gn Accubonds for sambar deer in Australia. He has a 1-4 March scope mounted so he can carry the rifle on minimum power when stalking heavy cover, but if he sees a deer across a gully out to 500 meters he can dial elevation and still take the shot. So if that is close to what you might encounter, your 375 Ruger with a suitable scope might be the best choice?

Photo of my son's 375 Ruger for reference:

 

[freefall]

When the .416 Rem came out tons of guides here traded up for them. Old Hank Rust said "You think their .375s don't work anymore?"
I used a .338 for a few years with no problems, but never got into anything hairy with a bear. The time I DID have to wade into the alders with it, I wished for something with a bigger hole in the end. Ralph Wing said one night "All day my .375 is too big and heavy, but when the sun goes down it feels too small".
In your situation, I'd carry the .375 with expanding bullets over the .416 with solids. But I'd be looking for expanding for the .416. Do you reload?

 

[Nwrangler]

My first bear rifle was an old (like double or triple digit SN) Sako Finnbear in .300 H&H. All I had were those old 180 grain Olin silver tips. Never had any charges because they were all black bears. The biggest one I killed may have gone 400lbs. Those silver tips were like a grenade going off inside the chest cavity. Every one of them, except one was DRT, like its soul had been sucked out of it. Points are, I never needed solids, .300 H&H was enough, and never had a problem. Then again, we didn't have grizzlies we were willing to talk abt, if you know what I mean. Sorry. Not sure that helps.

Absolutely it helps! I think most of those typical calibers will work under normal hunting situations. My clients are the one shooting in those perfect situations and more often than not results in very dead game. I am talking about the odd time when it's an "oh crap momemt" and we are dealing with either a wounded animal heading for thick timber or an animal set to do some damage. The gentlemen hunting in Africa seem to have much more of these instances than we do, hence why I am here. The only reason I am asking about solids is because at the moment they are all a guy can get in the 416 remington in Canada besides the 450 woodleighs at 100$ for 10 rounds!!

 

[Nwrangler]

When the .416 Rem came out tons of guides here traded up for them. Old Hank Rust said "You think their .375s don't work anymore?"
I used a .338 for a few years with no problems, but never got into anything hairy with a bear. The time I DID have to wade into the alders with it, I wished for something with a bigger hole in the end. Ralph Wing said one night "All day my .375 is too big and heavy, but when the sun goes down it feels too small".
In your situation, I'd carry the .375 with expanding bullets over the .416 with solids. But I'd be looking for expanding for the .416. Do you reload?

Thank you!! That's exactly what I was wondering about and I feel the same way about the wanting a bigger hole when you're in the tight stuff or its dark. I feel the most confident with a 458 WM in my hands but last season a gentleman wounded a moose, and we were lucky enough to get back onto it a few hours later. It was at 330 yards out in the open and the thickness and the height of the dwarf birch meant that if we got any closer we wouldn't have a clear shot. The gentleman asked me to back him up as it was day 9 of a 10 day hunt. I looked down at the open sighted 458 WM and didn't feel too confident in my abilities to hit that moose. Thankfully client put down great shots and I never had to fire. Thank you for your response!

 

[Nwrangler]

You mention shots at 300 to 500. Are you having to shoot those distances, or only within shorter distances for backing up clients and bear defence? If short range only, then the 416 or 458 you already have would be the ones I would carry.

But if you actually need to be able to shoot out to 500, then you need something quite different. My son carries a 375 Ruger loaded with 260gn Accubonds for sambar deer in Australia. He has a 1-4 March scope mounted so he can carry the rifle on minimum power when stalking heavy cover, but if he sees a deer across a gully out to 500 meters he can dial elevation and still take the shot. So if that is close to what you might encounter, your 375 Ruger with a suitable scope might be the best choice?

Photo of my son's 375 Ruger for reference:

When the .416 Rem came out tons of guides here traded up for them. Old Hank Rust said "You think their .375s don't work anymore?"
I used a .338 for a few years with no problems, but never got into anything hairy with a bear. The time I DID have to wade into the alders with it, I wished for something with a bigger hole in the end. Ralph Wing said one night "All day my .375 is too big and heavy, but when the sun goes down it feels too small".
In your situation, I'd carry the .375 with expanding bullets over the .416 with solids. But I'd be looking for expanding for the .416. Do you reload?

Unfortunately do not have the facilities to reload at this time

Thanks for the reply! That is a cool looking rifle!

 

[Nwrangler]

When the .416 Rem came out tons of guides here traded up for them. Old Hank Rust said "You think their .375s don't work anymore?"
I used a .338 for a few years with no problems, but never got into anything hairy with a bear. The time I DID have to wade into the alders with it, I wished for something with a bigger hole in the end. Ralph Wing said one night "All day my .375 is too big and heavy, but when the sun goes down it feels too small".
In your situation, I'd carry the .375 with expanding bullets over the .416 with solids. But I'd be looking for expanding for the .416. Do you reload?

Unfortunately do not have the facilities to reload at this time

 

[Nwrangler]

You mention shots at 300 to 500. Are you having to shoot those distances, or only within shorter distances for backing up clients and bear defence? If short range only, then the 416 or 458 you already have would be the ones I would carry.

But if you actually need to be able to shoot out to 500, then you need something quite different. My son carries a 375 Ruger loaded with 260gn Accubonds for sambar deer in Australia. He has a 1-4 March scope mounted so he can carry the rifle on minimum power when stalking heavy cover, but if he sees a deer across a gully out to 500 meters he can dial elevation and still take the shot. So if that is close to what you might encounter, your 375 Ruger with a suitable scope might be the best choice?

Photo of my son's 375 Ruger for reference:

300 yards is really out of my comfort zone for shooting at big game but as you know game can cover ground fast. If the client is ok with me backing him up I'm case he makes a mistake, a 300+ yard shot can become very possible very quickly with a retreating animal

 

[Tam Dl]

I would worry less about rifles and calibers and more about: (chasing down an article on details)

- Accuracy, of the practical in field type.
- Gaining a ton of experience with one rifle, which means ammo as near to 30-06 as possible in Canada
- Learn to reload. Particularly in Canada. Not as a hobby, but as a means of getting good ammo to practice with.

The marketing cycle in the US and similar countries is driven by cheap rifles in the 500-2000 range (inflation). And it is hard as an enthusiast not to get all excited about latest products. What happens is people fall in love with the latest greatest, adding to that good 6.5x55, a good Creedmore. They end up with lots of similar quality rifles. If one talks about better rifles, ones hear how expensive they are, when it turns out that the guns in question are less than the 14 Savages, Ruger low end, etc... they have. Nobody is pushing the professional grade rifles that have been polished up for feed, or have a great trigger, maybe some top end glass, a stock that actually fits (hardly any off the rack rifles fit)...


I noticed you said you don't have the fascilities to reload. I started with a lee loader, the whole this is the size of a die box, add hammer. Probably not practical for the large stuff, but there are cheap and compact options. It is a real game changer.

 

[ActionBob]

My opinion is the 375 is your best bet all around. If you can get them, buy Swift factory ammo loaded with 300 grain A Frames and give up on the idea of solids. Solids are for penetration of several feet on elephant, rhino, and maybe hippo, possibly buffalo as the backup bullets. I've seen a solid go into the neck of a buffalo and exit the rear ham You don't have animals needing that type of penetration. The other use for a solid is to limit damage to a pelt.

You need good penetration with good expansion to hit with lots of retained energy. Ideally you do not want an exit because when that bullet exits, it takes remaining energy with it. Granted it gives you a nice blood trail.. But for stopping power you want to dump all the energy into that animal.

If you can't get Swift factory ammo. Try to get DGX Bonded. I would avoide Hornady GMX. I had some real issues with those blowing apart or shattering and others not expanding. Just very inconsistent. The 270 grain SP RP worked wonders for me on big plains game in Africa so I would even use those if need be.

Out of the calibers you mentioned, I like them all and I think all are very capable for the needs you discribe. I would use bonded sofys with all. Trophy Bonded Bear Claw or Swift A Frames. The 375 can have as good or better trajectory as the 9.3x62. And better than the others at longer ranges. A 375 H&H should be capable of the same range with similar trajectory as a 30-06. A 375 Ruger is supposed to do in a 20" barrel what 375 H&H can do in a 24". A 375 Ruger in a longer barrel should up performance incrementally.

A 458 and 416 would have greater stopping power at close range. Maybe one of those for Polar Bear defense? But I would stick with softs for more stopping power.

 

[Nwrangler]

I would worry less about rifles and calibers and more about: (chasing down an article on details)

- Accuracy, of the practical in field type.
- Gaining a ton of experience with one rifle, which means ammo as near to 30-06 as possible in Canada
- Learn to reload. Particularly in Canada. Not as a hobby, but as a means of getting good ammo to practice with.

The marketing cycle in the US and similar countries is driven by cheap rifles in the 500-2000 range (inflation). And it is hard as an enthusiast not to get all excited about latest products. What happens is people fall in love with the latest greatest, adding to that good 6.5x55, a good Creedmore. They end up with lots of similar quality rifles. If one talks about better rifles, ones hear how expensive they are, when it turns out that the guns in question are less than the 14 Savages, Ruger low end, etc... they have. Nobody is pushing the professional grade rifles that have been polished up for feed, or have a great trigger, maybe some top end glass, a stock that actually fits (hardly any off the rack rifles fit)...


I noticed you said you don't have the fascilities to reload. I started with a lee loader, the whole this is the size of a die box, add hammer. Probably not practical for the large stuff, but there are cheap and compact options. It is a real game changer.

Part of the problem right now in Canada, and I'm sure it is in your part of the world, is the availability of components, is a very big issue with getting into reloading these days. I also just really like guns and have the fantastic problem of not knowing which one to use! The 9.3's are old Husqvarnas, the 375 Ruger a Guide Gun, the 416 a Model 70 safari express, the 458 WM a Zastava that looks like it was made im high-school shop class. But the action feels solid and has a big steel claw. I have a custom HS precision PHL in 300 WSM as well. I wouldn't say I buy cheap rifles but I'm also not putting a Blaser in the scabbard on my horse and beating it off of 600-800 miles worth of trees and willows and constant rain for months at a time in the Yukon. If you could invest in the proper reloading supplies for the cartridges listed above, which one would you focus on?

 

[Nwrangler]

My opinion is the 375 is your best bet all around. If you can get them, buy Swift factory ammo loaded with 300 grain A Frames and give up on the idea of solids. Solids are for penetration of several feet on elephant, rhino, and maybe hippo, possibly buffalo as the backup bullets. I've seen a solid go into the neck of a buffalo and exit the rear ham You don't have animals needing that type of penetration. The other use for a solid is to limit damage to a pelt.

You need good penetration with good expansion to hit with lots of retained energy. Ideally you do not want an exit because when that bullet exits, it takes remaining energy with it. Granted it gives you a nice blood trail.. But for stopping power you want to dump all the energy into that animal.

If you can't get Swift factory ammo. Try to get DGX Bonded. I would avoide Hornady GMX. I had some real issues with those blowing apart or shattering and others not expanding. Just very inconsistent. The 270 grain SP RP worked wonders for me on big plains game in Africa so I would even use those if need be.

Out of the calibers you mentioned, I like them all and I think all are very capable for the needs you discribe. I would use bonded sofys with all. Trophy Bonded Bear Claw or Swift A Frames. The 375 can have as good or better trajectory as the 9.3x62. And better than the others at longer ranges. A 375 H&H should be capable of the same range with similar trajectory as a 30-06. A 375 Ruger is supposed to do in a 20" barrel what 375 H&H can do in a 24". A 375 Ruger in a longer barrel should up performance incrementally.

A 458 and 416 would have greater stopping power at close range. Maybe one of those for Polar Bear defense? But I would stick with softs for more stopping power.

Thank you for the great reply. Will not consider the solids any more. Only reason was because other than the 450 woodleighs they are lightest grain I could buy in factory ammo. I have about 10 boxes of the 270 SP-RP and I think 4 or 5 of the DGX bonded. Do you think the 270's would be a better mix of trajectory and expansion compared to the DGX or would you just go with the DGX? When using the 9.3 out in the field it regulated great with the 250 accubond 2 inches high at 100 and the 325 oryx dead on the bullseye at 100 yards, 3 bullets in the same hole with a leupold VX-R 1-4. Was fantastic, but after watching a bear run away with a hole in his head after getting shot my natural response was to go with more gun. Could just be an anomaly and I'm overthinking it now, but it is nice to talk to you guys and share experiences either way.

 

[WillMFerguson]

@Nwrangler: if you can find the ammo in the U.S., just have it shipped. If that's not possible, I have a colleague who was born and raised in Sask, who has dual citizenship (who, oddly enough, has been hunting in Africa serveral times). He could probably take it across the border (he drives up every couple of months) and ship it from inside Canada. Just a thought. I do ammo and component runs (AKA Freedom Runs) to my beleaguered brothers and sisters in the People's Socialist Republik of Washington. Not trying to be weird or whatever.

 

[Longwalker]

If it was me doing your job I'd choose the 9.3 or the .375 Ruger. My reason is that either used with good bullets will give deep enough penetration on any bear that walks. And good bullet expansion at the same time. The .416 and the .458 are more powerful, but what would that power actually do for you? I don't believe any solid bullet is a good choice for bear. Expanding bullets for those cartridges are often made so tough that they might not expand very much on a relatively "soft" bear. Recoil can become a challenge to manage during quick second or third shots. Rifle weight can also be a drag with bigger than necessary rifles.
The ammunition for 9.3x62 and .375 Ruger are much more available in northern Canada. I see them stocked in local stores, but have seldom seen .416 Remington and might never have actually seen .458 for sale. You had one bad experience with a 9.3 and a relatively lightweight, lightly constructed 250 grain Nosler accubond bullet. That bullet, and the Hornady Interlock 285 grain, do not have a great reputation according to the experienced folks on Canadian Gun Nuts forum. I predict that with a proper 285 grain bullet, made by Norma (Oryx), Nosler (Partition), Swift (A frame), or Lapua (Mega) that bear would have been stopped efficiently.
Your Ruger .375 is just a wee bit more of a good thing, without being too much. The only bullet Hornady loads in it worth considering for your work is the DGX bonded 300 gr. Between the 9.3 & .375, I'd pick the rifle that operated most reliably, that I could get good ammunition for, most liked to carry and that I shot best under pressure, quickly.

 

[Amphibious]

I guided moose and bear for a few years in BC, once upon a time. Carried a 375 H&H or a 450 Marlin lever depending on the situation. Both served me well.

 

[Longwalker]

@Nwrangler: if you can find the ammo in the U.S., just have it shipped. If that's not possible, I have a colleague who was born and raised in Sask, who has dual citizenship (who, oddly enough, has been hunting in Africa serveral times). He could probably take it across the border (he drives up every couple of months) and ship it from inside Canada. Just a thought. I do ammo and component runs (AKA Freedom Runs) to my beleaguered brothers and sisters in the People's Socialist Republik of Washington. Not trying to be weird or whatever.

Nice offer to help, but while Canadians can legally import ammunition from the USA, the USA doesn't allow ammunition to be exported without an exporters permit. No easy way for your friend to take ammo across the border, according to USA rules.