From 4457 Multiple rifles

Discussion in 'Before & After the Hunt' started by QuailyBirds, May 16, 2019.

  1. QuailyBirds

    QuailyBirds New Member

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    We will be traveling (3 total, myself and two sons) to Africa this summer and taking along with us 5 guns total that will be in 3 gun cases (2,2,1 in each case) when we travel.

    I think I can check all 3 cases under myself and just pay the extra fees? We will be flying Delta. Does anyone have experience doing this?

    My issue is that if I can't check all 3 cases under me, and I have to check the other 2 gun cases under my sons, does their name need to be on the form 4457 as the owner of the guns in those cases? Or can my name be on it and they check it? I appreciate anyones experience on this topic. Thanks
     

  2. MMAL

    MMAL GOLD SUPPORTER AH Enthusiast

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    Great question to a very unique situation. My first question back is are you worried about US CUSTOMS or a foreign country. Many Africa countries will not allow one person to import more than 2 or 3 rifles per person. (Depending on country). Something about gun trafficking. Thus if the 4457 is all in your name, not gonna happen. Some need to be in your sons name. As I write this I realize that I have answered my first question so Us customs don’t matter. Good luck.
     
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  3. QuailyBirds

    QuailyBirds New Member

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    Good point thank you for bringing that to my attention.

    It seems Mozambique limits 2 rifles per person. So I think that we will have to get the 4457 signed so I have 2 under my name and then the other 3 split between my sons so no one has more than 2.
     
    meigsbucks, Philip Glass and CAustin like this.

  4. CAustin

    CAustin AH ENABLER BRONZE SUPPORTER AH Ambassador

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    I think that’s exactly how I would do it!
     
    Philip Glass likes this.

  5. sestoppelman

    sestoppelman AH ENABLER AH Ambassador

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    Are your sons over 18? Might make a difference to someone on the way.
     

  6. Hogpatrol

    Hogpatrol AH ENABLER SILVER SUPPORTER AH Legend

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    Are you transiting through Joburg?
     

  7. JimP

    JimP AH Elite

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    Also you might want to check and see what kind of permits you are going to need in the country that you will be hunting it and if a non permit holder can be in possession of the firearm.
     

  8. riflepermits.com

    riflepermits.com SPONSOR Since 2015 AH Enthusiast

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    Please send me an email to henry@riflepermits.com as I will need more information from you to give you the correct advise?

    Kind regards
    Henry
     

  9. GA Hunter

    GA Hunter AH Fanatic

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    Here is the answer to all your concerns in Joburg. Probably also a good idea to consult with your outfitter. Good luck with all,!
     
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  10. Philip Glass

    Philip Glass AH ENABLER LIFETIME BRONZE BENEFACTOR AH Legend

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    Email Henry and get the straight story before you go.
     
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  11. One Day...

    One Day... AH Fanatic

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    Hello QuailyBirds;

    Here are a few thoughts for you to consider:

    First, South Africa Police Services (SAPS) limits the temporary import to 4 firearms per hunter, therefore if you plan on taking 5 firearms they cannot all be under the same name, therefore the same SPAPS 520. So, you will need two different SAPS 520.

    Second, I do not know if you considered this, but no more than 1 of the 4 firearms may be of the same caliber, so if you and your sons are using rifles in identical calibers, this can be a further consideration. For example, if all three of you shoot your own .300 Win Mag, you will need three different SAPS 520.

    Third, I do not know if you considered the ammunition question? The SAPS 520 is also the document that allows you to import ammo. The maximum is 200 rounds of ammunition per person per firearm, but this is not the issue. The issue is that airlines limit ammo to 11 lbs, including container and TSA lock. You will promptly reach 11 lbs if you accumulate the weight of an individually checkable ammo container (a requirement on internal flights in RSA) and a reasonable amount of ammo for several rifles/calibers. You likely want to consider that.

    Fourth, are you sons legally allowed to own a rifle in the US? Age is of course a criterion, but there are other legal criteria that may apply.

    If the answer is no, they will not get a US CBP 4457, the chain of custody will be broken (same name on US CBP 4457, passport, airfare / firearms checking tag, SAPS 520), and SAPS will refuse a temporary permit. You will need to go down to the maximum of 4 firearms on your own SAPS 520, and ammo will be scarce with 11 lbs. for 4 calibers.

    If the answer is yes, then it seems easy. One would think 1 SAPS 520 with 2 rifles and ammo and 1 SAPS 520 with 3 rifles and ammo. But you said there will be 3 rifle cases, therefore the next consideration applies.

    Financial consideration, if one person bringing 3 rifles in 2 rifle cases would result in checking a third luggage, you likely want to consider that the usual fee is for a third luggage is $200 (or more) with most airlines, while the fee for a pre-approved SAPS is generally in the $100 range. It is likely less expensive to do 3 SPAS 520 than 3 luggage, if all 2 of your sons can get a US CBP 4457.

    In any case, my recommendation is to obtain pre-approved SAPS 520, this REALLY takes a lot of stress out of the process, therefore my recommendation is to use a South African broker like RiflePermits, Afton Safari Lodge, or others and follow their advice :)

    I hope this helps...

    Enjoy your Safari :)
     
    Last edited: May 17, 2019

  12. sierraone

    sierraone AH ENABLER SILVER SUPPORTER AH Legend

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    Do any of you understand why the OP is trying to carry the guns and ammo in this manner? Are the two sons adults? If so, then let each son obtain his own 4457 and 520 forms and carry his own guns and ammo for SA and for Moz. Why is the OP making this so difficult? Or another way to look at it is exactly what is it that I don't understand???
     

  13. Arctic97

    Arctic97 AH Senior Member

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    Here is another thing I just found out - Do not try to share a rifle case with someone else. I just got back from a 20 day trip and we transited through JNB. SAPS no longer "likes to see" 2 different people share one rifle case. I did this with a hunting partner, as he had never flown with guns and I had a good double case. Luckily, we had used the services of Mr. X, with Afton Safari Lodge, and as always, he managed to make the SAPS office a 5 minute stop for the 3 in my party, skirting this issue. Just one more thing that they do not put out in writing, but they may decide to hang you up on, so be aware everyone. No sharing of a rifle case among your group!
     

  14. QuailyBirds

    QuailyBirds New Member

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    The main issue is that my sons live in different cities than where the guns currently reside and do not come in town that often, and I needed to apply for permits quickly because my sons were added on late to the trip. I was trying to avoid having them fly to my city purely for the purpose of getting a 4457 signed. However that was the only option as Moz only allows 2 guns per person. Everyones situation is different and encounters it's own issues, I am sorry if it caused you confusion.
     
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  15. QuailyBirds

    QuailyBirds New Member

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    Thanks for the help from everyone else though, we have figured everything out. I will be taking two guns, and the other 3 guns split between my two sons, with everyone taking their own guns in their own cases.
     
    Arctic97 likes this.

  16. Arctic97

    Arctic97 AH Senior Member

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    Good for you. That "new" requirement they told us about where they did not want different permittee's sharing a gun case was a surprise. Not sure that it is in writing, but if anyone reading this can avoid it, I would. One less thing to get hung up on......
     

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