Early trials with a Snider

[fourfive8]

Thanks, that is a very kind offer. Yes much appreciated so when you get a chance. I'd like to get an idea about the pressure curve with 5744 in the Snider. My Snider has a 30 inch barrel. Please run three loads all using mag pistol primer, 520 gr cast bullet and Accurate 5744 powder. Interested in predicted pressure in psi and velocity in fps. The three variables of 5744 charges to run are: 20 gr. 30 gr. and 40 gr.

 

[afmelo]

I could not find an exact match for your bullet in the program - the most close was a 505gr Lyman Minie, so I have used this bullet for the calculations.
Running the program for 20gr, 30gr and 40gr as suggested. Attach the correspondent files herewith. Hope this may help!

 

[afmelo]

Snider chamber pressure
Data from another forum

max average pressure...... 1500bar
mean proof pressure........ 1875bar

So average pressure is higher than expected:
max average pressure...... 21.756 Psi
mean proof pressure........ 27.195 Psi

 

[afmelo]

Curious - compare with 16gr of Unique, same bullet and about 1200fps speed range

 

[fourfive8]

Thank you for running the program! That is exactly what I was needing to look at. As I suspected, those three powder weights spanned my critical area of interest for the pressure curve for 5744. With 40 gr edging up toward the max pressure for the Snider according to the data posted on the British forum. I had read those threads a few years ago but didn't remember the post on the MAP and Mean Proof pressures. I will likely first try 28 gr 5744 under a 520 gr bullet to begin with to see if it pressurizes up to the interpolated pressure/velocity of about 7500 PSI/1050 FPS. A couple of years ago I tried just under 20 gr of 5744 under that bullet with less than acceptable results.

The Unique Powder predicted data makes sense. It would be interesting to run a series of increasing weights to look at that pressure curve also. I suspect increases in powder weight will get to the Snider's acceptable MAP pretty quickly. I would guess a similar steep pressure curve would also show for Trailboss. But Trailboss has extremely low density which can be tricky to second guess and fools many reloaders into thinking it is relatively slow burning. However its burn rate is not much slower than Bullseye! I know a lot of reloaders use smalls quantities of various fast pistol powders for cast bullet rifle loading but I will continue to stay far away from those loads in these old guns.

 

[gizmo]

Ok so awesome thread, I do not own one yet but have always been very interested in them. Definitely a gun on my short list to acquire.
Now question, can you explain your rig to cut the brass down in a bit more detail. I have two Martini Henry rifles. One made by Wesley Richard’s and was a RSA contract rifle made for South Africa just before the 2nd Boer War. It’s in excellent condition and stamped ZAR. The other is an 1870 model MkII short lever made in 1878. Anyway, I also have to cut 24ga brass down to make the 577-450 ammo. I have yet to find a suitable way to do it. Thanks

 

[fourfive8]

Ok so awesome thread, I do not own one yet but have always been very interested in them. Definitely a gun on my short list to acquire.
Now question, can you explain your rig to cut the brass down in a bit more detail. I have two Martini Henry rifles. One made by Wesley Richard’s and was a RSA contract rifle made for South Africa just before the 2nd Boer War. It’s in excellent condition and stamped ZAR. The other is an 1870 model MkII short lever made in 1878. Anyway, I also have to cut 24ga brass down to make the 577-450 ammo. I have yet to find a suitable way to do it. Thanks

I know exactly what you mean about cutting that much off of a thin brass case like the 24 ga Magtech. I really hate to ruin brass that is hard to come by or is expensive!

I built a simple cutoff saw type "jig" using a Dremel tool with a large diameter cut off wheel (composite abrasive type). I started with a flat piece of 10" pine. I mounted the Dremel securely on the wood base with a couple of clamps. Then rigged a sliding table with a guide rail onto which an untrimmed case is held by finger pressure. The slide with the case moves 90' to the Dremel's axis to ensure a square cut. I turn on the Dremel and slide the moving table with the case very slowly into the running cutoff blade. I premark the locations for the cut on the cases before starting. By going slowly and controlling the case in the sliding table with firm finger pressure helps prevent bending, collapsing or gouging the thin wall of the case during the cut.

 

[afmelo]

I experienced the same difficulties! Started with a small Proxxon table saw, but it did not work, unless I used a wood stick inside the cartridge to give support to the cut. Not practical!

Then, as I have a mini lathe, thought that with a system to help fixing the cartridge would probably work. So I have cut a small 2" piece of aluminum pipe with a long cut to enable "squeezing" the cartridge safely inside and it works well, although from time to time the aluminum suffers from my amateur operation of the lathe...

I post herewith photos of the system I use.

 

[fourfive8]

@gizmo, Here's the crude little cutoff tool I made for trimming the 24 ga brass. Seems to work and makes consistent, clean cuts without damage to thin case walls
pic series for basic tool and procedure

before and after lengths, I cut my Snider brass to 1.98"
labeled "tool" with Dremel clamped and stationary ready for cutting
close up just at beginning of trim
close up just after trim
Shallow U shaped vee with stop to hold case during cut

 

[afmelo]

Great, simple, very practical setup!

 

[afmelo]

Thank you for running the program! That is exactly what I was needing to look at. As I suspected, those three powder weights spanned my critical area of interest for the pressure curve for 5744. With 40 gr edging up toward the max pressure for the Snider according to the data posted on the British forum. I had read those threads a few years ago but didn't remember the post on the MAP and Mean Proof pressures. I will likely first try 28 gr 5744 under a 520 gr bullet to begin with to see if it pressurizes up to the interpolated pressure/velocity of about 7500 PSI/1050 FPS. A couple of years ago I tried just under 20 gr of 5744 under that bullet with less than acceptable results.

The Unique Powder predicted data makes sense. It would be interesting to run a series of increasing weights to look at that pressure curve also. I suspect increases in powder weight will get to the Snider's acceptable MAP pretty quickly. I would guess a similar steep pressure curve would also show for Trailboss. But Trailboss has extremely low density which can be tricky to second guess and fools many reloaders into thinking it is relatively slow burning. However its burn rate is not much slower than Bullseye! I know a lot of reloaders use smalls quantities of various fast pistol powders for cast bullet rifle loading but I will continue to stay far away from those loads in these old guns.

I will run more tests in due course for the powders you mention and similar.
In the meantime as importing anything related to guns is a nightmate with customs here, have you tested LEE MOLD R.E.A.L. .58 CAL. 440GRS, the sole aparently available in Europe?
I have tried these so far without great success...

Lead bullets .575/510 Minié EPRX | Strobl.cz

Black powder & muzzleloader bullets ARES .575/510 Minié. EPRX coating - lead cast colour bullets with unpainted base.

www.strobl.cz

 

[afmelo]

Test with TrailBoss - for the average speed of 1200 fps, need to load 21.5gr, which will produce a chamber pressure of 21.148 PSI, a clear no-go load!

 

[fourfive8]

I will run more tests in due course for the powders you mention and similar.
In the meantime as importing anything related to guns is a nightmate with customs here, have you tested LEE MOLD R.E.A.L. .58 CAL. 440GRS, the sole aparently available in Europe?
I have tried these so far without great success...

Lead bullets .575/510 Minié EPRX | Strobl.cz

Black powder & muzzleloader bullets ARES .575/510 Minié. EPRX coating - lead cast colour bullets with unpainted base.

www.strobl.cz

Yes I tried the Lee REAL in a couple of true BP muzzleloaders when Lee first put it on the market. Did not work well for me, even though I had had good success with the engrave-on-loading sold base T/C Maxi conicals in 48" twist guns. The REAL on paper should have also worked but didn't. I even tried it in a 28" twist modern ML I had at the time. Still not good. With the lack of a variety of available bullets to try in the Snider, I also tried the 58 cal REAL. Again not very good at all! After many trials with several bullets I decided to just order a couple of molds from Accurate for what should be the correct bullet choices for the Snider. Both in .600" diameter- the 440B and the 520P. Currently, I'm working mostly with the 520P because it seems to stabilize well in the 48" twist of my Snider MKIII and it is closest to the profile of the bullet found in original Snider cartridges. Best of all this load range appears to work and is within safe margins !!! Again, thanks for running the data.

Today finally some good weather so went to the range with a couple of 2 shot loads based on the data you provided. I had worked up a worksheet to look at the predicted pressure curve for 20, 30 and 40 grains of 5744 under a 520 gr bullet. The data was run for stored 505 gr bullet. Not enough difference to worry about especially since I'm interested in staying within the lower third to half of the curve based on an approx. MAP proof in the low 20k psi range. The loads I shot today were 28 gr 5744 under a 520P and 30 gr under a 520P. Only two shots per load. The 520P's grooves were lubed with SPG plus a 1/16" lube cookie was smeared onto the base. A mild roll crimp applied with the mouth of the rim centered on the thin top drive band. I use magnum large pistol primers in the Magtech brass.

Top pic- two original Snider cartridges for reference.

Next 2 pics- loaded round with 520P bullet and a freshly cast 520P bullet without lube.

Mid- pic of worksheet I used to have a look at the shape of the curve and at the inflection points of the pressure curve within pressure levels of interest- seems normal for 5744 and nothing unusual about the shape.

Bottom- pic of target shot with 28gr and 30 gr loads. 30 gr load target superimposed on top and shown by two black dots. Both groups shot to same POI with the 28gr load at .7" group and the 30gr load at 1.0". Probably not significant enough but certainly indicates good results for first run of the 5744 in that load/pressure range.

 

[fourfive8]

Test with TrailBoss - for the average speed of 1200 fps, need to load 21.5gr, which will produce a chamber pressure of 21.148 PSI, a clear no-go load!

Yes, thanks for posting that! It is what I would have expected with Trailboss. Yet lots of loaders play with it in large capacity cases. IMO, they confuse the load density limiting nature of the powder with reduced burn speed or low pressure- YIKES. If folks would step back and realize it has a burn speed similar to Bulleye they would treat it with more caution. It's best use is for such small capacity cases and reduced cast bullet loads in 38 SP or even 45 ACP. It can have some application in the reduced loads of cowboy action game but loaders still need to respect it's burn speed.

 

[afmelo]

Yes I tried the Lee REAL in a couple of true BP muzzleloaders when Lee first put it on the market. Did not work well for me, even though I had had good success with the engrave-on-loading sold base T/C Maxi conicals in 48" twist guns. The REAL on paper should have also worked but didn't. I even tried it in a 28" twist modern ML I had at the time. Still not good. With the lack of a variety of available bullets to try in the Snider, I also tried the 58 cal REAL. Again not very good at all! After many trials with several bullets I decided to just order a couple of molds from Accurate for what should be the correct bullet choices for the Snider. Both in .600" diameter- the 440B and the 520P. Currently, I'm working mostly with the 520P because it seems to stabilize well in the 48" twist of my Snider MKIII and it is closest to the profile of the bullet found in original Snider cartridges. Best of all this load range appears to work and is within safe margins !!! Again, thanks for running the data.

Today finally some good weather so went to the range with a couple of 2 shot loads based on the data you provided. I had worked up a worksheet to look at the predicted pressure curve for 20, 30 and 40 grains of 5744 under a 520 gr bullet. The data was run for stored 505 gr bullet. Not enough difference to worry about especially since I'm interested in staying within the lower third to half of the curve based on an approx. MAP proof in the low 20k psi range. The loads I shot today were 28 gr 5744 under a 520P and 30 gr under a 520P. Only two shots per load. The 520P's grooves were lubed with SPG plus a 1/16" lube cookie was smeared onto the base. A mild roll crimp applied with the mouth of the rim centered on the thin top drive band. I use magnum large pistol primers in the Magtech brass.

Top pic- two original Snider cartridges for reference.

Next 2 pics- loaded round with 520P bullet and a freshly cast 520P bullet without lube.

Mid- pic of worksheet I used to have a look at the shape of the curve and at the inflection points of the pressure curve within pressure levels of interest- seems normal for 5744 and nothing unusual about the shape.

Bottom- pic of target shot with 28gr and 30 gr loads. 30 gr load target superimposed on top and shown by two black dots. Both groups shot to same POI with the 28gr load at .7" group and the 30gr load at 1.0". Probably not significant enough but certainly indicates good results for first run of the 5744 in that load/pressure range.

View attachment 535340

View attachment 535333
View attachment 535334
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View attachment 535336

Calculations for 5744 28gr which seems to be a very good load!

 

[afmelo]

Now the calculation of a similar load using Vihtavuori N110 - sightly lower pressure and more 87fps speed!

 

[fourfive8]

Super! My interpolation for both the pressures and velocities were spot on. I would imagine the pressure for the 520gr bullet would be slightly higher and the velocity to be slightly lower. When I get more time for another range day I'll chronograph the 28gr and 30 gr load loads to verify. In any case those velocity numbers should be very close to original BP specs.

 

[fourfive8]

Yes, the numbers comparing 5744 and VV N110 are very close. Maybe worth a try as it is one of the powders you have access to. Still, I would be extra cautious with any Snider, especially one of the conversions.

 

[afmelo]

New calculation with a slightly faster powder - Vihtavuori N105
It is incredible that this software forecasts 1210 fps with a such low chamber pressure producing 8378 PSI only!
Does this make sense to you?

 

[fourfive8]

Yes, the numbers for that powder also look good but as the speed of the powder goes up, so does the potential for small errors in loading and small increases of powder causing geometric, thus unexpected spikes in pressure. Both N110 and N105 are in the burn speed zone that may work in the Snider. One thing I do when looking at this type data is to construct a simple pressure curve. Then at the point of interest of the intercept between charge and pressure on the curve, draw a tangent line at that point. The slope of the tangent line at that point instantly gives an intuitive, visual feedback of the geometric relationship between the charge and pressure. IMO and in my thought process, the steeper that slope, the greater the potential for an "unplanned" excursion into a zone of extreme pressure.

Another thing that may play a role in powder suitability for any particular application is the chemical nature the powder. I think generally, no matter the burn speed, double base powders inherently carry greater stored chemical energy than single base powders.

Pic is of a chart by Vihtavuori showing relative burn speeds of various powders. More data is always better. This copy is dog-eared for a reason