Double Rifles vs Bolt Actions - Speed tests

[rookhawk]

Fair enough . I have only rudimentary knowledge on doubles But l do know that he is capable of making some of his double rifles regulate with 2 loads . As l understand , this is a rarity among double rifles ?

A couple points:

1.) on this very forum we saw a Searcy gun that was improperly repaired by Searcy. He wouldn’t stand by the gun and had the audacity to come on this forum and tell everyone thinking about buying that gun that he will not repair it for anyone, ever.

2.) Every double rifle will regulate with many, many loads. Figuring out which ones have the same point of impact is trial and error.

 

[Fastrig]

Sorry but I could not find the information regarding time trials with bolt action rifles versus doubles. It went pretty much as expected, though. Double rifles were quickest on the second shot then bolt action rifles came into their own for the third and fourth (although, on at least on occasion a fella with a double was damn near as quick with the fourth as some were with their bolt guns). Personally, if I was looking for a rifle which has all of the qualities one seeks, in this regard, I wouldn’t look any further than a R8. The straight pull action is scary quick to work (further, it is the strongest action of which I know (it places the stressed component in compression rather than shear, as is the case with a “normal” bolt action rifle), and one can change calibers on a whim…what more could you want?).

As with a things, practice makes perfect. Choose what you can afford (and like) and make it work.

I was considering a double rifle at one point, but after handling a Blaser R8 and seeing how fast it cycles, then thinking through the scenario(s) I'd be hunting in, i.e. with a PH, I couldn't see where a very expensive double made any sense for me as a "client" to carry. You have at least one PH backing you up, normally with a "stopping" power rifle, so more than one rifle barrel is ready to go immediately which kind of negates the need for a client needing a double. The only place I'd use a double is Africa so why not get a rifle like the R8 that is useful in Africa, the States, or pretty much anywhere else I'd want to hunt, for a fraction of the price of the double. I'm going with a R8 with 375 H&H and 300 win mag barrels, can't think of anything I can't do with that combo alongside a PH.

 

[Hoss Delgado]

A couple points:

1.) on this very forum we saw a Searcy gun that was improperly repaired by Searcy. He wouldn’t stand by the gun and had the audacity to come on this forum and tell everyone thinking about buying that gun that he will not repair it for anyone, ever.

2.) Every double rifle will regulate with many, many loads. Figuring out which ones have the same point of impact is trial and error.

I cannot disagree with more experienced gentlemen than myself. Clearly , you have valid points to dislike him . I can only speak from my own experience with Mr. Searcy. I understand he has had health problems as of late . I had no idea about his refusal to fix his own gun. Truly , a disappointment , considering how much respect l have for a Craftsman of his talent. I do know that the examples of his pieces which l have held and fired were very high end. Of course , l know not much about the world of doubles and my standards are far low than gentlemen experienced with them. I have only ever hunted ONE animal with a double rifle my entire life .

 

[rookhawk]

I was considering a double rifle at one point, but after handling a Blaser R8 and seeing how fast it cycles, then thinking through the scenario(s) I'd be hunting in, i.e. with a PH, I couldn't see where a very expensive double made any sense for me as a "client" to carry. You have at least one PH backing you up, normally with a "stopping" power rifle, so more than one rifle barrel is ready to go immediately which kind of negates the need for a client needing a double. The only place I'd use a double is Africa so why not get a rifle like the R8 that is useful in Africa, the States, or pretty much anywhere else I'd want to hunt, for a fraction of the price of the double. I'm going with a R8 with 375 H&H and 300 win mag barrels, can't think of anything I can't do with that combo alongside a PH.

Not disputing the coolness of the R8, but I think you're mixing metaphors. An R8 in a small bore or medium bore while a fine rifle, is not the same thing as a large bore double rifle. Different tasks, different strengths.

As to speed of reloads, a SxS DR with a speed loader can get 4 off faster than most anyone can get off 3 with a small or medium bore magazine rifle. In a large bore (thus not straight pull R8) the double rifle will be consistently faster. For example: a 416 Rigby Mauser with its muzzle jump and the fact that you must operate the bolt by lowering the gun, will not get 4 lethal shots off faster than a 450-400 double rifle in equally capable hands. Same story goes for two shots off. So the only scenario where the magazine rifle wins is 3 shots...and now we're splitting hairs.

Now if you want to adjust the comparisons to small bore double rifles (e.g. .303, 7x65, 30-40 krag) versus an R8 for speed of loading and accurate shooting, plus the utility factor, yes, I think the R8 is a clear winner. The small DR owner would reply back with "I agree, but the R8 is ugly compared to my 1930s smallbore double rifle". <- That would simply be an opinion, but you would have them beat on the speed/control of firing in a more apples-to-apples manner.

 

[rookhawk]

I cannot disagree with more experienced gentlemen than myself. Clearly , you have valid points to dislike him . I can only speak from my own experience with Mr. Searcy. I understand he has had health problems as of late . I had no idea about his refusal to fix his own gun. Truly , a disappointment , considering how much respect l have for a Craftsman of his talent. I do know that the examples of his pieces which l have held and fired were very high end. Of course , l know not much about the world of doubles and my standards are far low than gentlemen experienced with them. I have only ever hunted ONE animal with a double rifle my entire life .

I don't like or dislike Mr. Searcy, I've never spoken to him so I have no personal opinion on the matter. I have serious issues with what he did to the gun mentioned here https://www.africahunting.com/threa...double-in-500-416-ne.44901/page-7#post-480159 and how he caused tortious interference in the sale by putting further shade on his own gun by refusing to stand behind it when Searcy's repair clearly was not quality/acceptable to the standards of a gunsmith the level Mr Searcy purports to be. For Butch Searcy money, you can buy a used British double, a Chapuis, a Verney-Carron, a Krieghoff, a Blaser, Merkel, or Heym. There are many options out there and I do not believe any of them would have voided a warranty or done a repair in the way Mr. Searcy did on the linked rifle.

Would you buy any product knowing that when you try to sell it, the Manufacturer will come onto your ad and say to the world "Don't buy this gun, It's broken and I WILL NEVER FIX IT"?

 

[Hoss Delgado]

I don't like or dislike Mr. Searcy, I've never spoken to him so I have no personal opinion on the matter. I have serious issues with what he did to the gun mentioned here https://www.africahunting.com/threa...double-in-500-416-ne.44901/page-7#post-480159 and how he caused tortious interference in the sale by putting further shade on his own gun by refusing to stand behind it when Searcy's repair clearly was not quality/acceptable to the standards of a gunsmith the level Mr Searcy purports to be. For Butch Searcy money, you can buy a used British double, a Chapuis, a Verney-Carron, a Krieghoff, a Blaser, Merkel, or Heym. There are many options out there and I do not believe any of them would have voided a warranty or done a repair in the way Mr. Searcy did on the linked rifle.

Would you buy any product knowing that when you try to sell it, the Manufacturer will come onto your ad and say to the world "Don't buy this gun, It's broken and I WILL NEVER FIX IT"?

Not playing Devil's advocate here , but isn't it good to be brutally honest , saying that a gun is beyond repair ?
He was negligent in fixing it , but at least he admitted it and warned people , right ?

 

[IvW]

I would never ever buy a Searcy double in any caliber...

 

[IvW]

Not playing Devil's advocate here , but isn't it good to be brutally honest , saying that a gun is beyond repair ?
He was negligent in fixing it , but at least he admitted it and warned people , right ?

Wrong...

 

[Hoss Delgado]

Wrong...

Okay. I accept then . It is wrong for me to defend someone whom l only met once and clearly people are not fond of his work ethic for a reason

 

[Hoss Delgado]

I would never ever buy a Searcy double in any caliber...

I don't use Doubles at all . More of a bolt action guy myself , IvW. So l really can only speak from what little l have seen .

 

[rookhawk]

Not playing Devil's advocate here , but isn't it good to be brutally honest , saying that a gun is beyond repair ?
He was negligent in fixing it , but at least he admitted it and warned people , right ?

Not really. The original defect sounds like it was badly formed chambers with the result being damaged, non-reusable brass. (or dramatically shortened life of the brass) The manufacturer had a clear manufacturing defect that was not caused by wear and tear or normal use. The manufacturer chose to not make new barrels and did a horrible band-aid repair that did not cure the issue. So financially, he took a gun that was a nuisance and would have sold at a 25%-30% reduction in value with the seller stating "works great, shoots great, eats brass, here's a discount because you're going to need to use factory or new brass every time". That's acceptable. But what now? The manufacturer did a horrible repair that has really eroded the guns value and made the problem the same-or-worse while introducing new issues. He then states he will not ever work on the gun again on the seller's advertisement? (Tortious interference, because that public declaration further harms the guns value and resulted in financial damage to the seller, i.e. he never sold the gun, and the offers he got for it were $2500-$3000 as a result, my offer being one of those if not the only offer)

You cannot run a manufacturing company in that manner in my opinion and have any credibility. Butch Searcy could have come on this forum and said the right answer "problems occur in manufacturing, but our sevice is number one. We will make new barrels for this gun, that's why you buy a Searcy, you can be confident it will be done right or we will do what's right to fix it". <- That post that never happened would have lived on for the ages leading to many new sales for Mr. Searcy, rather than this rehash of bad press. Add to that, the damage got worse when the seller/owner went to the hands-down top Double Rifle mechanics in the nation and got statements from them that they will never work on a Butch Searcy rifle.

 

[Hoss Delgado]

Not really. The original defect sounds like it was badly formed chambers with the result being damaged, non-reusable brass. (or dramatically shortened life of the brass) The manufacturer had a clear manufacturing defect that was not caused by wear and tear or normal use. The manufacturer chose to not make new barrels and did a horrible band-aid repair that did not cure the issue. So financially, he took a gun that was a nuisance and would have sold at a 25%-30% reduction in value with the seller stating "works great, shoots great, eats brass, here's a discount because you're going to need to use factory or new brass every time". That's acceptable. But what now? The manufacturer did a horrible repair that has really eroded the guns value and made the problem the same-or-worse while introducing new issues. He then states he will not ever work on the gun again on the seller's advertisement? (Tortious interference, because that public declaration further harms the guns value and resulted in financial damage to the seller, i.e. he never sold the gun, and the offers he got for it were $2500-$3000 as a result, my offer being one of those if not the only offer)

You cannot run a manufacturing company in that manner in my opinion and have any credibility. Butch Searcy could have come on this forum and said the right answer "problems occur in manufacturing, but our sevice is number one. We will make new barrels for this gun, that's why you buy a Searcy, you can be confident it will be done right or we will do what's right to fix it". <- That post that never happened would have lived on for the ages leading to many new sales for Mr. Searcy, rather than this rehash of bad press. Add to that, the damage got worse when the seller/owner went to the hands-down top Double Rifle mechanics in the nation and got statements from them that they will never work on a Butch Searcy rifle.

Thank you RookHawk and IvW , for explaining that to me in Detail I learn something new from you gents everyday. I read your post properly and from from what l understand People are more angry about Butch's damn care attitude to the problem than the negligence itself . In such a case , l guess people have every reason to be angry. It is a shame though.
He seemed like such a consummate professional back in 2013 when l photographed that Big 4 gauge Rifle . Some client bought it for 85 thousand . Oh well .

 

[Fastrig]

Not disputing the coolness of the R8, but I think you're mixing metaphors. An R8 in a small bore or medium bore while a fine rifle, is not the same thing as a large bore double rifle. Different tasks, different strengths.

As to speed of reloads, a SxS DR with a speed loader can get 4 off faster than most anyone can get off 3 with a small or medium bore magazine rifle. In a large bore (thus not straight pull R8) the double rifle will be consistently faster. For example: a 416 Rigby Mauser with its muzzle jump and the fact that you must operate the bolt by lowering the gun, will not get 4 lethal shots off faster than a 450-400 double rifle in equally capable hands. Same story goes for two shots off. So the only scenario where the magazine rifle wins is 3 shots...and now we're splitting hairs.

Now if you want to adjust the comparisons to small bore double rifles (e.g. .303, 7x65, 30-40 krag) versus an R8 for speed of loading and accurate shooting, plus the utility factor, yes, I think the R8 is a clear winner. The small DR owner would reply back with "I agree, but the R8 is ugly compared to my 1930s smallbore double rifle". <- That would simply be an opinion, but you would have them beat on the speed/control of firing in a more apples-to-apples manner.

I'm not disagreeing with your assessment of the effectiveness of doubles at all, however the reason for the double is that you have two barrels/rifles ready to fire very quickly. My comments are based on the "scenario" I'm hunting in, which in this case isn't solo but with at least one PH who also has a rifle in hand ready to shoot, thus two barrels, at a minimum, ready to fire on the DG. From the "client" side, I just don't see the need to drop a ton of money on a nice double for this kind of hunting situation, but can see where a PH definitely would as he's the backup for the client's first shot. Just about every video I've watched on hunting in Africa there were three rifles at the ready, sometimes four or more depending on the number of people in the group. That's a lot of fire power being brought to bear very quickly if something takes a turn for the worse. I haven't seen one where the "client" would have been better off with a double over a bolt action (especially a R8) in their hands (sure there are rare exceptions to that though). Now the PH's, that's a different story altogether and can definitely see why they would carry a big double, i.e. for all the reasons you so articulately stated.

A final thought, most people can't handle those big bore doubles, they take a LOT of practice to become proficient with and the majority of "clients" are recreational hunters who aren't going to invest that kind of time to attain that level of proficiency. I'm no shrinking violet at 6' 220 lbs., am not overly recoil sensitive, but am honest enough with myself to KNOW that one of the big doubles wouldn't be appropriate in my hands as I don't have the time to invest in it appropriately. That R8 though I could handle very proficiently in short order, cycle very quickly, and hit what and where I aim it. If I was a PH taking my tail out into the bush, I'd rather have the later than the former in a client.

 

[rookhawk]

I'm not disagreeing with your assessment of the effectiveness of doubles at all, however the reason for the double is that you have two barrels/rifles ready to fire very quickly. My comments are based on the "scenario" I'm hunting in, which in this case isn't solo but with at least one PH who also has a rifle in hand ready to shoot, thus two barrels, at a minimum, ready to fire on the DG. From the "client" side, I just don't see the need to drop a ton of money on a nice double for this kind of hunting situation, but can see where a PH definitely would as he's the backup for the client's first shot. Just about every video I've watched on hunting in Africa there were three rifles at the ready, sometimes four or more depending on the number of people in the group. That's a lot of fire power being brought to bear very quickly if something takes a turn for the worse. I haven't seen one where the "client" would have been better off with a double over a bolt action (especially a R8) in their hands (sure there are rare exceptions to that though). Now the PH's, that's a different story altogether and can definitely see why they would carry a big double, i.e. for all the reasons you so articulately stated.

A final thought, most people can't handle those big bore doubles, they take a LOT of practice to become proficient with and the majority of "clients" are recreational hunters who aren't going to invest that kind of time to attain that level of proficiency. I'm no shrinking violet at 6' 220 lbs., am not overly recoil sensitive, but am honest enough with myself to KNOW that one of the big doubles wouldn't be appropriate in my hands as I don't have the time to invest in it appropriately. That R8 though I could handle very proficiently in short order, cycle very quickly, and hit what and where I aim it. If I was a PH taking my tail out into the bush, I'd rather have the later than the former in a client.

That's a fair self-assessment @Fastrig

What I would say in counterpoint is that A.) The hunter is ultimately accountable for his actions and his own safety. B.) That 90%+ of people do not know how to use a straight-pull R8, nor a double rifle with minimum proficiency.

It is a very rare thing that someone uses an R8 and keeps the rifle to their cheek while pulling the bolt back to their face...it takes faith and memory that the bolt will stop before it hits your eye. It also takes proficiency to load, shoot, and immediately reload a double rifle. Both proficiencies can be built over time. If you have a heritage of using double barrel shotguns with double triggers in your past, the double rifle muscle memory is largely there before you purchase your first one. Same if you've used straight-pull rifles like Mannlicher Steyrs and Schmidt-Rubins and Ross rifles previously.

I do not think your preferences are negligent or flawed at all. I have a different confidence, aesthetic, and preference but your way isn't worse, its just different. Anyone that says either way is unsafe is a fool. In both cases, proficiency with one's weapon is the ultimate deciding factor.

On that note, everyone go play with their guns and make sure you can operate them flawlessly.

 

[TTundra]

I would only add to the last few comments is that while I do not 'need' a double to hunt as a client, but would sure love to hunt with one. Nostalgia or not, there is a romance there permitting the funds.

 

[CTDolan]

Not disputing the coolness of the R8, but I think you're mixing metaphors. An R8 in a small bore or medium bore while a fine rifle, is not the same thing as a large bore double rifle. Different tasks, different strengths.

As to speed of reloads, a SxS DR with a speed loader can get 4 off faster than most anyone can get off 3 with a small or medium bore magazine rifle. In a large bore (thus not straight pull R8) the double rifle will be consistently faster. For example: a 416 Rigby Mauser with its muzzle jump and the fact that you must operate the bolt by lowering the gun, will not get 4 lethal shots off faster than a 450-400 double rifle in equally capable hands. Same story goes for two shots off. So the only scenario where the magazine rifle wins is 3 shots...and now we're splitting hairs.

Now if you want to adjust the comparisons to small bore double rifles (e.g. .303, 7x65, 30-40 krag) versus an R8 for speed of loading and accurate shooting, plus the utility factor, yes, I think the R8 is a clear winner. The small DR owner would reply back with "I agree, but the R8 is ugly compared to my 1930s smallbore double rifle". <- That would simply be an opinion, but you would have them beat on the speed/control of firing in a more apples-to-apples manner.

The R8 is available in up to .500 Jeffrey...not exactly a small/medium bore!

 

[rookhawk]

The R8 is available in up to .500 Jeffrey...not exactly a small/medium bore!

I stand corrected. For many of their guns I thought they topped out at .375HH.

 

[Fastrig]

That's a fair self-assessment @Fastrig

What I would say in counterpoint is that A.) The hunter is ultimately accountable for his actions and his own safety. B.) That 90%+ of people do not know how to use a straight-pull R8, nor a double rifle with minimum proficiency.

It is a very rare thing that someone uses an R8 and keeps the rifle to their cheek while pulling the bolt back to their face...it takes faith and memory that the bolt will stop before it hits your eye. It also takes proficiency to load, shoot, and immediately reload a double rifle. Both proficiencies can be built over time. If you have a heritage of using double barrel shotguns with double triggers in your past, the double rifle muscle memory is largely there before you purchase your first one. Same if you've used straight-pull rifles like Mannlicher Steyrs and Schmidt-Rubins and Ross rifles previously.

I do not think your preferences are negligent or flawed at all. I have a different confidence, aesthetic, and preference but your way isn't worse, its just different. Anyone that says either way is unsafe is a fool. In both cases, proficiency with one's weapon is the ultimate deciding factor.

On that note, everyone go play with their guns and make sure you can operate them flawlessly.

Very good points and I don't disagree with your premises in the least. I would say that it's the recoil of those big bore doubles that's going to mess with most folks more than anything else, i.e. "controlling" the rifle for that follow up shot. Know that would be the issue for me. If you can't control that first shot to get back on target for the second shot, no rifle type is worth a damn IMO. I've watched videos of those big doubles being shot and they flat move big men backwards pretty hard so can see that technique to use them efficiently is definitely required, that means lots of practice.

I can practice cycling that R8 bolt while watching TV and build the muscle memory it requires. Could do the same for loading and unloading a double to get quick at that. What I can't do from my home though is practice controlling a 470 NE or 500 NE for accurately taking that first shot, controlling that huge recoil, and getting back on target to quickly and accurately take that second shot. With the R8, outside of the cycling action, it is no different than bolt actions I use today so won't require the same investment of time as the double rifle to master. Like you pointed out, no right or wrong here, it's just what works for each hunter and they should use whatever they are the most comfortable and proficient with.

I still WANT a double rifle though, they are just plain cool, beautiful, and scream Africa hunting....my pragmatic side though is telling my other side No

 

[Fastrig]

I stand corrected. For many of their guns I thought they topped out at .375HH.

They actually have a number of caliber options above the 375 H&H. They don't have a 404J though, if they did I'd already have bought a R8 in that, though my wife would probably have used it on me when I did....LOL. You can't get the thumb hole or adjustable stock options in anything over the 375 H&H, but all of the traditional stocks can be had up to the 500J.

 

[Red Leg]

That's a fair self-assessment @Fastrig

What I would say in counterpoint is that A.) The hunter is ultimately accountable for his actions and his own safety. B.) That 90%+ of people do not know how to use a straight-pull R8, nor a double rifle with minimum proficiency.

It is a very rare thing that someone uses an R8 and keeps the rifle to their cheek while pulling the bolt back to their face...it takes faith and memory that the bolt will stop before it hits your eye. It also takes proficiency to load, shoot, and immediately reload a double rifle. Both proficiencies can be built over time. If you have a heritage of using double barrel shotguns with double triggers in your past, the double rifle muscle memory is largely there before you purchase your first one. Same if you've used straight-pull rifles like Mannlicher Steyrs and Schmidt-Rubins and Ross rifles previously.

I do not think your preferences are negligent or flawed at all. I have a different confidence, aesthetic, and preference but your way isn't worse, its just different. Anyone that says either way is unsafe is a fool. In both cases, proficiency with one's weapon is the ultimate deciding factor.

On that note, everyone go play with their guns and make sure you can operate them flawlessly.

Rook - normally you and I are in complete agreement on most things, but your comments on the R8 are absolutely incorrect. It is not only easy to cycle the R8 while maintaining cheekweld, it is intuitive. Far more intuitive than a regular bolt action that takes a lifetime of practice to do the same. And I should note, that I have actually fired many hundreds of rounds from R8s in many different calibers and configurations - unlike many of its critics.

I have previously said that I believe a double is a nano-second quicker to the second shot than a R8. But I am sure number 3 & 4 will be much quicker with the R8 and both will easily outstrip and standard bolt action in the average hunter’s hands.

I also believe that a DR is a pretty poor choice for most people to take on their first DG hunt. Very few hunters today are truly competent with irons and fewer still with the manual of arms associated with a double. As you note, true proficiency with classic SxS’s offers a huge head start. But the limitations of the rifle itself remains - particularly on ever shorter buffalo hunts where the client gets exactly one opportunity in bad light at a Duga boy standing in dark cover among his chums at eighty yards. Piece of cake with a scoped .375 - with a .470 double - not so much.