Double rifles and Elephant

[Rare Breed]

I would prefer the 577NE for stopping power on a purely elephant safari.

In either case, I do not like the powder choices because you're enduring horrific recoil needlessly. I'd get both guns regulated with a powder like 3031 or RL15 that will greatly diminish recoil at the same velocity, allowing you a much faster recovery for the second follow-up shot.

Wisdom!!!!! My experience exactly!

 

[SRvet]

I could not leave the H&H at home !!

 

[50Gunner]

Adam Stevens, You're exactly right, the 577 is indeed a beast, a handful of 750gr Barnes flat nosed solids headed out the back door for quick point and shoot drills in the pasture is one of life's great pleasures, I would imagine that big Heym sidelock 600 NE Hunter-Habib hunted with is all that and a whole lot more.

Rafiki, great idea, I'll order another Graffunder before we go gun shopping, plus, noting you've hunted Tanzania, your next safari must be on the Moon, that would be most expensive, huh?

Kevin Peacocke, that's a huge part of safari for Wife and me, the miles in searing heat, sweat, dust, wind blown dirt in your eyes, thorns, all of it sir, when you cap that with a full bag with every animal on your list plus a few more in the salt, it's a done deal man, we will carry those memories for life.

uplander01, you bet he can, that rifle has integral quarter rib Express sight, integral banded ramp front sight and barrel band sling swivel, would love to only be a fly on the wall getting to watch those Craftsmen work, the inside of the action is polished glass smooth and shiny, bet it would feed solids loaded in the case backwards.

 

[50Gunner]

SRvet, I believe your Countrymen have made that near impossible to do, believe if I didn't bring the H&H i would forever regret it, about to turn 63, so barring getting hit by a Mack truck maybe time will allow several more Safaris.

 

[dgr416]

Walk softly and Carry a big stick as Teddy would say .Teddys long safari was one of the greatest Safaris in History .He opened the gates for others to follow .Those are both Awesome bully guns have fun shoot straight and stay safe .

 

[Rafiki]

The H&H all day long. How could you not? Dress the part, lend the whole experience every touch you can to make it worthy of the fine elephant you will take.

Yes, dress the part, Pith Helmet ant all.

 

[Tanks]

I'd be conflicted as are you. I always say biggest caliber one can shoot accurately. That being said, the extra 3 pounds adds up in the jesse. Not to mention getting the H&H back to Africa.

I'd be leaning slightly towards the H&H .500/450.

 

[Rare Breed]

I highly recommend buying a 15 pound cardio bar and take it on 6-10 mile walks using similar carries you will do in Africa and do it on hilly terrain. Do it in the heat for realness and then see how you do. This is the one thing I do that gives me confidence given I do this in GA in 90 degrees with a 100+ heat index factoring in humidity. This is when you find out what you can really handle.

 

[50Gunner]

dgr416, yes sir, he indeed paved the way for a whole industry that still thrives today, Thanks for the well wishes and will do.

Tanks, starting to think the same way, I have absolutely no doubts about the 450gr Northfork flat nosed solids at 2210 fps penetrating more than enough and dead line straight.

Rare Breed, earlier in this thread I posted about 11 miles per day with that very 577, wet dry river sand, hills and mountains, The M'barangandu reserve is known for it's very strenuous hunting terrain, granted that was in 2020, I'll of course be 6 years older come the fall of 2026, I am retired but bang around with farm work all the time.

Have cut, split and stacked 10 ricks of water oak and hickory on the back porch for firewood with 8LB maul, about to be 63, 6'2" in my socks, last weight a Doc's check was 236lbs, cardio as you say is indeed where it's at, I'll be more than ready when the time comes.

Only five Safaris under my belt, but near 50 animals with one shot each save insurance shots with solids at PH request, I aim to keep it that way.

 

[BJH65]

Sounds like you’ve already had some pretty strenuous hunts and know exactly what kind of shape you need to be in to be successful and you seem pretty fit. We’re similar in age, height and weight, I’m 60, 6-3, 228 and primarily do farm chores and outdoor stuff to stay in shape, my CrossFit days and weight training are long over with although I still do bodyweight routines and jogging.

For nostalgia, yes take the H&H 500-450 but sounds like you are plenty capable of carrying and using your 577 so that’s what I would take. When you’re a bit older, then take the H&H but take that 577 now, there may come a day when it’s too much! When we reach our 60’s I think we start aging in dog years! Besides, it’s not often we see African hunters taking a 577 Nitro into the field so the selfish part of me wants to read about it!

 

[Rare Breed]

dgr416, yes sir, he indeed paved the way for a whole industry that still thrives today, Thanks for the well wishes and will do.

Tanks, starting to think the same way, I have absolutely no doubts about the 450gr Northfork flat nosed solids at 2210 fps penetrating more than enough and dead line straight.

Rare Breed, earlier in this thread I posted about 11 miles per day with that very 577, wet dry river sand, hills and mountains, The M'barangandu reserve is known for it's very strenuous hunting terrain, granted that was in 2020, I'll of course be 6 years older come the fall of 2026, I am retired but bang around with farm work all the time.

Have cut, split and stacked 10 ricks of water oak and hickory on the back porch for firewood with 8LB maul, about to be 63, 6'2" in my socks, last weight a Doc's check was 236lbs, cardio as you say is indeed where it's at, I'll be more than ready when the time comes.

Only five Safaris under my belt, but near 50 animals with one shot each save insurance shots with solids at PH request, I aim to keep it that way.

Sounds like you are in great shape and ready to go. 11 miles per day in sand had to be tough!!!

 

[kpoynter]

Hey guys… question. Is the .500/.450 Ammo still made in production?
I’ve seen some of these H&H rifles and wondered if it was available or like the .450 3” (I think) basically stopped being made
Or…is it one of these that some ammo can be shot out of it?
Some of these old model calibers confuse me some as to what modern ammo can actually be run through (and safely with modern pressures)

 

[Mtn_Infantry]

I believe Kynoch was the last source for commercially loaded ammo, and they have recently closed their doors. Original Kynoch ammo can often be found online for collecting purposes.

Bertram has offered brass, dies can be found, as well as powder/projectiles. Period correct projectiles are a bit difficult to find but they’re out there.

If you’re ordering a new production gun in this caliber (or one of the other more obscure NE calibers) from one of the big British makers you might be able to order it with some custom loaded ammo from them. After all, they’re going to have to regulate it.

If you’re interested in any double rifle, being a handloader is a necessary evil.

 

[Rafiki]

MidwayUSA has 500/450 #1 brass for $5.95/each

 

[jc_corley12]

Am sort of conflicted here, have a beautiful Holland Royal 500-450 Nitro with 26" barrels that swings like a bird gun, have also worked up a beautifully regulating load with 450gr Northfork flat nosed solids at 2210 fps over H-4831, the rifle is a spitting image of TR's rifle he used on the Smithsonian year long Safari, it's also just a couple serial numbers off his rifle.
The other choice is a mighty V\C boxlock 577 Nitro, also with 26" barrels, it's load with the 750gr Barnes banded flat nosed solid at 2076 fps over H-4350 needs no explanation, it is also very accurate.

With Ele, Lion and any other excellent representative of a plains game species will be on the list, the plains game, bait and cat rifle will be a beautiful Winston Elrod built 458 WM, he built it on a 1950 year model Winchester 70 375 H&H length action because he recognized the built in SAAMI throat length of the great 458 WM will let you load rounds to 3.585 inches.
It's loads are the 404gr Hammer bullet along with the excellent 400gr CEB #13 flat nosed solid, both loads clock 2600 fps.
The 404gr Hammer is already proven by me on Buffalo down to Impala, 20 to near 200 yards, longest animal travel after the shot was a 44" beautiful blue/black Sable bull, most all others dropped dead at the shot, including the Buffalo.

So, what double would you knowledgeable men carry for Ele? I can shoot both with equal accuracy, can also carry both just fine, even though the 577 weighs 3lbs more.

Thanks in advance.

Jesus, talk about your steak being too juicy, your lobster too buttery, your wife too oversexed, and your dog too good at finding birds why don’t ya.

 

[50Gunner]

BJH65, you're exactly right, same here, I remember the days when I had to be in pretty solid shape, putting two 45lb plates in a pack, then purposefully using bulkier powders in the 308 winchester that required a drop tube so one could sit and stand while charging each round with powder, put up 200 rounds of 308 would get you a good solid workout at the loading bench.

Pretty well beat up and banged up from that crazy old life, but, a very firm believer if a man gives up, quits, hits a chair, we are not long for this world.

Rare Breed, I wont lie, that hunt was very hard, it wasn't all wet/dry river sand, hill and mountain walking too, I remember one instance that made me feel better about my huffing and puffing, we were following a herd of buffalo up a mountain to try and sort a good bull out once we reached the flat on top and they dispersed, that herd actually stopped midway up the mountain, I heard one buffalo cough, they caught their breath then slowly started the rest of the way to the peak.

I laughed to myself, hell, these great animals live here, if they need to stop for a windbreak, I'm doing pretty good packing this 10 round shellbelt, Damascus skinner and 14.5lb 577 LOL, when I got home from that hunt, I pulled the recoil pad and removed a 1LB mercury recoil reducer, the rifle is now of course one pound lighter, can't tell a bit of difference in recoil, it still boots the crap out of you.

Gents, guess I was lucky when that Holland became available for purchase, it came with 100 new sticks of Bertram brass and a set of CH4D dies with shell holder, I still have 20 cases unfired and 4 loaded rounds left telling me I have only fired the rifle 76 times in the over two decades I've owned it.

JJ Perodeau gave it a good going over awhile back, he also told me he could build/rebuild any part in that great Holland sidelock action, we are ALL damn lucky to have a Craftsman like him still in business to keep our guns up and running.

jc corley 12, That's very funny sir, but true, I happen to remember in a former life being hanged for cattle rustling how rough that new rope was they used to stretch my neck.

 

[Rare Breed]

BJH65, you're exactly right, same here, I remember the days when I had to be in pretty solid shape, putting two 45lb plates in a pack, then purposefully using bulkier powders in the 308 winchester that required a drop tube so one could sit and stand while charging each round with powder, put up 200 rounds of 308 would get you a good solid workout at the loading bench.

Pretty well beat up and banged up from that crazy old life, but, a very firm believer if a man gives up, quits, hits a chair, we are not long for this world.

Rare Breed, I wont lie, that hunt was very hard, it wasn't all wet/dry river sand, hill and mountain walking too, I remember one instance that made me feel better about my huffing and puffing, we were following a herd of buffalo up a mountain to try and sort a good bull out once we reached the flat on top and they dispersed, that herd actually stopped midway up the mountain, I heard one buffalo cough, they caught their breath then slowly started the rest of the way to the peak.

I laughed to myself, hell, these great animals live here, if they need to stop for a windbreak, I'm doing pretty good packing this 10 round shellbelt, Damascus skinner and 14.5lb 577 LOL, when I got home from that hunt, I pulled the recoil pad and removed a 1LB mercury recoil reducer, the rifle is now of course one pound lighter, can't tell a bit of difference in recoil, it still boots the crap out of you.

Gents, guess I was lucky when that Holland became available for purchase, it came with 100 new sticks of Bertram brass and a set of CH4D dies with shell holder, I still have 20 cases unfired and 4 loaded rounds left telling me I have only fired the rifle 76 times in the over two decades I've owned it.

JJ Perodeau gave it a good going over awhile back, he also told me he could build/rebuild any part in that great Holland sidelock action, we are ALL damn lucky to have a Craftsman like him still in business to keep our guns up and running.

jc corley 12, That's very funny sir, but true, I happen to remember in a former life being hanged for cattle rustling how rough that new rope was they used to stretch my neck.

love it!!! You are definitely experienced in Africa knowing what you need to do to be ready!!! Like you I well remember climbing the Waterberg mountains exhausted only to have the buff smell us and gone!!!

 

[frog stealer]

This one is easy, take both the H&H and the V/C. Use the 577 on Ele, and the H&H on everything else. At least that is what I would do if I was in your fabulous predicament.

Sounds like you and I came to the same conclusion on loads for the .577...my Heym 89b regulates with Barnes TSX beautifully with 133 grains of H4350, I'm guessing your load is within a few grains of that. I like H4831sc for the shorter lead core bullets, but H4530 fills the case perfect with the TSX. As you likely already know, anything that fills the case with the .577 is best.

 

[50Gunner]

Rare Breed, I've heard of those massive Waterberg mountains from PH's, also some pretty good climbs and looong shots at game in the Free State, an outfit I've hunted with three times now has a very large property out there now, guess I would have to pack old custom 7mm Mashburn or 300 PRC with twisty scopes to tag out on a bag of plains game there.

frog stealer, great idea, an 11 inch wide rock in a pond bank 89 yards away is regularly hammered with my doubles resting over the hood of an old 1856 Ford 960 wide front tractor, great fun and practice, just as one may do in Africa off sticks or rested against the side of a termite mound.

The 577 really hammers the hell out of that rock, I started that after a horror story from a booking agent on my 2020 Tanzania hunt, he and his PH had doubles only, they watched a well over 50" Cape Buffalo bull wander down the river to disappear forever into the grass unscathed, said he nearly got physically sick LOL.

I don't take my doubles out for 100 yard shooting, but man if the bull of 10 lifetimes is out that far, he's going to get a flat nosed solid on the butt, then track him up ASAP and get it settled, the solid will be found in his chest cavity or neck if it doesn't downright exit the animal.

I tested that theory on an already taken Cape Buffalo bull, had camera/photo guy turn all that stuff off, got a stick and drew lines in the dirt, one line where I would place the bullet at entry, and another where the bullet should exit the bull in a straight line.

This was with what some may consider a puny cartridge, the great 400 Whelen with old style 400gr Woodleigh solids at 2267 fps over CFE-223 powder, I squatted down and popped that great bull on the right ham, saw dirt fly up in front of the bull about 20 yards out, that little solid bored a straight line hole all the way through that great beast exiting his left shoulder, really cool to get to do LIVE testing on the real thing when you're able.

Done the same with a 400gr CEB #13 solid at 2400 fps from a 400 H&H on a massive Zebra stallion in Tanzania.

The Holland has three loads, all 450grs, the SS soft point, cup and flat nosed solids, and of the flat nosed solids be it the 458 cal 450's, 500 Nitro with 570gr Barnes or 750gr Barnes from the 577, would wreck all going in the back of a Buffalo.

We have an all double rifle Safari planned for northwestern SA on the Limpopo next to Botswana, walk, stalk, work the wind and shoot any and all great animals we can close enough too and plenty of ice cold Windhoek Lagers at days end, little 303 British double with 215gr Woodleigh softs and CEB copper 210gr solids for plains game, any double in 450, 500 or 577 for the heavy lifting should we find a nice Buffalo or Eland bull.

I greatly appreciate all the info, experiences and replies, but alas, I remain conflicted on this bull Elephant hunt.