Double Rifle suggestions for a first double rifle?

[Rare Breed]

Also remember Rizzini isn't a thing. It's MANY companies. I think there are SIX Rizzinis. FLLI Rizzini Makes $250,000 guns. The Rizzini that makes those 416 Rigby double rifles is not the same guys that make high dollar guns.

Agree, however, while I think they make great shot guns, the 470 DR Rhino model I bought should be avoided given I will bet my farm it would be sold within 4 weeks after use.

 

[rookhawk]

Agree, however, while I think they make great shot guns, the 470 DR Rhino model I bought should be avoided given I will bet my farm it would be sold within 4 weeks after use.

The great Rizzini shotguns aren't made by the same company that makes the Rhino double rifle. There are many people in Italy named Rizzini, most had the same great-great grandfather. The various Rizzinis vary from the most expensive guns in the world to junk for the discount rack. They cannot trademark a last name so its very confusing for consumers.

No FLLI Rizzini is junk, but most Rizzinis are not FLLI Rizzinis.

 

[Rare Breed]

The 470 NE Rhino is almost always under $10,000 and can be very tempting to the first time DR buyer who may not understand the need for LOP and weight for caliber. Do not make the same mistake I did many years ago with this being my first DR purchase due to my ignorance.

 

[dhughes66]

The weight was always my primary concern when it came to the Rizzini. I don't know much about double rifles but I do know that 9lbs is too light for a 470NE. If they made it in 450/400 that would be different.

 

[Rare Breed]

Your LOP and proper weight for caliber goes a long way in a DR. I have owned Rizzini, Chapuis, Merkle and Rigby in different calibers for a total of 8. All but the Rizzini were a pleasure to own and shoot

 

[steve white]

Have it built with the rear sight moved forward, almost like a Battue sight arrangement. Your aging eyes will thank you, and you will be able to focus with iron sights YEARS longer.

I don't know why more people don't do this.

 

[Mountaineer]

Consider a used O/U. You can get a better quality rifle at a more affordable price.

 

[Beck]

I'd spend the extra money and get a heym

 

[mdwest]

I'll lead with I HAVE NEVER OWNED A DOUBLE, NOR DO I INTEND ON OWNING ONE... I thought about it very seriously at one time.. and even did a little shopping.. and then determined I'd be personally better served with a couple of really nice magazine rifles rather than a double....

That said, Ive handled quite a few, and have a substantial number of friends that own and shoot them regularly..

Based on the feedback Ive gotten from them, and from what Ive seen here on AH, of the choices you lay out, I think Chapuis would be where I start.. While not common, I have heard complaints about Merkel from time to time.. and I just dont know enough about the Rizzini options to even know where to start (although they make some absolutely wonderful double shotguns)...

We have a member here that is an invaluable source of information on Chapuis (@Tom Leoni )... and there are a good number of members here that own and/or have owned Chapuis, and I cant recall any of them ever saying they regretted making the purchase..

Were I shopping for a NEW double DG rifle, a Chapuis in 470 is likely where I'd focus my search..

Were I shopping for a double rifle in general (to include used), my aperture would be opened much more widely.. For example, I've seen some beautiful turn of the 20th century Army-Navy doubles go for only marginally more than a Chapuis or Merkel..

For example there is an Army-Navy 450/400 3 1/4 NE currently on Guns International for $16,495.... that seems a lot more attractive to me than a new Capuis or Merkel.. although since I acknowledge that I know little to nothing about doubles, before I went and dropped 5 figures on a rifle that would likely only get hunted 3-4 times in the rest of my lifetime, I'd be hitting up members like @rookhawk , @Red Leg , @ActionBob , and @Houston Bill for as much information and advice as possible.. I know they all have much better insight and knowledge when it comes to doubles than I ever will..

Army & Navy 450-400 3 1/4 NE Box Lock for sale

Army & Navy 450-400 3 1/4 NE Box Lock for sale online.

www.gunsinternational.com

Also understand that FOR ME, I dont really look at firearms as investment purchases.. I do trade, swap, etc.. quite a bit.. but I go into each purchase at least thinking/planning to keep the firearm for the rest of my life.. so I focus far more on what I think I can afford, what I think I really want, and whether or not Im really going to use it.. and focus far less than many others on whether or not I will get my money back out of the rifle or make money on the rifle in the long run..

So… 72 hours later… my wife has made a liar out of me

There will be a Chapuis Iphisi 375 in the safe in a couple of days…

It’s a very long story… but the short version is… it is a “thank you” gift that a client bought for her… I set her up with a buddy that owned a fairly good sized firm that needed some external accounting assistance to help him get some things straightened out and help him get through the process of selling his business…

18 months later… my buddy is a millionaire, my wife owns a double… and I’ve got to pick up the tab on a 2026 buffalo hunt now…

Somehow I think I got screwed in all of this!

FWIW, the beretta gallery is selling the iphisi for $9999… and if you’re a first time buyer from the gallery they’ll give you a 10% off discount code, bringing the rifle down to $8999… they happened to have one on the shelf… it will be ready for pick up at my FFL on Wednesday…

 

[Rare Breed]

Too funny!!! You can’t make that up!!! Your wife should be a CEO!!!!!

 

[Rare Breed]

I would advise her to get a 450-400 versus 375…better caliber in a DR and much higher resale value. I am not a fan of a 375 in a DR, just me

 

[Canadaboy]

The best advice that I can give you is to haunt auction websites and go from there. I have previously provided a list at: https://www.africahunting.com/threads/is-a-rigby-worth-it.68478/page-5#post-901104

The reality to us impoverished Britons and Europeans, labouring under the socialist yoke, is that these rifles are expensive and difficult to shoot. For example, despite owning a .470NE myself, I am not permitted to shoot it in the UK. The result is that a lot of these rifles are in very good second-hand condition. They are cheaper to buy in Europe than in America and - although I have exported from the US to the UK and not the other way round - I am convinced that one can still buy such rifles cheaper in Europe and export them to the land of the free cheaper than buying them in the US.

Other help is available from the great Rookhawk and his thread Good gun deals this week. Under no circumstances commission a custom rifle, which is the most expensive way of going about business.

I’m in Canada so I can’t comment on the ease or cost of importing to the USA. But I’ve had great luck buying rifles (and shotguns) at auction in the UK and importing them to Canada. It is very easy for me to privately import a rifle or shotgun. Shipping isn’t cheap, but for high value firearms like double rifles the cost savings can make it worthwhile.

I’m currently importing a double rifle from Spain, it my first time importing from there and it has taken a long wait to get the Spanish export permit approved, but it has been a simple process.

I know that historically plenty of Americans have bought rifles at UK auctions. I’m curious to see whether the new US import tarrifs reduce the number of Americans buying firearms at European auctions. If so there may be even more bargains headed by way.

 

[LeonSam]

About 15 years ago, a friend of mine showed me his OU double rifle. It was a FAIR Safari 500 in 6.5x55mm.

It was a beautiful gun and my buddy bagged several deer with it.

FAIR Safari double rifles are affordable and they are a true bargain.

I actually ordered a FAIR Safari FXW double rifle today in 8x57JRS and it is my first double rifle.

So in answer to your question, the perfect double rifle for a first time owner might be the FAIR Safari double rifle.

 

[rookhawk]

Gents,

What I would say to those importing their first double rifles to save a buck or two. You’re playing a dangerous game in general. Double rifle experts are VERY wary of such foreign guns. However, experts have a rolodex of contacts to solve for every undisclosed defect and know the price of every worst-case scenario repair and regulation issue. The experts will bid or import foreign rifles assuming all the worst case scenarios.

1.) caution beginners. You were the high bidders, you outbid people with 100x the knowledge.

2.) The experts generally are gunsmiths and load developers, what they can do for $1000 in their free time costs you $5000 in your real dollars when problems are discovered.

3.) there is never a shortcut or “deal” in double rifles. The only two “deals” out there are A.) buying from a max-max-full price dealer of impeccable reputation and post sales service, or B.) a respected and knowledgeable private party expert that is selling private party wholesale. In either case, these rifles sold by A and B are going to cost a lot more than you want to spend because the risk is far less with them.


People do not correctly price the risk premium of their actions and expenditures chasing a deal. For most readers, you will dread a $10,000 double rifle and you would cherish a $10,000 bolt rifle. Please be careful, caveat emptor.

 

[Hagler.450Ex]

I'd get a 9.3x74. You'll get a LOT more use out of it. I've owned most calibers at one time or another, and if I had taken this advice, I'd have been a lot happier.

 

[Rare Breed]

Gents,

What I would say to those importing their first double rifles to save a buck or two. You’re playing a dangerous game in general. Double rifle experts are VERY wary of such foreign guns. However, experts have a rolodex of contacts to solve for every undisclosed defect and know the price of every worst-case scenario repair and regulation issue. The experts will bid or import foreign rifles assuming all the worst case scenarios.

1.) caution beginners. You were the high bidders, you outbid people with 100x the knowledge.

2.) The experts generally are gunsmiths and load developers, what they can do for $1000 in their free time costs you $5000 in your real dollars when problems are discovered.

3.) there is never a shortcut or “deal” in double rifles. The only two “deals” out there are A.) buying from a max-max-full price dealer of impeccable reputation and post sales service, or B.) a respected and knowledgeable private party expert that is selling private party wholesale. In either case, these rifles sold by A and B are going to cost a lot more than you want to spend because the risk is far less with them.


People do not correctly price the risk premium of their actions and expenditures chasing a deal. For most readers, you will dread a $10,000 double rifle and you would cherish a $10,000 bolt rifle. Please be careful, caveat emptor.

To add to this, in my experience except in my new DR, I have learned to price in an average of $3,000 spent with JJ Perodeau to get my used DRs perfect mechanically when I have bought used so I always factor that in based on 7 DRs I bought used

 

[dhughes66]

Good to know thanks for all the information!

 

[Returnspring]

Lots of great advice above, from folks with way more experience than me. I’ll share the route I took and why, as well as some of the pitfalls I’ve encountered. (This is a long post about buying older doubles at auction.)

First off, what you intend to do with the rifle dictates what you need performance-wise from the rifle. What I’m sharing may not match your needs. I’m hunting exclusively in North America and mostly for deer in WI and MN, so I’m not looking at the big boy nitro rounds, just what works for that size animal. What I collect and hunt with is appropriate for deer and elk and hogs, if that’s what you’re about. Basically a .450 or .500 firing a 300-400gr bullet moving 1800-2000fps. Or a smaller bore moving faster.

I currently own 13 double rifles. The newest was made in 1931. The oldest in 1874. Most are between 1890 and 1910. My first DR purchase was a Dickson 500BPE, 5 years ago. Of the 13 DRs, only 1 rifle came from a retailer, and that was out of the UK. The rest were all auction buys. Most here in the US, from RIA or Morphy, or off Proxibid or Gunbroker. Some from auction houses in the UK or Italy. There are boxlocks from Watson Bros, Lang, Merkel, and Army & Navy. A sidelock from Purdey. And a bunch of hammer guns with Jones underlevers from Dickson, Woodward, Alex’r Henry, Reilly, C. Lancaster and G.E. Lewis. All but the Henry are highly engraved, which made the cut only because it was basically in new condition, despite being 130 years old. The average landed cost to me was $6K. Quite a few were $4K. The Woodward (500BPE) and the Purdey (450/400 2 7/8”) were in the $10-20K range.

The auction buying experience is risky. When the hammer comes down, you own it. If the ribs are loose, you get to find an expert who can set that right. That’s happened to me once, and thankfully on a Gunbroker auction where I had an inspection period. (I kept it after a price concession to cover the repairs. Kind of wished I hadn’t but it was an uncommon rifle here in the US and less than $2500 invested including the repair.)

You limit your risks by asking questions and getting additional photos before you bid. Read the auction description with a critical eye. What’s been left out of the description? Was that on purpose? Ask if the barrels ring, or if the bores have pitting. Whatever you are worried about. If you don’t know what to be worried about, start by learning about how to assess a used SXS shotgun. Ask for pictures of the proof marks, etc. And walk away if you don’t get help with your questions. The risk isn’t worth it. Patience is a virtue. Often starting bids on Gunbroker drop after a few cycles with no interest. A couple of my rifles were purchased only after the seller dropped their starting bid 30%. Another was on GunsInternational for 2 years before the seller gave up and had a US auction house sell it. I paid 50% of the GunsInternational price at auction. That pre-war Merkel can hit small steel plates at 200yds with irons and has been stupid easy to load for, but it does have .318 bores vs the more common and current .323.

Auctions are a numbers game. You search a ton of online auctions to find lots worth investigating further. You bid on a few lots – and you always must know how high you’ll go before the live auction starts. Bidding wars are a losing proposition, so know when to drop out before emotions make you buy something you’ll regret (this is part of your market research before bidding.)

Somebody else said it, but buy the gun, not the name. So buy for high original condition and high original quality (e.g., finish, wood and engraving), as condition and quality make selling easier if you have to get out of it later. Don’t buy anything until you’ve looked at enough guns to know what old case colors look like, if the engraving is still sharp or has been buffed, and whether the stock is refinished or the checkering re-cut. Gunmaker name helps but don’t buy worn out tomato stakes just because they were made by a top maker. Know what prices are being realized in the marketplace for closed auctions. And be sure you’re looking at guns that had actual bidders if you’re looking at Gunbroker, Proxibid, Hibid, Invaluable, or Icollector, vs an unsold lot.

If you’ve done your homework, asked questions, studied the description and photos, and kept your emotions in check, you can buy an older DR for well less than current production. If you are patient, you should expect to buy below retail, but above wholesale. Someone stated this above…gun sellers have to make a profit to pay their rent and make it worthwhile to show up each day. When they sell, their retail price typically allows for a 40-50% margin. This means if they are bidding against you at auction, they can’t match what you’ll pay, since you aren’t buying to resell at a profit. This partially offsets the fact that dealers usually know the market, and repair costs, way better than you. (A caution – I highly recommend never buying a used gun you can’t reasonably and quickly sell for what you bought it for. Your tastes and needs will evolve over time and you will sell today’s treasure in the future, so don’t overpay more now than you can afford to later.)

How hard is it to make these old DRs shoot? How much does it cost? The main consideration is whether you already reload and have a press, scale, etc, and if you have the dies and brass for the new rifle’s chambering. If you reload now, then expect to spend around $1000 to load for a black powder express double. Or an older small-bore cartridge not currently factory produced. Loading for an DR without factory ammo really requires a chronograph, so get Garmin’s model, as it’s stupid easy to use and costs $600. You’ll spend another $200 for dies and $100 for 20 cases. And most importantly, buy the 4th edition of Graeme Wright’s “Shooting the British Double Rifle”, because this will tell you how the original ammunition performed, back when you’re rifle was new. Your job now is to build a load that pushes the right diameter bullet or your barrels, of a weight matching the original load, to the velocities of the original load. Quality rifles were built right and care was invested in their making to ensure they could shoot. So far, all of mine have shot well once I replicated their original loads.

One final note. I would not recommend buying a black powder express double rifle unless you reload and are open to nitro-for-black loads. There’s been a ton of research done by Bell, Seyfried and of course, Wright, on how to safely use smokeless powder to replicate the nitro-for-black load performance seen before WW1. Of the 10 DRs I have that were made before nitro, I’ve gotten half to shoot very well with black powder. But the other half were disappointing until I tried low pressure nitro-for-black loadings and jacketed bullets. Once I made that switch, groups shrunk down to 1-2.5” at 50yds, with irons, with both barrels.

So you can make auctions work and end up with rifle that looks great, has some history and can shoot. If you don't think you'll enjoy experimenting with loads, and possibly learning new skills like casting or paper patching, seriously think about buying a new DR or even a bolt gun.

 

[Pondoro]

Some very good advice from Returnspring here.. Many less known gunmakers are known for having made very good double rifles, boxlock non-ejectors and ejectors.. Names like Joseph Lang, William Evans, Charles Boswell, Charles Lancaster, C.W.Andrews, etc. made very good rifles.. There are many others.. Examine and buy wisely..