Did Rookhawk steer a fellow right?

[coreydb]

These non-mainstream, non CRF rifles in DG calibers; like my Rem 700 416 Rem Mag modified, while I built it for me because of $$$ shortage, these rifles should have stamped on the barrels "NOT FOR RESALE"

 

[skydiver386]

I think you put him on the right path.

Those rifles, and many other firearms are what we call BBQ Guns, to be fired by friends and neighbors at an outdoor BBQ.

S&W M29 44mags, Desert Eagles, etc., are purchased, fired very little, then when the owner decides he'd rather have a new Harley, he want's top dollar for it.

I don't think the 460 is as bad as some make it out to be, but the rifles themselves were not suited for it. Far to light for the caliber, thin wrist that would crack if the muzzle brake were removed, etc.

I think $2,500 will be what he'll end up getting for it, and gives the brass and pulled bullets as a bonus.

 

[Bonk]

I don’t want to shoot factory ammo in a 460W let alone unknown quality reloads.

 

[Mtn_Infantry]

You gave him the exact same advice I would’ve given him.

The handloads add zero value to this package. Pull the projectiles, dump the powder and deprime. The only added value is the brass and projectiles.

It’s a niche caliber that’s not super popular and is more of an impulse purchase than necessity for someone. He needs to find the right buyer at the right time, specifically looking for that. Gun Broker with a low starting bid, or some sort of Make an Offer are his two best COA’s and will provide the most exposure.

I love my .257Wby. I see the merit in a 300Wby but anything else I think there’s a better caliber for the job.

 

[grand veneur]

I think you put him on the right path.

Those rifles, and many other firearms are what we call BBQ Guns, to be fired by friends and neighbors at an outdoor BBQ.

S&W M29 44mags, Desert Eagles, etc., are purchased, fired very little, then when the owner decides he'd rather have a new Harley, he want's top dollar for it.

I don't think the 460 is as bad as some make it out to be, but the rifles themselves were not suited for it. Far to light for the caliber, thin wrist that would crack if the muzzle brake were removed, etc.

I think $2,500 will be what he'll end up getting for it, and gives the brass and pulled bullets as a bonus.

The cartridge 460 Weatherby Magnum was the best cartridge caliber .458 on the market before the cartridge 450 Rigby came. The latter, which offers nothing more than the cartridge 460 Weatherby Magnum, was successful because one did not make the same mistakes that were initially made with the cartridge 460 Weatherby Magnum. By this I mean, above all, a totally overloaded cartridge with unsuitable bullets to create an external ballistics that nobody needed and then offering this cartridge in a also fundamentally unsuitable rifle concept for it. In addition, it was a very bad time for something like this, a time when the colonial empires were collapsing and the future of hunting in Africa was becoming uncertain. All of this led to that the cartridge quickly receiving a very bad press. The majority of the reports were immediately very negative and are unfortunately quoted unchanged for more than 60 years, as hardly anyone in the meantime made the effort to take a closer look at this cartridge and its performance. Opinions are now firmly established and unfortunately negative judgments continue to be made about it, above all by people who maybe have fired a few shots with rifles of this caliber at some point, but who have never really look at it, especially regarding various loads and their working by hunting heavy dangerous game.

 

[sgt_zim]

@grand veneur - I'm not saying it doesn't do what it's intended to do. It and 450 Rigby are both capable cartridges. I'm saying they are both silly ideas because what's the point of a 500 gr .458 at 2500 or 2550 fps? At 200 yards, it has about the same energy as my 404 Jeff at the muzzle. But who shoots at DG from 200 yards?

If a guy can handle a rifle with 100 ft lbs of recoil, step up to one of the 50s and their 570 gr bullets.

 

[Thomas Rutledge]

I feel the advice was on point. I have never been on a safari but have tried to educate myself on such an endeavor. I own 3 safari rifles as a hobbyist. The First was a .577 Greener BPE I had Superior load develop. It was in my local shop and I had to have it. Second was a Ken Owen build 10.75x68. I then bought a 460 WM in a weatherby Mark V. The rifle functions fine, kicks like a mule and I have practiced with it enough to where I feel I could take it on a safari and be successful with full power loads and no muzzle break. These rifles are not collectible, they are tools. In my view there are very few people who could fire one accurately and the only was to tell is to practice with it.

 

[skydiver386]

@grand veneur - I'm not saying it doesn't do what it's intended to do. It and 450 Rigby are both capable cartridges. I'm saying they are both silly ideas because what's the point of a 500 gr .458 at 2500 or 2550 fps? At 200 yards, it has about the same energy as my 404 Jeff at the muzzle. But who shoots at DG from 200 yards?

If a guy can handle a rifle with 100 ft lbs of recoil, step up to one of the 50s and their 570 gr bullets.

There are several reasons I chose the 450Rigby for my DG rifle build over the larger 470 and up chamberings.

First, I wanted a magazine rifle and not a double rifle. Yes, there are some very large bores like the 505 Gibbs and 500 Jeff, but they limit magazine capacity to 3. My build will likely fit 4 total.

Second, the large frontal area of the bullet can limit penetration. All else being equal, the 416 calibers will often out penetrate larger bores.

The selection of newer bullets available negates many of the advantages of the large bore nitro express cartridges in my opinion.

I believe that if the 460 had initially been loaded to more modest pressure and velocity levels, had the advantage of modern monolithic bullets, and had been chambered without it's excessive freebore in a heavier rifle, it would have been received with enthusiasm. The 450Rigby/460Wby are what the 458 Winchester and Lott were intended to be.

Rant mode off.

 

[sgt_zim]

There are several reasons I chose the 450Rigby for my DG rifle build over the larger 470 and up chamberings.

First, I wanted a magazine rifle and not a double rifle. Yes, there are some very large bores like the 505 Gibbs and 500 Jeff, but they limit magazine capacity to 3. My build will likely fit 4 total.

Second, the large frontal area of the bullet can limit penetration. All else being equal, the 416 calibers will often out penetrate larger bores.

The selection of newer bullets available negates many of the advantages of the large bore nitro express cartridges in my opinion.

I believe that if the 460 had initially been loaded to more modest pressure and velocity levels, had the advantage of modern monolithic bullets, and had been chambered without it's excessive freebore in a heavier rifle, it would have been received with enthusiasm. The 450Rigby/460Wby are what the 458 Winchester and Lott were intended to be.

Rant mode off.

Fair point on the magazine capacity, but what does a Rigby or Weatherby get you from 0 - 100 yards that you don't also get with 20 or 30 ft lbs less recoil out of Lott or WM? "Use enough tool for the job/bring enough gun" - Lott and Win mag satisfy that. I get it if you just want a Rigby or Wby mag. But most guys just don't, and for the same reason I don't.

I don't believe I've ever heard a complaint about the 50s lacking for penetration.

 

[skydiver386]

Fair point on the magazine capacity, but what does a Rigby or Weatherby get you from 0 - 100 yards that you don't also get with 20 or 30 ft lbs less recoil out of Lott or WM? "Use enough tool for the job/bring enough gun" - Lott and Win mag satisfy that. I get it if you just want a Rigby or Wby mag. But most guys just don't, and for the same reason I don't.

I don't believe I've ever heard a complaint about the 50s lacking for penetration.

The original idea behind the 416 Rigby, which is the parent case of the 450Rigby/460Wby/338Lap, etc., was to give larger case capacity with cordite and slower powders of that period. Larger case capacity with slower powders and lower overall pressure equals easier extraction on hot days.

Because of their smaller case capacity, both the Lott and Win. Mag are usually loaded to far higher pressures with faster burning powders to equal the velocity of the larger Rigby/Wby case. The Lott is often loaded to pressures that are absolutely MAX for it's case capacity. These higher pressures, while perfectly safe at 60 degrees F, can become dangerous at 90 degrees, leading to blown primers, difficult extraction, etc. In a DG hunting situation, this is something we obviously want to avoid.

As it pertains to the OP and the Wby MKV in question, the Norma ammo was often loaded so hot that Hell itself wouldn't have it, and combined with the small extractor on the Wby rifles, it was a problem waiting to happen.

This was always the reason for larger case capacity, lower pressures, Mauser style extractors and controlled round feed. It was reliability at all cost based on common sense and many years of experience among the old timers.

 

[Certus]

Fair point, but it isn't in the same class as a .505 or .510 or .584. 460 Wby doesn't do anything a 458 WM won't do at ordinary DG distances.

I think most would consider a 458 of any stripe a stopping round. Can a 460 Wby do that better than WM or Lott or 450 NE? Can it do it as well as the 50 cals and their 500+ gr bullets? I'd say the answer to both of those is a "no."

What’s your thoughts on a .450 Rigby then? Most people think it’s the best thing since sliced bread. Just a .460 without a belt *shrugs*

When I was younger I used to dream about one of these in .378. Still wouldn’t mind one.

 

[rookhawk]

What’s your thoughts on a .450 Rigby then? Most people think it’s the best thing since sliced bread. Just a .460 without a belt *shrugs*

When I was younger I used to dream about one of these in .378. Still wouldn’t mind one.

View attachment 683832

They don’t sell well due to their newness on the market. (Like a Lott). I think they’d be fine, even if downloaded to 450NE velocities. I’ve seen best grade dakotas in 450 Rigby sell for peanuts. No objections, just noting their excess.

All you need is 400gr at 1950fps impact velocity to kill anything on earth. The 450 Rigby is way beyond sufficient for any client rifle.

 

[Certus]

There are several reasons I chose the 450Rigby for my DG rifle build over the larger 470 and up chamberings.

First, I wanted a magazine rifle and not a double rifle. Yes, there are some very large bores like the 505 Gibbs and 500 Jeff, but they limit magazine capacity to 3. My build will likely fit 4 total.

Second, the large frontal area of the bullet can limit penetration. All else being equal, the 416 calibers will often out penetrate larger bores.

The selection of newer bullets available negates many of the advantages of the large bore nitro express cartridges in my opinion.

I believe that if the 460 had initially been loaded to more modest pressure and velocity levels, had the advantage of modern monolithic bullets, and had been chambered without it's excessive freebore in a heavier rifle, it would have been received with enthusiasm. The 450Rigby/460Wby are what the 458 Winchester and Lott were intended to be.

Rant mode off.

Sounds like the .470 Capstick would have also been a good choice for you (I don’t get why it’s not more popular?)

 

[rookhawk]

Sounds like the .470 Capstick would have also been a good choice for you (I don’t get why it’s not more popular?)

Probably because 416 Rigby and 458 Winmag are so good? The world of large bore cartridges is broad but the demand is narrow.

I don’t fault any of them, but to be honest, innovation is largely unnecessary, we’ve had everything we need for a century. Minor upgrades are less important than excellent bullets.

We live in a bullet renaissance where everything deemed wholly sufficient 75 years ago is more than sufficient today.

My hope is we preserve and encourage the storied cartridges lest the go extinct: 25 Bob, 6.5 Swede/Mann, 275 Rigby, 300HH, 318WR, 416R, 470NE, 577NE. All that a man needs if we keep them alive.

 

[Flbt]

\

I would never take a weatherby made 460wby to africa, they’re too light, I don’t care for their actions (for africa, I actually really like them for deer hunting) but I would absolutely take a 460 weatherby as a gift, or pay a small amount of money for one. Shoot it a few times, have my friends shoot it, hang it on a wall (they’re often really pretty)

I have probably half a dozen double barreled shotguns I’ll never shoot, but I still like having them. They’re all unique cool pieces of history. A 460 weatherby would be cool to own I think, even if I’d prefer to use a different chambering and CRF rifle if I were to go DG hunting in africa

Years ago before the internet open a lot of doors. ( aol was still sending out the disk for dial up)
A local dr bought a mark 5 and 5 boxes of ammo.
He shot 2 rounds and put the gun up for sale.
No one wanted it at what he was asking.
Any way it finally ended up in a little shop
The owner bought it for 500$. Said the ammo was more new than what he payed for all of it.
He had a sine at his gun range where you could shoot it at 25$ a shot.
He said he was going to load up rounds when the factory ammo was gone.
Something between 45-70 and 458 w. Just to have the gun and have something to do with it.

I dont know what end up happened.
The guys son died on the lake water bording accident and the old man now has all timers and can’t remember anything

 

[sgt_zim]

What’s your thoughts on a .450 Rigby then? Most people think it’s the best thing since sliced bread. Just a .460 without a belt *shrugs*

When I was younger I used to dream about one of these in .378. Still wouldn’t mind one.

Same opinion as I have of 460 Wby. A solution for a problem that doesn't exist.

 

[grand veneur]

Anyone who was already involved with cartridges in the sixties and the seventies or even earlier, should remember what the trend was back then regarding performance of a cartridge. Advertising focused primarily on the muzzle velocity of a bullet and the kinetic energy generated. The latter was supposed to kill the game. Caliber and bullet design were not at the forefront. For this reason, the cartridge 378 Weatherby Magnum was at the end of the fifties the biggest cartridge in the Weatherby series and its generated energy was supposed to be sufficient for killing the heaviest DG. Then the cartridge 458 Winchester Magnum came onto the market and Weatherby responded by expanding the cartridge 378 Weatherby Magnum to caliber .458, unfortunately while maintaining a concept that might be valid for small and medium calibers, but not for big bore hunting cartridges. I don't know who advised Roy Weatherby at the time, or whether the idea was his, but if the cartridge 460 Weatherby Magnum had been offered with a 500gr bullet at a muzzle velocity of 2400 fps, a velocity which no cartridge in this caliber class achieved at the time, the cartridge might have been successful. Unfortunately too late, the bad reputation of the cartridge has become established and is being spread uncritically, without taking into account all the reduced hand-loads and also more modern factory loads that make the cartridge 460 Weatherby Magnum a cartridge that can be used by many hunters for hunting DG.

 

[grand veneur]

After everything more or less positive I have written about the cartridge 460 Weatherby Magnum, @rookhawk friend should not have any more problems selling his rifles.

 

[skydiver386]

Sounds like the .470 Capstick would have also been a good choice for you (I don’t get why it’s not more popular?)

Krish, a fellow member here did offer one, but I ended up buying a factory new CZ550 receiver he had with a 416 Rigby bolt face. I knew in my heart that it wanted to be a 450 Rigby when it grew up.

Kenny Jarrett is building my rifle, and he, along with the Rigby Co. developed the 450 Rigby. Kenny worked out the reamers, dies and built the first rifle in this caliber. The drawings for the cartridge were provided to Kenny by Paul Roberts, who owned Rigby at the time.

I asked Kenny about the 450 Rigbys performance on game, and he spent the next 30 minutes describing his hunting experience in Africa with it. It archived total penetration on all broadside shots, including brain shots on Elephant. In his words, there is a noticeable difference between the 458 Win, and the 450 Rigby.

I also talked briefly with Craig Boddington at the SCI this year about the rifle Kenny was building for me. His opinion is that all Dangerous Game responds to higher power levels, IF the shooter can handle the recoil, IF the bullet is adequate for the higher velocity, and IF that bullet is placed where it needs to go. He has a very favorable opinion of the 450 Rigby for Dangerous Game.

This is my PH Christo Van Dewnter, owner of Alpha Pride Safari's and one of his rental rifles is a factory CZ550 in 450 Rigby. I've discussed DG hunting with him at length and when I asked him specifically about the added power level of the Rigby his response was yes, there was clearly a difference on game. With the Swift A-Frame or the Barnes X, he believes it to be a true stomper on Dangerous Game.

The problem with many rifles, especially the Weatherby's is rifle weight vs power level. The factory Weatherby MKV in 460 is listed on their website as 9.5 pounds. It should weigh at least a pound heavier, and an added 2 pounds would make recoil less severe. The problem is most of us don't want to carry an 11pound rifle very far if we don't have to.

Which brings us to this ...

My 450 Rigby rifle currently under construction. With the Swaro Z8i it will weigh over 11 pounds. Will it be the finest Dangerous Game rifle in Africa? Can it cure all the faults of the 460 Weatherby and MKV rifle combination as @grand veneur stated in his post? I believe it will. Stay tuned for future hunt reports.

 

[Cohle]

Speaking of Boddington………one of the surveys he did in “Safari Rifles” turned up a PH that used a .460 Weatherby ONLY, for everything. Whether it was a Mark V or one of the Weatherby’s made with a Mauser action wasn’t mentioned. Not sure if the Mark V was exclusive when the .460 debuted, either.
One other tale from that book involved a client who went against his PH’s advise and fatally blasted an elephant with incredible ivory at 200 yards with his .460 Weatherby, figuring it was no different that sticking him with a .458 Winchester at 20 yards.
Not taking sides here, just serving up a couple of oddities.