CRF vs Push feed

[Ontario Hunter]

I cannot agree with this if you cannot sort it out with 4 5 or 6 rounds with a PH backing you up your time is up.....or you should not be hunting DG.....

I agree. But if you watch the videos on YouTube you'll see a lot of dudes who can't finish a buffalo in six, seven, or even nine shots. One fella on here reported a client wasting more than half a box before the bull was in the salt. Sheesh! But there it is. I may want to sell this gun someday to one of those idiots. I'd sleep a lot better knowing snap over gives him a bit more chance of staying alive. As I said before, only twice in my life have I emptied four rounds into an animal: my first bull elk and last bull moose. Both were hit well in the neck with the first 180 gr 30-06 bullets (it was the best target available) but neither would stay down. Coincidentally, both also absorbed Texas heart shots (in the poop chute). And, now that I think about it, both ended with brain shots on the fly, with the moose coming for me. And both involved one round that missed. Never occurred to me till just now that both had those similarities.

 

[Randy Bo]

I never had this occur with the only CRF (Win 70 375HH) that I’ve owned.
Mr. Spomer states that it has only happened to him once.

 

[lockingblock]

Push feed often uses spring loaded ejectors. That’s fine for small to medium calibers. When you get to 300 win mag, they start to struggle when ejecting live rounds as you would with a misfire.

To me, that’s a big deal.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

I agree. But if you watch the videos on YouTube you'll see a lot of dudes who can't finish a buffalo in six, seven, or even nine shots. One fella on here reported a client wasting more than half a box before the bull was in the salt. Sheesh! But there it is. I may want to sell this gun someday to one of those idiots. I'd sleep a lot better knowing snap over gives him a bit more chance of staying alive. As I said before, only twice in my life have I emptied four rounds into an animal: my first bull elk and last bull moose. Both were hit well in the neck with the first 180 gr 30-06 bullets (it was the best target available) but neither would stay down. Coincidentally, both also absorbed Texas heart shots (in the poop chute). And, now that I think about it, both ended with brain shots on the fly, with the moose coming for me. And both involved one round that missed. Never occurred to me till just now that both had those similarities.

Correction: the elk only "absorbed" three rounds. Four rounds fired. The moose absorbed five rounds and one round missed.

 

[CoElkHunter]

Correction: the elk only "absorbed" three rounds. Four rounds fired. The moose absorbed five rounds and one round missed.

Yeah, well my hunting buddy shot a small 4x5 bull elk at 25 yds. THREE times all body shots with his '06 using 165gr. Sierra BT and it just stood there for a minute before toppling over. He also shot a cow moose at 25 yds. FOUR times with the same load and it just stood there until falling over. Strange things happen.

 

[CoElkHunter]

Push feed often uses spring loaded ejectors. That’s fine for small to medium calibers. When you get to 300 win mag, they start to struggle when ejecting live rounds as you would with a misfire.

To me, that’s a big deal.

I've NEVER had a misfeed or ejection problem with my factory Remington 700 in .300WM or my Browning A Bolt in .338WM. Guess I've been lucky for 17 years with the .300 and 28 years with the .338. Maybe the newer ones suck?

 

[Ontario Hunter]

I never had this occur with the only CRF (Win 70 375HH) that I’ve owned.
Mr. Spomer states that it has only happened to him once.

My guess he had the bullet seated to deeply in its case the one time he had a jam. If the CRF magazine is too long for the bullet, I can see how short stroke jamming an empty case with the next loaded cartridge in magazine might occur. If the bullets are correct length and the mag box is made to match that length, it should be impossible for a cartridge in the magazine to be picked up  before the empty case is ejected. It all requires precision: magazine dimension, ejector length, and cartridge length. The factory can engineer the first two to work with a specific cartridge overall length. A sloppy reloader can easily screw up the third factor seating bullets too deeply and make his properly engineered controlled feed DGR a candidate for double round jam.

 

[CoElkHunter]

I never had this occur with the only CRF (Win 70 375HH) that I’ve owned.
Mr. Spomer states that it has only happened to him once.

Ask @Longwalker about his problems with his NEW 2020-2021(?) Winchester M70 .375. He actually had a thread on here about his nightmare. He probably just got a lemon but who knows?

 

[fourfive8]

Who knows about the FN Winchester M70s? I had one in 30-06 and sold it. Of course it was one of the much praised CNC new Win 70 production guns. But truth be told, IMO, that process isn't all it's cracked up to be either. Nothing special about the rifle. It didn't seem to have a propensity to jam but the mechanics of the action weren't as refined as the one's done in late New Haven models. Still have to have real people monitoring and tweaking the CNC line I guess?

As to CRF jamming? They will jam. Just mess around short cycling them on purpose and presto! Not hard to do at all. But throw a round in the port of a CRF not designed to pop over the rim close the bolt hard while under pressure, and depending upon the design of the cartridge, you can really stick a cartridge in the chamber creating yet another type of jam. I think the biggest things about the PF bolt guns are the lack of a large-sized, more positive extraction claw and the lack of cam leverage for extraction in case a fired round gets stuck in the chamber in an over-pressure event. But even a PF can jam during regular cycling if you work at it.

Currently all my mid to larger caliber hunting rifles are CRF. I have forced (broken) myself, over the years, to quit the bench rest/target shooting habit of single round feed on top of the follower as is common with target/push feed guns. I only feed into the magazine no matter whether shooting targets or hunting, one shot or filling the magazine, makes no difference. It is now a habit.

 

[Randy Bo]

My guess he had the bullet seated to deeply in its case the one time he had a jam. If the CRF magazine is too long for the bullet, I can see how short stroke jamming an empty case with the next loaded cartridge in magazine might occur. If the bullets are correct length and the mag box is made to match that length, it should be impossible for a cartridge in the magazine to be picked up  before the empty case is ejected. It all requires precision: magazine dimension, ejector length, and cartridge length. The factory can engineer the first two to work with a specific cartridge overall length. A sloppy reloader can easily screw up the third factor seating bullets too deeply and make his properly engineered controlled feed DGR a candidate for double round jam.

@Ontario Hunter
As someone who does not reload (yet) would you suspect that as long as I stick with quality factory ammo……That this type of double-feed would be impossible?

 

[lockingblock]

I've NEVER had a misfeed or ejection problem with my factory Remington 700 in .300WM or my Browning A Bolt in .338WM. Guess I've been lucky for 17 years with the .300 and 28 years with the .338. Maybe the newer ones suck?

try ejecting a live round while cycling the action full speed. Usually, it can’t clear the ejection port before the bolt retracts into the rear bridge. This causes the round to fall into the action.

 

[marksman]

l am an absolute fan of the Mauser 98 and have customized a few that l use for hunting
l also own and use both push feed and crf rifles to hunt with
one thing l really do like about the crf action that l don't think has been mentioned is that you can tweek the feed lips and extractor to pick up and hold your painstakingly made perfectly straight reloads as the round is fed into the chamber to perfectly align with the chamber so the projectile is not touched till it gets into the lands, unlike the push feed where the case jumps up and is pushed into the chamber,
not a big deal to some but it makes me feel confident that the round is as l made it
l especially like it on smaller cases like the 22 and 6mm dasher
works for me anyhoo

 

[CoElkHunter]

try ejecting a live round while cycling the action full speed. Usually, it can’t clear the ejection port before the bolt retracts into the rear bridge. This causes the round to fall into the action.

I don't want to try that. LOL

 

[Ontario Hunter]

@Ontario Hunter
As someone who does not reload (yet) would you suspect that as long as I stick with quality factory ammo……That this type of double-feed would be impossible?

Factory ammo will be standard overall length. When setting up your loading dies make sure you follow the factory directions that come in the box. Purchase a caliper and adjust seating so overall length is to factory specs. Overall length specs are available from multiple internet sites (including Wikipedia for most cartridges). If loading thumper DGR ammo, make sure the bullets are crimped. Otherwise recoil may push the bullets in magazine cartridges back into cases and make OAL too short = potential for short stroke jamming.

 

[dougfinn]

I own both. Presently have more crf than pf, but not because of the action. I had a Browning x bolt that I used to see if it would have any trouble feeding a round when the rifle was on its side as well as up side down. No problems what so ever. Fed just as smoothly any way you held the rifle. Have not tried this on any other pf’s so can’t say for sure that all will work as well as the X bolt.

 

[roklok]

The problem Ron Spomer is demonstrating is exactly why in many cases a CRF rifle is MORE likely to cause problems when short stroking than a PF. This is also what I believe happened to the hunter in the video on the thread "why I don't like double rifles" when the hunter clearly had a problem with a CRF bolt action. Unless the OAL of cartridge completely fills mag box, the cartridges will most likely be forward in the mag box from the recoil of previous round fired, and the bolt will be behind a new cartridge prior to ejecting spent case. On most push feeds, the case is ejected as soon as the mouth clears the front receiver ring, well before the bolt can pick up another round from magazine. As I stated previously the VAST majority of issues and "jams" occur from user error in the heat of battle, and not from the rifle itself. Test your individual rifle for reliability, and practice, practice, practice to run it properly. I personally think the whole argument of PF vs CRF is silliness, and when I see someone expounding the virtues of CRF and talking about the dangers of using PF for dangerous game, I tend to take them less seriously. I have both and use both, I have hunted extensively over the last 35 years with Remington 700s, taking numerous bears (including close range grizzly and Kodiak brown) with my 700s in .35 Whelen and .375 H&H. I am taking my 98 Mauser in .375 to Namibia for buffalo this year mainly for the aesthetics and tradition, a blued and walnut Mauser actioned rifle seems more "proper" for an African hunt, but would have no qualms taking my stainless kevlar stocked 700 .375. In fact truth be told, I would probably be better off with the 700 due to my extensive familiarity, but have been putting in a lot of time on the Mauser and will continue to do so. My long action (haven't tested short action) 700s feed perfectly sideways, upside down, every which way. Research Warren Page's rifle, he had a 721 Remington chambered in .375 Weatherby, used it for years to hunt all manner of dangerous game with no issues. Hunters, especially those who have the desire and means to hunt Africa tend to be traditionalists and more appreciative of "old world" quality and craftsmanship, and there is no denying that a finely built Mauser or Pre-64 has a certain allure that modern mass produced rifles built to a cost point do not. However, to dismiss all PFs as being unsuitable for DG is ridiculous and in my opinion shows ignorance.

 

[CoElkHunter]

I've read a lot here lately where there seems to be a pronounced preoccupation by some with the ability/inability of a given rifle action to chamber a cartridge from the magazine when the rifle is upside down. When has ANYONE EVER had to this in an actual hunting situation? If so, I guess I'm hunting differently because I like to hunt on my feet and not laying on my back? LOL. I don't get it?

 

[John Wasmuth]

I've read a lot here lately where there seems to be a pronounced preoccupation by some with the ability/inability of a given rifle action to chamber a cartridge from the magazine when the rifle is upside down. When has ANYONE EVER had to this in an actual hunting situation? If so, I guess I'm hunting differently because I like to hunt on my feet and not laying on my back? LOL. I don't get it?

Wait,,, ya mean people don’t actually do that? Boy do I feel foolish…..

 

[mauserhunter]

The real trick is if your rifle will feed a empty case from the magazine, I know all my crf will not sure on my pf tho.

 

[roklok]

Wait,,, ya mean people don’t actually do that? Boy do I feel foolish…..

I've read a lot here lately where there seems to be a pronounced preoccupation by some with the ability/inability of a given rifle action to chamber a cartridge from the magazine when the rifle is upside down. When has ANYONE EVER had to this in an actual hunting situation? If so, I guess I'm hunting differently because I like to hunt on my feet and not laying on my back? LOL. I don't get it?

I think it started as a test just to prove reliability, in other words folks figure if their rifle will feed upside down it is timed and built properly. CRF actions are touted as being able to feed in any position, from my experience PF actions will as well. Kind of like testing a flintlock muzzleloader by firing it upside down, determining if the lock is fast enough to ignite priming before it falls away from vent hole.