CBL Banned??

[375Fox]

Very informative thank you. Can those animals be used to rerelease in the wild to replenish lion stock? Or perhaps a question before that one is should they replenish lion stocks since unfortunately they are counter productive to man inhabiting the area?

This has been brought up by the pro-CBL group a lot. It would be similar to reintroducing wolves into the Rockies now. Lot of potential conflicts. Also prey species have been completely poached out many areas. Lions breed very fast given the right conditions. The problem is really poisoning due to conflicts with cattle. No farm raised captive bred lions have ever been used to repopulate an area. I don’t think any serious project would even consider using them. Most areas that can hold lions now already do. You can look up “24 lions project” they took 24 wild managed lions from high fence reserves in South Africa to repopulate an hunting area in Mozambique. They have over 100 now.

 

[Red Leg]

This has been brought up by the pro-CBL group a lot. It would be similar to reintroducing wolves into the Rockies now. Lot of potential conflicts. Also prey species have been completely poached out many areas. Lions breed very fast given the right conditions. The problem is really poisoning due to conflicts with cattle. No farm raised captive bred lions have ever been used to repopulate an area. I don’t think any serious project would even consider using them. Most areas that can hold lions now already do. You can look up “24 lions project” they took 24 wild managed lions from high fence reserves in South Africa to repopulate an hunting area in Mozambique. They have over 100 now.

I don't believe most people in the US, Europe, or perhaps even this site realize just how destitute of game the vast majority of the continent is. For instance one can drive for hours from Beira or Lusaka and never see any sign of wildlife until entering a concession. Lions leaving a concession due to overpopulation almost immediately become cattle and goat killers. They have no choice.

 

[BRICKBURN]

I’m surprised no one has posted any updates on SA trying to ban or stop the hunts

If you want to see the latest developments on the subject head to the interested parties website:
https://www.sapredators.co.za/news-1


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[Rare Breed]

Isn’t that most Texas hunting? You may not see the deer or insert species exact size you want but even the 50k acre low fence places have dozen of deer in feeders and fields because of no pressure and great food supply. On a strictly slam dunk basis is that not the same?

No question about it. I lived in TX for 12 years. Your deer is whatever price you were willing to pay. Also let me assure you even expensive wild lion hunts to the multiple phs I have talked to have an almost slam dunk kill rate given they are all pre baited before the hunt begins why I think there can be such hypocrisy in CBL versus wild lion hunting. Most people who are outraged at CBL hunting though not all have never taken any type lion

 

[Huntforever]

If you want to see the latest developments on the subject head to the interested parties website:
https://www.sapredators.co.za/news-1


.

I love how the article is short and provides no evidence or backing on their claim.

 

[dchum]

No question about it. I lived in TX for 12 years. Your deer is whatever price you were willing to pay. Also let me assure you even expensive wild lion hunts to the multiple phs I have talked to have an almost slam dunk kill rate given they are all pre baited before the hunt begins why I think there can be such hypocrisy in CBL versus wild lion hunting. Most people who are outraged at CBL hunting though not all have never taken any type lion

One of the lion hunts promotes wild habitat protection and for other wild lions and wildlife.

The other does not.

This whole comparing hunting practices is not the point. The point is CBL does not protect habitat and is just a way for hunters to kill a dream animal and for some South African guy to make money.

And not having killed a lion does not limit one’s understating of what is what. That is a false way to discredit the argument.

 

[Killingtime]

I don't believe most people in the US, Europe, or perhaps even this site realize just how destitute of game the vast majority of the continent is. For instance one can drive for hours from Beira or Lusaka and never see any sign of wildlife until entering a concession. Lions leaving a concession due to overpopulation almost immediately become cattle and goat killers. They have no choice.

Is the lack of animals from the population boom and or landscape? I’m curious if the Africa as a whole can ever have the turnaround America did with deer. I know they resurrected South Africa the rhino is a great example. But are the game populations in Namibia as good or close to SA or are they worse I’m interested since I believe they have one of the lowest populations in the world. In your opinion and also anyone else who reads this that has been to multiple places opinion on there experience with game populations and if it’s human population, sparse habitat or just terrible conservation practices that make the rest of Africa different from SA

 

[mark-hunter]

No farm raised captive bred lions have ever been used to repopulate an area. I don’t think any serious project would even consider using them

I think we have discussed this.
I have no wish, or desire to hunt CBL.
Even in a case it will cost me not reaching big 5 goal, in case i get to first 4 of them,

But CBL zero conservation and repopulation value is man made, and semi-legal and not natural.
This is just because somebody said, this will not be done.

The reason is: the release of captive-bred lions into the wild is not supported by current conservation policy and is considered practically impossible.

That stands for South Africa
And second reason is lack of political will to reintroduce CBL to other countries, and import them from South Africa.

So, to brand them as "zero conservation value" is not just for them, because it doesn't mean they do not have such potential.

2nd part of my reasoning is this: I really do not have anything against blue collar guy collecting big 5, if that is his goal.
But pricing of wild lion hunting is very prohibitive with tendency to be even more prohibitive in the future.
This means, majority of hunters will not be able to afford lion, ever.
CBL is the only option for them.

Once CBL hunting is banned, big 5 dream becomes history.
The trend is that continent wide, wild population of wild lion is shrinking.
No sign it will improve, because habitat is lost, poaching, cattle, poisoning, encroachment, etc for all the reasons we know.
.
So the future for wild lion is going nowhere. Going down.

Therefore, my stand is CBL program should be kept alive, and eventually somebody somewhere will get to the idea of lion reintroduction when lions disappear in some country, at least in national parks, but till that moment, it has to be financed some how.
And in general, those are hunters dollars.

Two birds with one stone.

 

[375Fox]

Therefore, my stand is CBL program should be kept alive, and eventually somebody somewhere will get to the idea of lion reintroduction when lions disappear in some country, at least in national parks, but till that moment, it has to be financed some how.
And in general, those are hunters dollars.

Two birds with one stone.

There’s not a shortage of lions. There’s a shortage of suitable habitat without encroachment and cattle. Reserves in Zimbabwe currently do culls. Fenced reserves in South Africa use contraceptive measures. A number of problem lions are killed in Namibia on private land adjacent parks. To establish a lion population on 2 million acres in Mozambique they only used 24 lions. There’s no value in 10,000 commercially raised lions especially those bred for certain unnatural characteristics such as extremely large mains and white lions. There’s no room for them and there are wild lions available. Also many lions in zoos worldwide.

There are more lions in Africa currently than wolves in Europe. Where is the push by hunters to commercially raise wolves for reintroductions? There’s much more suitable land with established prey bases like red deer, roe deer, and boars. Same could be said for entire eastern United States.

 

[Garciamarquez1918]

There seems to be an undercurrent here that taking the Big 5 is somehow a birthright that needs to be facilitated, ethics be damned.

But of course it isn't. There are all kinds of things that many of us would like to own or do but that are beyond our means. Such is life.

I also strongly suspect that there are very few people on here who couldn't afford a wild lion hunt if they really set their minds to it and were willing to make sacrifices to achieve that goal. I suspect in many cases it's not a question of can't afford it -- it's a question of can't afford it while making no other sacrifices. If you "can't afford it" but you have a bass boat and an awesome lifted truck well, guess what, you could afford it but you've made different choices.

It's also worth remembering why the Big 5 are called the Big 5. It's not because they're "big" -- an eland is bigger than a leopard. It's because they're potentially dangerous.

I don't think there are any truly dangerous rhino hunts out there these days. So already 20% of your Big 5 isn't so big. Then you go on a canned lion hunt on a small property with an animal that's habituated to humans. So 40% of your Big 5 isn't so big.

It's a bit like shooting par one time at a goat ranch golf course and telling people you're a scratch golfer. Superficially it's true, but scratch the surface and it's a lie.

 

[Rare Breed]

Spoken by a man who has hunted neither one nor charged by both as I have. Let me assure you both are still potentially very dangerous and can kill you just as fast

 

[Garciamarquez1918]

Spoken by a man who has hunted neither one nor charged by both as I have. Let me assure you both are still potentially very dangerous and can kill you just as fast

Respectfully even you in your hunt report on your lion implicitly critique certain CBL hunts by saying your hunt was not on 1,000 acres for a lion put out one week before. So surely we'd agree there's an ethical line somewhere?

 

[Huvius]

Why don't we just stop calling them "hunts"
Separate them from wild hunting and let them remain as what is really a livestock/agricultural exercise.
As mentioned here, there are wingshooters who have never drawn a bead on a wild pheasant or shot a deer from anywhere but a blind. Bison "hunts" are largely a drive out and pick your animal to shoot operations.
Are these examples really hunting or simply "shooting" a game animal?
It's the world we live in today. If it ain't your cup of tea, then don't do it.
The anti-hunting contingent knows that none of us really NEED to hunt. It's a privilege, not a right and ultimately part of a broader industry whether you like to think of it as such or not.
If CBL shooting is successfully banned, what do you think will be next?

 

[Wishfulthinker580]

Why don't we just stop calling them "hunts"
Separate them from wild hunting and let them remain as what is really a livestock/agricultural exercise.
As mentioned here, there are wingshooters who have never drawn a bead on a wild pheasant or shot a deer from anywhere but a blind. Bison "hunts" are largely a drive out and pick your animal to shoot operations.
Are these examples really hunting or simply "shooting" a game animal?
It's the world we live in today. If it ain't your cup of tea, then don't do it.
The anti-hunting contingent knows that none of us really NEED to hunt. It's a privilege, not a right and ultimately part of a broader industry whether you like to think of it as such or not.
If CBL shooting is successfully banned, what do you think will be next?

Regardless of whether hunters view it as hunting or not the antis will always conflate the two and use it as a tool against hunting in general…

 

[Rare Breed]

Respectfully even you in your hunt report on your lion implicitly critique certain CBL hunts by saying your hunt was not on 1,000 acres for a lion put out one week before. So surely we'd agree there's an ethical line somewhere?

Completely agree with you on your point!!! There are certainly many different type of CBL hunts some despicable to me as it would be for you. That is why instead of painting all CBL hunts as the same I am just calling out that is unfair. I must have called six different outfitters until I found the one that put out the animal at least 3 weeks out so that it would feed on its own...just to me that was very important to your point that was my ethical line. The interesting thing I found on my rhino dart hunt is it was actually much more dangerous than if I had carried a real gun...the sleep dart obviously does not put him down immediately resulting in him looking for who or what just hit him.

 

[Killingtime]

Why don't we just stop calling them "hunts"
Separate them from wild hunting and let them remain as what is really a livestock/agricultural exercise.
As mentioned here, there are wingshooters who have never drawn a bead on a wild pheasant or shot a deer from anywhere but a blind. Bison "hunts" are largely a drive out and pick your animal to shoot operations.
Are these examples really hunting or simply "shooting" a game animal?
It's the world we live in today. If it ain't your cup of tea, then don't do it.
The anti-hunting contingent knows that none of us really NEED to hunt. It's a privilege, not a right and ultimately part of a broader industry whether you like to think of it as such or not.
If CBL shooting is successfully banned, what do you think will be next?

My only comment on this response is the privilege vs right. No one one earth can rightfully tell a man that they cannot hunt. They may make laws but it doesn’t make them good laws or rightful laws. Hunting is was and will always be part of nature.
If they universally banned hunting by saying it was a privilege and not a right the only thing that would change for me is id save money on licenses

 

[wildwilderness]

Hunting is about conservation for me. Killing CBL lions does nothing for conservation.

The price argument is sad.

I guess you don’t really understand genetic diversity and importance of sheer numbers to preserve a species. You don’t fully grasp conservation


Do you think killing every captive lion, in every zoo and only having completely wild and free lions is good for conservation? That’s how species go extinct.

Having a big reservoir of potential lions to repopulate etc is good for conservation! And killing some of those lions to pay for breeding and maintenance is part of that conservation.


Now I’m not arguing it should be done instead of habitat conservation, anti poaching, and other more traditional conservation efforts, but is part of the greater picture (that many refuse to see based on bias and personal non-scientific beliefs)

Maybe some of the groups who oppose it have monetary interest as well- driving prices up for “wild lion” hunts. Money goes both ways….

 

[Shakka]

Its too bad that these Lions cannot be used to repopulate other areas, but as someone here said earlier, areas with a sufficient prey base probably already have Lions present

I don't think that most people realize how much a pride of 10 Lions eat, and how much land they need

 

[375Fox]

I guess you don’t really understand genetic diversity and importance of sheer numbers to preserve a species. You don’t fully grasp conservation


Do you think killing every captive lion, in every zoo and only having completely wild and free lions is good for conservation? That’s how species go extinct.

Having a big reservoir of potential lions to repopulate etc is good for conservation! And killing some of those lions to pay for breeding and maintenance is part of that conservation.


Now I’m not arguing it should be done instead of habitat conservation, anti poaching, and other more traditional conservation efforts, but is part of the greater picture (that many refuse to see based on bias and personal non-scientific beliefs)

Maybe some of the groups who oppose it have monetary interest as well- driving prices up for “wild lion” hunts. Money goes both ways….

I don’t think you understand CBL. Lions in zoos are not CBL lions as discussed here. Breeding lions like a puppy mill isn’t good for conservation. Neither is breeding for unnatural characteristics. You are not killing some of those lions to pay for the others. Every one of those lions will be harvested as a farm animal not different than a sheep or a cow. It’s commercial farming not conservation.

 

[Killingtime]

The problem with most predator reintroductions seems to be that they don’t let you hunt them after the introduce them. In the states I think of wolves griz and mountain lions as an example.