Can we please stop talking about "flat shooting" cartridges

[Inline6]

The amount of energy transferred to an animal doesn't kill it. The amount of energy used to cause mortal wounds, of the sort that destroy the heart or CNS, or the sort that cause them to bleed out, is what's important. I agree with you on the monos, and I'm not a fan for a number of reasons.

A 40 gr Varmageddon fired at 4000 fps from a 22-250 will absolutely dump all of its energy in a deer. But unless you shoot it in the head, you're probably just going to create a nasty wound that gets infected and kills the deer a week or 3 from now. Even at 100 yards, it still has what is considered sufficient energy (a little north of 1000 ft lbs) to kill a deer. What it clearly lacks is the capacity to penetrate to the vitals.

Yes, fragmenting bullets "dump all their energy," but I'm not sure how that's a positive. The fragmenting largely occurs at the point of impact. Because the pieces have less mass than an intact bullet, each of them lacks the momentum to penetrate deeply. The deeper the penetration, the more likely it is that more vital tissue will be destroyed. This is one case where the whole is greater than the sum of its parts.

Instead of a single, large wound channel, you end up with a bunch of smaller, shallower wound channels that ultimately only damage flesh, not vitals. If there is wasted energy, it is all of those small fragments which fail to reach the vitals. They do not penetrate as deeply precisely because they lack the energy to overcome the resistance of the flesh.

I'm not saying cup-and-cores do not work. They clearly do. But there are better choices today, just as cup-and-cores were a better choice a century ago.

I'm not sure why you keep stating stats that are not relevant. I do not recall ever saying use a varmint bullet for larger game. Or a lighter for caliber bullet or a little bullet for bigger game.

That said I have read many reports of zebra being killed with a 22 hornet, black bear killer with a 22mag. Also know of animals as large as horses to fall to a 204 ruger. I'm not condoning this just starting reports I have read and thing I have seen.

I'm not sure if you read the report that Hogpatrol post. It does a much better job of explaining things I have witnessed. Having cleaned many animals, the blood pressure spikes that he talks about makes sense. Having seen the blood vessels in the skin it makes perfect sense. I never gave it much thought as to why it worked I just seen the results and never seen a reason to change.

I guees at the end of the day all I'm asking, if you are going to disprove what I'm saying, disprove it in an apples to apples comparison. Not in a way that favors one side more than the other . I have started real world experiences and results with different bullets construction out of the same gun.

 

[shootist~]

It really just boils down to using the right bullet for the game intended. (Along with good shot placement.)

IMHO, a bullet that dumps all or most of it's energy inside an animal (with enough penetration to do the job, of course!) - is more likely to produce a DRT.

For hunting numerous sizes of animals with one rifle and one load - an African Plains Game Hunt for example - it's desirable to select a bonded or mono-metal bullet designed for the largest and toughest game you are hunting.

My 180 grain A-Frames (30-06) were about perfect for a shoulder shot on a Kudu, but zipped right through an Impala on a double lung shot. The Impala ran about 150 Yards compared to about 20 or 30 for the Kudu.

I would have been happier with a small cannon for the front-on chest shot on a BWB - but the 180 A-F worked OK.

There is no "perfect" bullet for all situations.

 

[Bonk]

Sorry Bonk but I don’t see this working. The theory and math might work but the data won’t work.

bullets have a muzzle velocity that slows as it goes. I guess you could work out the average speed for a given range.

secondly the difference of 250fps won’t make the trajectory flat.

no bullet path is flat, that’s the purpose of the thread but to be considered a flat shooting cartridge it might need to be a whole lot faster than 2250fps

Yeah, I know. I was using a hypothetical example with made up average numbers to explain why I believe that wind deflection between similar calibers does't mean a damn thing unless we're talking about extreme shooting distances.

 

[shootist~]

If you are into such things, having a decent ballistic software app on your smartphone is well worth it. Mine was $10 and it's transferred to my last several phones at no charge.

Took me a few seconds to run my 30-06 180 A-F load to see the wind drift in both Inches and MOA, at distances close and far. MV = 2,757, G1 BC .400.

For a 90* wind at 20 MPH, drift at 400 yds is 26". At 300 it's 14".

Go down to 10 MPH and it's half the above. Still significant.

 

[Mike Van Horn]

9 pages later, l think the flat shooting cartridge conversation is still going strong

 

[Bonk]

If you are into such things, having a decent ballistic software app on your smartphone is well worth it. Mine was $10 and it's transferred to my last several phones at no charge.

Took me a few seconds to run my 30-06 180 A-F load to see the wind drift in both Inches and MOA, at distances close and far. MV = 2,757, G1 BC .400.

For a 90* wind at 20 MPH, drift at 400 yds is 26". At 300 it's 14".

Go down to 10 MPH and it's half the above. Still significant.

Just for clarity's sake. I'm not saying wind drift isn't significant. Even at 100yds a steady crosswind will cause noticeable wind deflection. Take that calculator and use a similar 180gr 30 caliber bullet traveling at a slower speed. I'll bet the wind drift difference between the two isn't much all else being equal.

 

[shootist~]

No arguments there. Per the JBM Ballistics online calculator, that same 180 gr bullet running 250 fps slower (2,507 fps instead of 2,757) drifts about 1.5" more at 300 Yds and 2.7" more at 400. 20 mph full value wind.

https://www.jbmballistics.com/cgi-bin/jbmtraj-5.1.cgi

JBM is a good resource if you want to play what-if on various bullets, speeds, ballistic coefficients, altitude, etc.

 

[Forrest Halley]

I heard that the .25's are pretty flat shooting... Any through to that? Also heard there's a big difference between .257 and .244...what gives?

 

[Hogpatrol]

hot .264. it can do the job beyond! it's up to you. not words, but actions... 2200fps and 1650 ft-lbs at 1,000 yds. Trajectory Results - Flat-shooting Interesting Rifle Certainly not for everyone, but it blows anything 308 or 06 cartridge away! (and i love the 06!) The rest is just talking stories...
RANGE (YDS)
TOTAL COME UP (IN)
TOTAL WINDDRIFT (IN)
WIND DRIFT (IN)
VELOCITY (FPS)
ENERGY (FT-LB)
GYRO
0
+1.51
0
0
3500
4243
1.86
100
-2.4899999999999998
0.29
0.32
3354
3897
1.97
200
-3.3699999999999997
1.2
1.32
3212
3573
2.07
300
-0.88
2.77
3.05
3072
3269
2.18
400
+5.29
5.03
5.54
2935
2984
2.3
500
+15.47
8.05
8.87
2801
2718
2.43
600
+30.08
11.86
13.09
2670
2469
2.57
700
+49.58
16.53
18.27
2542
2237
2.71
800
+74.44
22.13
24.49
2416
2021
2.87
900
+105.25
28.73
31.84
2293
1820
3.05
1000
+142.7
36.42
40.42
2173
1635
3.24

What cartridge is this. I shot the 26 Nosler and it wasn't close to these numbers and it's a hot one.

 

[double rifle newbie]

"I do agree though, till you cross the 300 yard line there is little difference in trajectory!"

And what percentage of big game is actually shot beyond 300 yards?
Shot and killed, not just shot

 

[double rifle newbie]

although hunting in my home state doesnt warrant shots over 300 yards on anything, its a regularity when hunting caribou in alaska. my longest animal dropped was a caribou at 470 yards on the rangefinder with my 338 win mag sighted in at 300 yards. i also want to hunt ibex in europe and those can be long shots, well beyond 300. food for thought.

 

[C.W. Richter]

I believe that's 6.5-300 Wby handload data. My WSM is faster than the factory Nos ammo and the RSAUM is about the same, but with handloading those bigger cases can acheive much greater Vs. That case uses <95 gr of powder, whereas the Nos 75ish and most others are in the <65 gr range and still achieve 3,300 fps with hot handloads. I just found this load for the 26 (it can be on-par w/ the wby with handloading!) The Wby typ have a 26 bbl but this Nos had a 28 (which imo is too much for hunting. Even 26 is too long if walking on cliffs with overhangs, and they often have brakes.) You can see that the Wby is the end of the line capacity-wise, as it's just as fast with 10 gr more powder and 2" less bbl. No matter which one you like, all are capable of cleanly taking game between 850-1,000 yd depending upon the specific case/rifle combo, if need be. I'm not advocating this from one's black plastic purchased at Wallyworld!!! lol Proper equipment, handloading, practice, and only if need-be (i.e. You paid $60,000, it's the last day, and you have what it takes to get the job done!) Practice on varmints and then Aoudad down in TX! The wild ones will not often present a shot <400 yds. I'm not talking feeders here. I see in all big 6.5 cases, the Vs come down to 3250ish using the 150ish gr bullets and down to 3,000-3,100 using 160 grainers (in nearly all cases), so those 150s (.300ish SD) appear ideal for the biggest of the lot (Wby, Nos...) They don't lose much V at distance, easy to shoot/super accurate, thus the advantage of this great ballistic. Enjoy!

142​

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Retumbo​

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81.0​

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3,510​

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3,886​

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59,861 psi​

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28.0​

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3.454​

What cartridge is this. I shot the 26 Nosler and it wasn't close to these numbers and it's a hot one.

 

[C.W. Richter]

although hunting in my home state doesnt warrant shots over 300 yards on anything, its a regularity when hunting caribou in alaska. my longest animal dropped was a caribou at 470 yards on the rangefinder with my 338 win mag sighted in at 300 yards. i also want to hunt ibex in europe and those can be long shots, well beyond 300. food for thought.

Son & friends just drove back from the Arctic Circle (got 2 caribou w/ bows.) 1 decent bull, (50 yds), 1 smallish bull (7 yds), but the big boys were always running out >400 yds. 'Can't wait to go back with him, using rifles! I'd probably bring my .338 A-Sq (or 300 WM) for them, although the lightweight, hot, more weatherproof 264 would do the job. 'Have to mull it over. Likely airboat ride miles in for that! Good stuff. My mouth was watering seeing them chow down over a fire. They did witness a huge bear chasing the caribou not far from camp...

 

[C.W. Richter]

Re: the hot 6.5s. I think, it boils down to this: When you have a cartridge/gun that shoots the very same std weight bullet as the 30-06 at 650+ fps faster, with a much better BC/SD, and typically more accurately, while that 06 runs out of steam at 500, the 264 nearly doubles that effective distance (if and when need be,) certainly hits harder at all distances, and sometimes in an ultra-lightweight package! For deep-woods deer/blk bear (even moose in same) hunting, I'll grab my 18.5" 30-06 pump using the 200 NPTs every time!

 

[Rocked and Loaded]

9 pages later, l think the flat shooting cartridge conversation is still going strong

It has longer legs than the drunk elephant-gun thread. Might even go the distance and beat the dark continent thread.

 

[Forrest Halley]

It has longer legs than the drunk elephant-gun thread. Might even go the distance and beat the dark continent thread.

Well we could all circle back for another round of gun safety lectures to give it a go ahead...

 

[Forrest Halley]

Re: the hot 6.5s. I think, it boils down to this: When you have a cartridge/gun that shoots the very same std weight bullet as the 30-06 at 650+ fps faster, with a much better BC/SD, and typically more accurately, while that 06 runs out of steam at 500, the 264 nearly doubles that effective distance (if and when need be,) certainly hits harder at all distances, and sometimes in an ultra-lightweight package! For deep-woods deer/blk bear (even moose in same) hunting, I'll grab my 18.5" 30-06 pump using the 200 NPTs every time!

What's the free recoil? There's always a bill to be paid. So what's the 6.5 mega death tomorrow cannon's shortcoming?

 

[Rocked and Loaded]

Well we could all circle back for another round of gun safety lectures to give it a go ahead...

I doubt we’ll need it. Nothing on a gun forum tends to be more sectarian than cartridge/ballistic discussions.

 

[Tbitty]

What cartridge is this. I shot the 26 Nosler and it wasn't close to these numbers and it's a hot one.

It's the 6.5 Nelson-Whelen Improved. Handloaded to maximum performance! He wanted to rid the earth of the manbun.

 

[Hogpatrol]

What's the free recoil? There's always a bill to be paid. So what's the 6.5 mega death tomorrow cannon's shortcoming?

They kill on one end and maim on the other, barrel life too.