Bullet suggestion for heart / lung shot on Elephant ?

[Riflecrank]

Michael458,
What did you do to get this on your last post above ?
"Last edited by a moderator: Yesterday at 1:42 AM"

That is another shocking picture of this Nosler brass solid:

Looks like a bent brass Round Nose or ogived FN
The Nosler solids I have seen lately are brass FNs with admittedly too small a meplat,
but not looking so much like an RN.

No Round Nose. No copper.
Use only brass FN solid in a rifle that will feed it, for elephant.
I am hoping for an elephant with a CEB 400-gr/.458 Safari Solid at 2500 fps MV from a .458 WIN MAG.
All else is twaddle for me after only two cape buffalo, two bison and three water buffalo ...
until that last water buffalo gets eaten.
Amen.

 

[Riflecrank]

Now comes the controversy over 400-gr versus 450-gr versus 500-gr
.458 brass FN solid for elephant.
Heh-heh-heh.

 

[Riflecrank]

Why not to use TSX on elephant:

 

[michael458]

Michael458,
What did you do to get this on your last post above ?
"Last edited by a moderator: Yesterday at 1:42 AM"

The photo was sent by a friend here on AH. He was forced to use Factory ammo last year for his buffalo hunt. This was Factory Federal Solids..... I call them Noslers, Trophy Bonded Solids..... meplat is way too small, causing instability, bullet turns just the slightest and hits bone or something turns into a banana. I just posted it like I normally would, so not sure what you might be asking?

Also, I notice I get lots of Edited By Moderators...... but I never see anything or notice anything changed or edited? Or could be I don't pay enough attention to posts after they are posted?

Now comes the controversy over 400-gr versus 450-gr versus 500-gr
.458 brass FN solid for elephant.
Heh-heh-heh.

Don't forget my little 325 #13, it is capable.......... And not only that, it has! There is a fellow here on AH, I believe he loads some sort of 458 double (not well versed on this) for either his father or other older gentleman, does not like recoil, loads the 325 #13 for and had taken elephant ++ with great success. Now I forget the entire story line, so forgive me, jest of the matter this guy uses the 325 #13 Solid on a regular basis, and has not come up "short"...... so to speak.

And do not forget my Son with the .474 caliber 350 #13 Solid and the elephant brain shot, side brain, complete penetration, exit........ elephant in the dirt..........

And of course this example that Shaun did on his trip years ago........

 

[Fordy]

Gday riflecrank
Yes we all learn & still learning this side of the ditch & I’ll get to this asap along with the solids won’t do as much damage as a tsx textbook theory that a lot go off as I once did myself but testing in the odd critter lol has shown a few things that we need to understand before a blanket statement will hold water & youve honed in on it in the following & that’s

WHAT THAT PARTICULAR BULLET DOES AT THAT PARTICULAR IMPACT VELOCITY & RESISTANCE
Yep spot on sir

Holy cow ! Fordy is showing .510-caliber Hammer hollow points that pinched off the nose hole !!!
What bullet weight and approximate impact velocity ?

And another set of .510-cal Hammer hollow points that fragmented and performed poorly !!!
What bullet weight and approximate impact velocity ?

And a .375-cal Hammer hollowpoint that blew of the petals and then expanded the remnant "penetrator" at a slant !!!
What bullet weight and approximate impact velocity ?

So bovine shoulder knuckles or humeri were involved in all of these ?

OK, Hammer's sulfurated copper is not so hard after all, I see.
Softer than brass and barely greater density.
Machines nicely though.
The petal blow-off must be more a function of hollowpoint design,
and I thought it was some brass-like similarity in fracturing.
Not so.
If Hammer got the news on those bullets, maybe some re-design was done.

GSC FN copper solids (570-gr/.510-cal) expand pretty severely on 50-gallon steel drums full of sand at 500 NE velocity, but have shot through elephants routinely.
I used it to penetrate a big bull bison from rump to exit at neck/throat, full body length, once while alive at 50 yards, and departing with a 570-gr Barnes XLC retained in the vitals from a broadside chest shot.
Both shots were at 2400 fps MV from a 500 A-Square.
I repeated the Barnes XLC and the GSC FN shots on the dead bison at 25 yards due to surprise at lack of penetration of the XLC (forerunner of the TSX) and exit of the GSC FN.
Same shot placement on the propped up dead bison.
Same results on bullet recovery of the XLC and exit of the GSC FN.

Apparently no bovine shoulder knuckles were encountered.

I will forget the idea of a Hammer Copper solid.
Nothing but CEB brass FN solids for me in velocities that might impact at 2400 fps or more.
I will have to give up the North Fork copper FP solid, too, but the copper Cup Point solid is still a choice, for buffalo, not elephant.

On this below yep I’m still a muppet & one you’ve still got some training to do on me getting the English language correct

There is a town in Kentucky called "Yosemite" but the locals pronounce it "YO-SUH-MIGHT."

Cheers

 

[Wyfox]

FYI, the "edit by moderator" is adjusting the file size on your photos.

 

[Riflecrank]

Michael458, about this:
"The photo was sent by a friend here on AH. He was forced to use Factory ammo last year for his buffalo hunt. This was Factory Federal Solids..... I call them Noslers, Trophy Bonded Solids..... meplat is way too small, causing instability, bullet turns just the slightest and hits bone or something turns into a banana. I just posted it like I normally would, so not sure what you might be asking?"

You answered all my questions just fine then, thanks.
My question was due to my bumfuzzlement, over how that Nosler 500-gr/.458 "Solid for Dangerous Game" got so warped out of shape.
That is indeed a Nosler solid and they claim it is of a lead-free alloy, so it ain't the usual free-machining brass that works so well in solid bullets.
Besides the too-small meplat, which is as you say the main culprit leading to loss of stability and bending.
Mash of nose might be partly due to alloy too.

The aid to feeding is a bad trade for poor straight-line penetration.
57% meplat diameter is obviously too small.
Here is the Nosler 500-grainer laid beside the 500-gr and 450-gr BBS bullet:

Better:

With such an exaggerated radius on the edge of the meplat of the Nosler, you know they are concentrating on feeding in the rifle for neglect of good solid bullet performance in critter.

Federal uses various solids in their premium ammo.
They had ditched the TBSS for the BBS in the last 2 boxes of their .458 WIN MAG ammo that I bought.
I went back for more after trying a box.
They advertise the 500-gr Barnes Banded Solid at 2050 fps MV.
In my .458 WIN MAG M70 Super Grade from South Carolina (SAAMI throat and 23-7/8" barrel)
it gave 2166 fps MV at 77*F.

Good stuff.
The BBS tested well in your media too, IIRC.
I have an acquaintance that stopped a tuskless elephant charge (MAD COW) with the 450-gr BBS at just under 2300 fps MV, frontal brain shot, using a .458 Lott.
Even the SAAMI .458 WIN MAG with 24" barrel can do better than 2300 fps with that bullet.

And thanks for making the 400-gr/.458 CEB Safari Solid, at my begging, and also for making it less controversial,
if even the 325/.458 CEB Safari Solid is elephant capable.

So we have learned not to hunt elephant with 500-gr/.458 Nosler solids.
Add one more to the list of bad bullets.

 

[Riflecrank]

Fordy,
Whenever you can dig up anymore info on the busted Hammer bullets would be greatly appreciated.
I once had the 450-gr/.510-cal GSC HV pinch its nose shut on a close range (5-yard) insurance shot on a dead cape buffalo.
The buffalo had been killed by same bullet leaving muzzle of 500 Mbogo rifle at 2650 fps MV, impacted at about 75 yards, went through heart and lungs and broke offside shoulder/humerus.
It mushroomed perfectly.

The insurance shot was into spine between shoulders of buffalo lying on its side after the death bellow.
Too close to be "gone to sleep" for that bullet, a little wobble or yaw on hitting the bone ?
Reported to Gerard Shultz and he re-designed the bullet.
On that kind of shot the re-designed bullet might do the same ?

What the bullet looked like before:

Not a bad bullet, maybe just a freak nose pinch ?
At 2650 fps MV it was 0.75 MOA for 3 shots at 100 yards.
At 2830 fps MV it was 1.5 MOA for 3 shots at 100 yards in 500 Mbogo Rifle The First, with 25" barrel.
There is a 500 Mbogo Rifle The Second with 23" barrel that I like a lot better.
It would be perfect for elephant with a proper Solid solid.

 

[Riflecrank]

FYI, the "edit by moderator" is adjusting the file size on your photos.

Thanks for that.

 

[michael458]

You answered all my questions just fine then, thanks.
My question was due to my bumfuzzlement, over how that Nosler 500-gr/.458 "Solid for Dangerous Game" got so warped out of shape.
That is indeed a Nosler solid and they claim it is of a lead-free alloy, so it ain't the usual free-machining brass that works so well in solid bullets.
Besides the too-small meplat, which is as you say the main culprit leading to loss of stability and bending.
Mash of nose might be partly due to alloy too.

For sure, the meplat size is not stable, and this absolutely causes the bullet to veer. There has to be something in that alloy that allows them to bend like that, this one shown, not the only specimen. Sam had one do the same thing, I have heard of others with the exact same issue. I have never even seen this behavior in copper? In all the old T'Rex tests we did here, the ultimate bullet destroyer, I never seen that.

The aid to feeding is a bad trade for poor straight-line penetration.
57% meplat diameter is obviously too small.

Concur 100%...............

Federal uses various solids in their premium ammo.
They had ditched the TBSS for the BBS in the last 2 boxes of their .458 WIN MAG ammo that I bought.
I went back for more after trying a box.
They advertise the 500-gr Barnes Banded Solid at 2050 fps MV.
In my .458 WIN MAG M70 Super Grade from South Carolina (SAAMI throat and 23-7/8" barrel)
it gave 2166 fps MV at 77*F.

OK, this shows just how ignorant I am when it comes to Factory ammo, what is available and what bullet might be loaded. I never used Factory ammo in my entire life, either tests or in the field.

If Federal is loading a version of the Barnes Flat Nose Solid, then those that are forced to use some sort of Factory load, this would be the best choice over anything else I have seen available.

Those of you using Factory, you would be far far better served to contact a Custom Loading outfit, such as Superior Ammunition, and have CEB #13 loaded in your ammo. This would be the best choice in that situation.

The BBS tested well in your media too, IIRC.

Indeed they do. I used the Barnes Flat Nose exclusively before we designed the CEB #13s...... They did just fine, penetrated straight, and stayed on course. It is also a strong nose profile as well, heavy bone does not turn them into bananas. They plow through. I measured 65% meplat here, you get 64%, very close, close enough, they are stable during terminals.

So we have learned not to hunt elephant with 500-gr/.458 Nosler solids.
Add one more to the list of bad bullets.

Yes, I believe so, and I would not use them for anything........ regardless of weight, or caliber........
This bullet was on buffalo! Sam's turned and banana'ed on buffalo as well........ no telling what they would do on elephant...........

What did I tell you guys up front, even on this thread?

All Solids are NOT Created Equal........ Flat nose included....................

 

[Fordy]

Gday riflecrank

Fordy,
Whenever you can dig up anymore info on the busted Hammer bullets would be greatly appreciated.

I got a few together of different types tonight & the top one was the catalyst for understanding a little bit more on what occurred & that was from a mate not my work but look @ it extremely closely you’ll see it tore the alloy & at that impact it should’ve popped the petals & you see this by the stretch in the alloy or basically they would look more like the raptor blades as these stretch very little due to the characteristics of the brass & mechanical system they use & the tearing process dosent give the cleaner meplat across multiple resistances & think how hammer tests bullets in milk jugs & dry news paper hmmm basically instant hydraulic

& it’s one that not only occurs in hammers as you’ve shown with the gs as it also happens with other brands as well but only a couple I’ve never seen it in but on the whole it occurs with hammers on a higher rate these days than it once did ( it’s related to weatherby ) & that comes simply down to non hydraulic pressure in the hp & one combination of what I call a dry impact & you had that exact thing as the nose didn’t completely pinch the hp off it was due to the dry impact basically plugging the hp
This non hydraulic action also lessons the killing efficiency of the pill & on average you’ll get longer runs & less critter reactions

There is a lot in this & while my words maybe incorrect it’s one that has had a fairly substantial number of critters taken in the thousands over many brands that showed the pattern

What I’m learning today is your better off with a mechanical activated pill than a hydraulic activated pill design if you want consistency
With consistency comes more reliability & that becomes better killing efficiency on the whole

I once had the 450-gr/.510-cal GSC HV pinch its nose shut on a close range (5-yard) insurance shot on a dead cape buffalo.
The buffalo had been killed by same bullet leaving muzzle of 500 Mbogo rifle at 2650 fps MV, impacted at about 75 yards, went through heart and lungs and broke offside shoulder/humerus.
It mushroomed perfectly.

The insurance shot was into spine between shoulders of buffalo lying on its side after the death bellow.
Too close to be "gone to sleep" for that bullet, a little wobble or yaw on hitting the bone ?
Reported to Gerard Shultz and he re-designed the bullet.
On that kind of shot the re-designed bullet might do the same ?

Yes it will most likely do it again even redesigning the pill but it may take 1 shot or 10 shots & why we need to test multiple as a new design on this type of pill will not guarantee it will work the only ones that can do that are the mechanical pills that don’t require the hydraulic but the harder the alloy the less chance it will have to pinch shut before the hydraulic forces start the expansion

You can see this well on Barnes as the dryer impacts don’t mushroom as well as the wetter impacts & you can have two pills sxs @ same impact & one into a skinny critter vrs a good condition one

Both hits on ribs & watch the difference in the amount of mushrooming occurs with those to pills now take a knuckle shot or parts of the head or even a dry mud encrusted hide etc & you get very little moisture on impact & that either plugs the hp or allows it to pinch over ( I call it nose over ) or best case a delayed opening

Now don’t be fooled into believing that a tip will fix it on all brands either as there are tips & there are tips & once again unless it’s a mechanical design a tip is basically a plug that will cause a greater risk of failure vrs a mechanical pills tip

A lot in this & should really be in another thread that we can delve a lot deeper as really it’s a solid world for elephant but then again it does have merit in this thread as it may help some understand the importance of consistency in hunting especially elephant imo

View attachment 700315

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View attachment 700321

What the bullet looked like before:

View attachment 700322

Not a bad bullet, maybe just a freak nose pinch ?
At 2650 fps MV it was 0.75 MOA for 3 shots at 100 yards.
At 2830 fps MV it was 1.5 MOA for 3 shots at 100 yards in 500 Mbogo Rifle The First, with 25" barrel.
There is a 500 Mbogo Rifle The Second with 23" barrel that I like a lot better.
It would be perfect for elephant with a proper Solid solid.

View attachment 700323

Nice looking rifle yes a proper solid solid hmmm that’s one that deserves its own thread also lol
Cheers

 

[Fordy]

Gday ok
Let’s have a look @ this picture

& work out what was a Fn solid & what was the Barnes the multi tool is dividing the 2 types
The impacts were deliberately kept below 2100 for a reason & ea left to right vary 100 fps difference impact these were taken tonight as riflecrank has kept me away from going through photos & recovered pills but I have them & will have recovered Barnes pills to go with my post above & this one , the caliber is in 6.5 mm

Now all of these were fatal shots but impact to tip is vastly difference

There are great textbook examples of why this has occurred but unless we study the actuals a lot will believe that a solid won’t be as good as a mushroom pill

Yes don’t underestimate the effectiveness of a good solid as it is still in today’s world a very important projectile

Cheers

 

[Riflecrank]

Fordy,
Thanks for all that.
I have now abandoned the dream of a 405-gr/.458 HHT with a tip from Hammer.
Plastic tip on the 404-gr Stone Hammer: Bad idea.

I guess the more reliable "mechanical" expansion applies to the brass CEB hollow points
due to the hexagonal hole shape with the stress risers at each angle of the hexagon,
and the narrower petals made of brass breaking off more reliably
("HEXPLODING")
to leave a flat-nose remnant penetrator.

Now I dream of a CEB ESP Raptor 400-ish-grainer plus plastic tip for .458 WIN MAG.
Forward for plains game.
Backward for elephant.
Reversible to use as an FN solid on elephant (back on topic).
Hollow point nose becoming trailing base will move CG forward and make it less likely to veer,
with a BBW#13 shape on opposite end of reversible bullet..
Gilding the lilly.
Hijack off.

 

[Fordy]

Gday riflecrank

Hijack off.

Hijack off For how long lol

Cheers

 

[Riflecrank]

Gday riflecrank


Hijack off For how long lol

Cheers

How long ?
Until next time.
Like now.
You wouldn't happen to go by another handle at the Hammer forum would you ?
Have you shared any Hammer bullet reports there ?

You have enormous data and hunting experience.
What are the helicopter shooters doing to the water buffalo in the NT,
and what have they been shooting them with for the most part ?
Sad what they are doing there.
Making way for the beef cattle ?

 

[Fordy]

Gday
Still somewhat onto the hydraulic effect & time to show why my earlier comments on the FN solid can produce a better more consistent wound channel than the Barnes tsx that @Philip Glass mentioned on his results in his rhino
Now angle definitely played a role in than but also now we need to delve a little deeper into what actually occurs in the wonderful terminal world of pills

Before I get into the Barnes mushroom monos

We better get the transition zone of a pill out the way first or I’m putting the horse before the cart somewhat

So the transition zone of the pill is where it goes from flight form to terminal form & the distance it takes on impacting the critter till it achieves its terminal form

Now pretty straight forward on a true solid ( definitely a difference between a FN& RN but we all understand that so I’ll just use a FN as only the best needs talking of ) as it’s already in its terminal form on impact & you see this in wounds as look @ this entry to the chest cavity that’s over caliber size !!!! ( more to come on that on why is simple textbook analysis)

For reference my finger nail is this size

then on what occurred in those wallaby lungs in my picture in post#92 occurred of way more damage goes to the FN that’s above the multi tool

Here’s the Barnes entry into chest cavity

& the lungs in post#92 below the multi tool go with this also

This above is as simple as I can show without getting to much into the weeds & extremely important in understanding how things go pear shape within certain designs also let’s leave the different hardness or resistance of nose profiles out as it gets somewhat easier to work on one thing @ a time we’ll in my mind anyway lol

So a flat nose as it’s in its terminal form already can’t fail as it’s already in it thats 100% reliability ( leaving out alloy flow or deformation due to bone impacts etc )

Now to the Barnes or likes that take the flight form & changes till terminal form is reached & here is the issue & why the Barnes or like will never be as reliable on elephant as a Good FN

In that transition zone there are so many things that can go wrong & while they don’t happen every time I guarantee it will eventually & let’s take the terminal form of the Barnes

Now is this the actual or what a company tells us ???????????????????????????

Yes that’s a extremely important question & one we do see the textbooks getting shown time after time where I pose the question do you want to know when all goes right or it goes pear shape

My world
( NOW THE FOLLOWING IS NOT ME KNOWING EVERYTHING AS IM STILL LEARNING & DEFINITIVELY NO GURU BUT REAL WORLD RESULTS ILL SHOW ALSO SAY IM WRONG WHEN I AM )
& why bullet companies overall don’t like me as I will show the bad or less than ideal results some even though they’ve said publicly I’m a bullet companies worst nightmare they have the looked @ those adjusted & lifted the bar off those bad results & that I’m happy as we then get pills that cover more bases & that’s my world right there as I want as many bases covered as possible


So now it’s move onto the style of those meplats Here’s one of the best examples I’ve seen put up

Pretty self explanatory & top two are what we are discussing here on wound channel on comparisons of the FN vrs the good mushrooms that Barnes produces

Honing in on the Barnes as that is textbook question I had above as Barnes will tell everyone that you’ll get a1.7 calibre or 2x calibre depending on the minimum impact velocity
So how much truth in that ?
100% in the media they test in I believe to be correct
Now reality paint a different picture as we have already discussed when you throw in the hydraulic needed to do this that doesn’t occur all the time you get varying results & velocity will somewhat help this as @Riflecrank showed & some of those hammers velocity dosent always work but on Barnes a way safer minimum impact velocity is 2100 off various calibers I’ve tested in & 2400 is way more reliable but still will never match the FN for consistency


So I’m guessing I’ll get that still dosent prove that this occurs & only my textbook conversation that I’m putting up

So I think I’ve dribbled enough & leave you lot with these actuals & brief summary & let the individual go through the above & see why we need to delve deeper not just go off the good

The killing of these Barnes pills below 2100 impact is one I’ve got no hesitation in saying a good solid will kill more efficiently & consistently that is a fact that cannot be denied but the Barnes also works well when it works as designed but elephant I think not but fatal they probably will be just depends which month lol

Cheers

 

[Fordy]

Gday riflecrank

How long ?
Until next time.
Like now.
You wouldn't happen to go by another handle at the Hammer forum would you ?
Have you shared any Hammer bullet reports there ?

Didn’t think it would take you long to re hijack lol

Maybe this will help jog your memory rather than my poor English writing skills

Yes my handle was farleg but I’m no longer there as I showed to much of the truth & sadly you’ll not see a lot of that stuff I did as I’ve been told some of that has been nuked & pretty we’ll guarantee you’ll not see this photo below on that forum re .510 cal picture

But don’t worry I pretty well hold it on my phone & with help of mates it’s very well documented now even if I loose my phone for which I could go on a rant but no need as the truth will come to those who examine or heaven forbid get the poor results that occur
I had the hammerboys out to Aussie for around 3 weeks to show testing results first hand as nothing better imo well I was wrong as
Here’s the other .510 cal that’s a big concern so buyer be warned & the words say it all & I’d been talking privately about this for months with them & when asked by others about this pill or others I ask what would you do sit on it & say all is good or speak up & show it as it is & that’s exactly what I did speak up
but nuked I’ve been told it has been

only one buff was shot with the 456sh for reference & one scrubbie oh & one wild dog , let’s say a 500 Jeffery should be a problem solver not a problem creator & it worked outstanding on one critter the dog lol

Yep you get the picture I’m sure but a pm with some more stuff so not to clutter the crap out of this thread let alone hijack it anymore lol will be sent if you would like more


Moving onto the next part of yours

You have enormous data and hunting experience.

Yep I do have a lot but also not as many critters as some of my mates & just lucky I guess to have had some great people around me & those today that are left & new ones along the way keep pushing me to the what ifs & unanswered questions I know nothing on to delve a little deeper but I never wanted to join this forum or any other for that matter but my ph in May asked me in a way I went yep I’ll do that on our experience as it was a pleasure to see this outfit in action & he & his family treated my mate & I so well that was the least I could do to tell how his operation was through my eyes & my curiosity got the better of me & searching I did on the new posts section here & then other mates forwarded me links & I was hooked lol

just look @michael458 , that guy has turned my life upside down & now I know I know very little on a few more things now , but I’ll show what I do know in hope it helps us all but my testing days will hopefully finish next year on a elephant all going well

What are the helicopter shooters doing to the water buffalo in the NT,
and what have they been shooting them with for the most part ?
Sad what they are doing there.
Making way for the beef cattle ?

Still a lot of buff in places & no hope of eradicating like some would like , we tried that on the btec campaign

A lot of things have / are occurring in the Northern Territory that make absolutely no sense but also the remoteness also needs to be understood & aboriginal land thrown into the mix plus corporate greed etc & the opportunities today are not what they used to be

I’ve not shot out of a chopper for a lot of years now & the license requirements these days now are pretty strict but have a mate in Western Australia that goes out mustering & shooting with his I guess you call him his business partner so I’ll check up with him but most likely a 308 & most left to rot along with many other species

A buff abattoir was going for awhile & mustering of buff was a good business for some but i don’t know if it’s up & going again but I can find out if wanted also some buff were going as live export

A lot of sad stuff in the territory ( as throughout Aussie also ) but some incredible stuff also & a lot is made way for cattle yes & been on properties /stations or guess ranches to some of you guys where every single buff is to be shot on sight & gain data on these which I had no hesitation in the past today I’m about done & some with not your conventional calibers or bullets although when your shooting say 20 buff for the day you learn what the good one’s are due to Critter reaction to concentrate more autopsy time on or a new pill developed & is so exciting to see it when it all comes together & one that we have some very good bullets today but a few I’m seeing are leading the way forward of covering more bases
So stay tuned on those but it will take longer than I once could gather the information but hey I’m still kicking lol

Hijack complete this time ??? i think not as you’ll waste no time bringing that 458 love of yours up again even on a varmit hunt lol

Cheers