Brass problem question

Discussion in 'Reloading' started by Firebird, Jun 26, 2019.

  1. bruce moulds

    bruce moulds AH Elite

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    with any cartridge, the neck should expand on firing such that a bullet will be a loose fit in the neck.
    the neck will have to be resized, and expanded to give the next bullet correct neck tension.
    the case body might still easily enter the chamber, and if so will not need sizing.
    however, in a dangerous game rifle, sizing the case as well is wise to guarantee every cartridge will chamber absolutely reliably.
    always measure case length however you size, as growth can reach the chamber transition causing pressures to skyrocket.
    best case life involves both partial annealing and minimal working of brass using dies that are not undersized for the chamber.
    polishing out a sizing die can be done with some research.
    not overloading also prolongs case life.
    the belt is designed as a headspacing method.
    otherwise a straight case would need a rim, or to headspace on the case mouth like a 45 acp.
    in the day, belted case could be made well undersize to easily chamber in bolt actions better than rimmed cases.
    the belt gave good headspace on loose cases, and fed from magazines better than rimmed.
    guys tended to leave brass on the ground then, so over working of brass was not an issue.
    also manufacturing tolerances were less tight than now, so looser fit was better.
    now we use the shoulder to headspace belted bottleneck rounds that we reload, just like any rimless round.
    straight cases still headspace on the belt when reloaded.
    when neck sizing only even with lighter pressure, sooner or later full length sizing will be required.
    with straight cases ( which still have a little taper), the fl die can be backed off to size less in many circumstances.
    with bottlenecks, the shoulder position must be maintained.
    the new breed of magnums have no belts.
    the marketing machine says that this produces improved accuracy over belted.
    the rub here is that if you believe that you must accept that the same companies are indicting their own loading practices when they load belted ammo.
    bruce.
     
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  2. CoElkHunter

    CoElkHunter AH Fanatic

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    BTW. This again is off this subject, but your available here as an experienced large bore rifle cartridge handloader. I have quite a bit of Win 748 ball powder on hand, which I have been using in reloading .308 Win and .22-250. I have seen load data for 500gr. .458WM bullets using W748. I have a number of Speer 350 gr Hot Cor and Barnes 450gr. TSX bullets for the .458, but can't find any load data using the W748 powder with those bullets. These would just be practice loads. Any suggestions?
     

  3. bruce moulds

    bruce moulds AH Elite

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    I have experience with 450 nitro 3 1/4" and 45/70 with smokeless, and 45/90 with black powder, but none with 458 win.
    it would appear that 748 is faster than varget, and slower than 3031.
    however, here is some data from nick harveys manual, 7th edition.
    win 748.
    450 gn bullet ( not specified)
    start 71 gn 2100 fps
    max76 gn 2250 fps
    from nick Harvey 1st edition
    350 gn bullet (not specified)
    win 748
    start 77 gn 2300 fps
    max 81 gn 2420 fps.
    from barnes manual no 1
    350 original barnesx
    win 748
    start 75 gn 2296 fps
    max 79 gn 2451 fps
    from this manual, 400 gn start is 73 gns and max is77
    500 gn start is71 gn and max is 75 gn.
    whether these nos can suggest a starting point for 450 gn is in the eye of the beholder.
    bruce.
     

  4. CoElkHunter

    CoElkHunter AH Fanatic

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    Thank you so much! Your loading data is the only thing so far I've bee able to find using W748 in the .458WM with lighter than 500gr. bullets. Unless I'm mistaken, the weight of the bullet determines the correct powder charge vs. the design (i.e pointed, flat point, round nose, etc.) of the bullet. The only difference I'm hesitant about, is when using all copper bullets, they are longer to gain the weight, so the powder charge may be slightly compressed or the bullet seated farther out from the case. I have some factory Barnes 450gr TSX, so I'll adjust the seating die to that cartridge (I guess?). They're crimped into the top bullet groove, but with using W748 that may change? Thanks again!
     

  5. CoElkHunter

    CoElkHunter AH Fanatic

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    Just a mention on manufacturing tolerances and modern firearm manufacturing. I recently bought my daughter-in-law an inexpensive Savage Axis in .243 Win for her birthday. She's owns and shoots her Glock Model 42 .380 and loves it. In long guns, she's only shot a 20ga shotgun and .22 rifles before, but is enthusiastic about shooting. Anyway, I was amazed at the quality of this Savage rifle. The bolt is smooth as silk and the trigger is a little heavy but crisp. I guess it's adjustable though. In the mid 70s when I started hunting and shooting, one would have had to pay a lot more ( inflation adjusted) for the same quality rifle. Just a thought!
     

  6. sestoppelman

    sestoppelman AH ENABLER AH Ambassador

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    Again, other factors come into play. I have M1's as well, never annealed and used to shoot HP matches with my H&R DCM rifle and did quite well with it. Never annealed for it or any other round. I have gotten so many loadings out of my Winchester brass I usually just throw them away when the rims get quit beat up. Probably well in excess of a dozen or more loadings. When I switched to the m14 platform, I was using RP brass for a while and was only getting 2-3 loadings before head separations. Switched to Win brass and got much better life. Brass make does matter, but annealing? Life is too short and brass plentiful. Never have, likely never will.
     

  7. Inline6

    Inline6 AH Veteran

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    It all depends on what you are after. I expect 1/4 moa or better. I expect sds in single digits. If I don't anneal I probably won't get that. It doesn't take that much time. What I loose with annealing I make up for with a Prometheus and a Giraud. I do my best in the reloading process just as much as I press the trigger. It all depends on the level you want to take it.
     
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  8. sestoppelman

    sestoppelman AH ENABLER AH Ambassador

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    I don't expect such shooting but it happens on occasion anyway despite my best mediocre efforts.:rolleyes: Its just too far into the weeds for me, I admit that.o_O:D
     

  9. Inline6

    Inline6 AH Veteran

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    In all honesty it takes a whole 7 seconds per case to anneal with an AMP.
     

  10. sestoppelman

    sestoppelman AH ENABLER AH Ambassador

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    Could be.... frankly I couldn't care less, cause I still aint gonna do it.:D:D
     

  11. bruce moulds

    bruce moulds AH Elite

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    how often can you agg 1/4 moa or better?
    bruce.
     

  12. sestoppelman

    sestoppelman AH ENABLER AH Ambassador

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    About 3 times, LOL.
     

  13. Inline6

    Inline6 AH Veteran

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    It all depends on conditions and myself. Eyes are not what they used to be. I don't shoot groups every time. The game I play requires to break position with almost every shot. I shoot targets from 10 to 1600 yards in competition. Most shots are not off your belly and definitely not off a bench. When I shoot I shoot in front of a Lab Radar so I know what's going on with my loads at all time. It's to easy not to. Point of impact can change with a little velocity change if you are in the wrong node. I do my best to track that. If I shoot a group I know when it is me or the rifle, I'm sure you now what I mean. As far as an agg I can't tell you. I know what I have done and when I can't get 1/4 MOA out of a barrel I spin up another. It might be 900 rds or 2500rds depending on what we are shooting.
     

  14. bruce moulds

    bruce moulds AH Elite

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    I envy your labradar.
    I have an fclass rifle built on a nesika bay action, abd use bartlein and Krieger barrels.
    in 3 different chamberings, shooting off a benchrest pedestal and rear bag, same position, I struggle to guarantee 1/2 moa vertical 600 yds and further.
    electronic targets are revealing that I am not the only one.
    this with neckturned and weighed cases, uniformed primer pockets, annealed cases and so on.
    constant work balancing seating depths, neck tension, jump/jam etc must be done to maintain my best.
    if I could other than sometimes get 1/4 moa vert, that would be 1/2 the x ring and I would be over the moon.
    there are just too many variables out there.
    bruce.
     

  15. CoElkHunter

    CoElkHunter AH Fanatic

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    Ok. I’ll play stupid (again). How do you “anneal” a case neck/shoulder? And would one want to do this process on a straight walled case such as a .458WM? Thank you.
     

  16. Inline6

    Inline6 AH Veteran

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  17. Inline6

    Inline6 AH Veteran

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    I had a 6XC that had a hawkhill barrel (I have had 2 in 6XC that acted like this). They were in the high 3s low 4s SDs. I have shot several groups for vertical at 1k. The several times I did this was in light wind. Horizontal was about 5", vertical was 1/2". Those hawkhill barrel are nice the problem I had was they only lasted a short time. One was out at 1100, the other made it to 1400. I have another on standby that is a 25cal. I'm going to see what I can do with a 25CM.

    Ironically my rifle is an Accuracy International, I only shoot off a bipod and a rear bag. When I do shoot for groups.
     

  18. CoElkHunter

    CoElkHunter AH Fanatic

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  19. Inline6

    Inline6 AH Veteran

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    No problem!
     

  20. meigsbucks

    meigsbucks AH Fanatic

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    6A9A3822-D4DE-4D13-9403-E66640240C2D.jpeg Years ago I had a Golden Eagle 7000 in .300 Wby. It had rear locking lugs and would stretch cases. It was rare to get more than two firings from a case. I had the headspace checked and it was fine. The rifle was very accurate but I couldn’t put up with the short case life.
    I’ve attached a photo of a separated case from that rifle. Why I kept it for about 30 years, I have no idea. However, the issue seems identical to yours.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 2, 2019

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