Bolt up instead of safety switch?

bruce moulds

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yes ivw.
i spent a few days in the back seat of a range rover with a 375 barrel pointing from the front into the back, chamber loaded and firing pin down.
the owner insisted it was safe, but again it was not pointing in his direction so no risk to him.
i will never go with that guy again.
have you ever noticed how guys like your friend never seem to do the test on an empty chamber?
bruce.
 

CoElkHunter

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I well remember one afternoon returning to camp. We had had some discussions regarding gun safety. I use a 500 Jeff on a ZKK602 action.
Outfitter who was a whenwe used a 505 GIBBS on a p14 action.

He had the bad habit of loading the rifle, chambering a round and then before letting the bolt handle down he would depress the trigger lowering the firing pin on the chambered round....

I said this was unsafe he insisted that it was totally safe, I mentiined again that if the rifle was dropped it could fire....
He then stomped off and duelly arrived with mentioned 505, did his thing and then proceded to bang the butt on the ground. First try and the 505 Went off he lost control of his grip on the barrel and the rifle fell on the ground.....he picked it up and sulking left without eating and only surfaced the next morning....it was a quite night around the campfire and it took a few days of glares received before I was spoken to again.....
I’ve seen a Capstick hunting video where he shows how to do the exact same thing as your outfitter did with pulling the trigger on a live round with a partially closed bolt and then closing the bolt with the now decocked firing pin on a live round in the chamber. Capstick stated this is how he carries his rifle when hunting. Too hairy for me to try it.
 

bowjijohn

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I too 'ease springs' by pulling the trigger and lowering the bolt - always with the non trigger hand

However I ease springs onto an empty chamber

I'd not be happy working with someone who's rifle had the firing pin resting on the primer
 

CoElkHunter

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I too 'ease springs' by pulling the trigger and lowering the bolt - always with the non trigger hand

However I ease springs onto an empty chamber

I'd not be happy working with someone who's rifle had the firing pin resting on the primer
I guess when the rifle is set up as Capstick describes, one needs to only work the bolt handle up then down to cock the firing pin and then fire. It seems fast for the first round, but as the OP described probably not all that safe. I might try it with a spent case with a piece of colored tape over the base of the case and see if I can get a primer strike on the tape by smacking the rifle butt on the ground? Why? No reason, but that’s what BobNelson35Whelen would probably do?
 

bruce moulds

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I’ve seen a Capstick hunting video where he shows how to do the exact same thing as your outfitter did with pulling the trigger on a live round with a partially closed bolt and then closing the bolt with the now decocked firing pin on a live round in the chamber. Capstick stated this is how he carries his rifle when hunting. Too hairy for me to try it.
just goes to show.
just because someone is famous we cannot infer that they are anything but famous.
bruce.
 

CoElkHunter

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just goes to show.
just because someone is famous we cannot infer that they are anything but famous.
bruce.
Very true Bruce. The concept of this is interesting, but I’ll leave this technique using LIVE cartridges to the Professionals along with the Africa style of rifle carry as I walk behind them.
 

JimP

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When it comes down to it I hate it when a rifle barrel is pointed in my direction. I don't care if it is loaded or not, if it is pointed at me I'll say something and I don't care who I piss off.

The rifle can be empty, on safe, hammer down, or whatever condition you want it to be in.
 

Nyati

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I carry with empty chamber until told by my PH to load.

I may also use use various types of carry but never point my gun at anyone, even with an empty gun.
 

Forrest Halley

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I had this mythical figure called a Dad that made an impression that I will never forget about gun safety. I will not point my firearm at someone loaded or not. I will not take a chance with someone else's safety for the chance of taking game. I will control my muzzle during all things to include falling down. I will carry my gun loaded in the field at appropriate times when the gun is under my control.
As I grew older I realized some people didn't have Dads. I amended my procedures to if you point yours at me I'm going to point mine at you and an impression will be made such that you will never again point yours at me. It's all...up...to you.
 

bowjijohn

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If you swept someone in the forces you were usually invited to run around with your rifle above your head saying I must not be a ''see you next tuesday'' for an hour or two

An ND or AD resulted in a charge and a fine, the size of which depended upon your rank
 

bruce moulds

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there are 2 rules of safety that cannot be argued with.
if someone does argue, be wary of them.
1)all guns are always loaded.
2)never allow a gun to point at anything you are not prepared to destroy.
no 1 is self explanatory and includes safety on or off.
no 2 requires a bit of thought.
certainly you can be in a condition of not pointing the thing in the wrong place, but you have to have control.
the african carry is an example of this.
yes it looks cool, casual, and relaxed.
should you trip or slip, or lose concentration for a second, where are the muzzle(s) then?
another thing not uncommon in pictures from africa is the guy wit but on the ground an one or two hands resting on the muzzle. lord spare me days.
with regards unloading rifles, if the gun is pointing safely you are already in front.
controlled round feed actions never need the bolt handle turned down for the extractor to grip the rim, leaving the cocking cam to prevent firing pin fall far better than any safety catch.
we must remember that safety should never be a matter of probability or luck, but one of control.
if ever i can get to africa one thing i will be discussing is safety protocols, and if they are lax i will be looking for another outfit.
bruce.
 

Bearbait1

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I once had an ad with a 20 side by side. While quail hunting I reloaded and closed the action and one barrel fired. I couldnt imagine my finger was near the trigger so I tried it again with the same result. Finally figured out that one of the firing pins was stuck in the fire position so it automatically fired when the action was closed. Everyone was safe because it was pointed in a safe condition. I will never allow a firearm to be pointed at me and I will never point one at myself or at another person. I know one person who’s dead and another lost use of his knee from their own firearms. Twice I’ve ended hunts because some idiot couldnt control their muzzle.
 

bruce moulds

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there are some to whom safety is about probability.
there are others to whom it is absolute.
if there is probability, there is a degree of risk.
if it is absolute there is no risk.
the latter is the only acceptable course of action.
bruce.
 

CoElkHunter

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If you swept someone in the forces you were usually invited to run around with your rifle above your head saying I must not be a ''see you next tuesday'' for an hour or two

An ND or AD resulted in a charge and a fine, the size of which depended upon your rank
Maybe in Africa the PH could make the hunter who does that, run to the hunting vehicle and back holding his EMPTY rifle above his end while singing an African National Anthem? If the hunter refuses, he gets no beer when back at the camp. Just my 2 centavos.
 

bruce moulds

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ceh,
it could go further than that.
assuming the ph is safe, there could be a clause in an agreement, signed by both parties, that any client who refuses to be safe by a predefined policy, that states that a client who is unsafe forfeits the hunt and any monies paid.
this would obviously give sensible clients a great degree of comfort, as well as the staff.
it could also be a legal requirement that this takes place to protect the hunting outfit.
bruce.
 

Vashper

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"Friends are killed exclusively with an unloaded gun"(с)(not me, but truth)
I don't really trust safers, any of them. During the service, 4 times I witnessed random shots, in the bullet catcher or in the floor. They were always experienced people who were familiar with weapons. And once I heard a shot near my ear - from my own rifle. A friend decided to try whether it was comfortable. He started hunting before I was born, by the way. All cases were without casualties and destruction, only because, with the general sloppiness of the persons involved, the main rule was still observed - do not point at people.
It seems to me that it would be a reasonable rule to keep the chamber empty, as is done on a shooting stand, and in such a way that it is visually understandable. Semi-open Mauser bolt - yes, as a variant. I, by the way, almost do not use it on hunting, because we have a draconian, but the correct rule in collective hunt - to load only in the firing position. And if you have to move to a new place - the cartridges from the magazine and the chamber must be removed.
 

mikecatt13

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There is absolutely no way I'd ever carry a gun with the bolt partially open, a round in the chamber, and the safety disegaged (as most designs require for the bolt to be opened). WAY too easy for it to close and the trigger be bumped, especially in brush. If a PH absolutely insisted, I would do it only on an empty chamber.

The guns I have that I see myself taking on safari are a Blaser S2 and R8. They cannot fire until cocked, but if someone wasnt comfortable with african carry on a loaded chamber I'd simply carry empty chamber or sling it barrel up.

Of all the possible carry methods and prevention of accidents, I'd rank loaded chamber safety off as the absolute worst, whether the bolt is partially open or not.
 

Longwalker

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However a rifle is carried, loaded or empty, safety engaged or not, the "African" carry method seems to me the most unsafe, poorly controlled, and least sensible way. Especially when people are walking in a line. So many hunters and PH think it makes them look stylish. Two hands, or a sling for me. Muzzle down, over the non shooting shoulder. And I prefer empty chamber, or loaded with Krieghoff style decocker. I hunted once with a man who thought "bolt up" was a good way to carry. He bumped the bolt release and the bolt was lost.
 

mikecatt13

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However a rifle is carried, loaded or empty, safety engaged or not, the "African" carry method seems to me the most unsafe, poorly controlled, and least sensible way. Especially when people are walking in a line. So many hunters and PH think it makes them look stylish. Two hands, or a sling for me. Muzzle down, over the non shooting shoulder. And I prefer empty chamber, or loaded with Krieghoff style decocker. I hunted once with a man who thought "bolt up" was a good way to carry. He bumped the bolt release and the bolt was lost.
For PG, many would say a sling is easiest probably. For DG, a sling isnt ideal for obvious reasons. I find African carry much less tiring than 2 handed by a good margin or even trail carry...but my rifles planned to go to africa have decockers.

I have a lot of hiking with my guns planned before my first safari so I plan to experiment with with various methods and despite decockers pick the best combination of energy conservation and muzzle direction.
 

roverandbrew

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there are some to whom safety is about probability.
there are others to whom it is absolute.
if there is probability, there is a degree of risk.
if it is absolute there is no risk.
the latter is the only acceptable course of action.
bruce.

I think firearms safety is much greater than an empty chamber. I personally have taught my children to know the status of their weapon and muzzle awareness as opposed to an unloaded gun. If a hunter is overweight or out of shape, has not spent sufficient range time to ensure he can accurately shoot, or can load and unload in the dark then he is UNSAFE. There is a reason there is a "stress test" for most every military shooting school. To me that is what is acceptable. Talking to a PH on my last trip I was amazed how many overweight and winded hunters who shoot poorly will plop their rifle on the sticks and squeeze off a round. That is unsafe. Sending a round in an unsafe direction or wounding an animal the PH has to deal with is wrong. Empty chamber or not I am not thrilled to hunt around that guy.
 

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