Being told you could not shoot an animal or were targeting only one animal

Blue Moon

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You are correct - my apologies - I painted the Continent with a pretty broad brush. However, it is pretty much the universal model through Spain, Germany, Austria, France's Alpine region, and much of central Europe - at least when hunting high game. I have not hunted Scandinavia. Russian Red Stag are certainly marketed by medal class. I would suspect that covers about 90% of the territory hunted by foreign hunters on the Continent.
Yes, but at least when it comes to roe deer in Central Europe you can almost always choose to hunt according to a price list with fixed prices just like in Africa. This model implies that you agree with the booking agent upon a fixed price, but the guide then later charges the booking agent "by the inch". You will of course pay a premium because the agent takes on a risk, but on the other hand you are guaranteed that the guide will work hard to find you the biggest possible deer.
 

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Yes, but at least when it comes to roe deer in Central Europe you can almost always choose to hunt according to a price list with fixed prices just like in Africa. This model implies that you agree with the booking agent upon a fixed price, but the guide then later charges the booking agent "by the inch". You will of course pay a premium because the agent takes on a risk, but on the other hand you are guaranteed that the guide will work hard to find you the biggest possible deer.
I agree. That is why I was referring to “high game”. Roe, are traditionally not considered such. Most European outfitters will simply book a Roe deer hunt. Wild boar are normally handled the same way.
 

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Hard to go wrong if one’s outfitter has this hunting philosophy.
.. and most certainly, if they have made certain the Hunter and Outfitter are on the same page.
 

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I agree with Brickburn don't be Naive we are managed from the time our boots hit the ground. It is their job to manage us.
I have never been told not to shoot a specific animal ONLY HOW MUCH PULLING THE TRIGGER WAS GOING TO COST IF I SHOT THAT FINE POTENTIAL SCI #1 ETC. ETC. One landowner had me in for tea and tried to sell me a massive springbuck for an hour that I am certain was a new #1 but way out of my league. To the credit of Ph's and landowners, etc. I have always know what the score was before we started hunting that day on a given property i.e was it free range kill the best we could, was it targeting a specific animal or size, or was it pay landowner by the inch (sables when they get over 40), etc. So always know what the deal and rules is before you start. And ultimately you dont have to pull the trigger and if you arent happy with the critter dont or you dont like the shot dont. FYI those landowners in RSA love to negotiate the prices and change the deals mid stream.
1. An Impala ram that was just introduced for breeding, that had arrived that day. No big deal.
2. Waterbuck - in the middle of a hunt the rules were changed midstream by the landowner for a BS reason. The owner did not see enough on his hunt the day before.- Pissed off hunters, who were seeing ample numbers through their hunting efforts.
3. Kudu - in the middle of a hunt the rules were changed midstream by the landowner for BS reason. - My friend was livid.
4. Record book animal on the hunting list - Spotted and mysteriously ignored. No explanation, or comment they just kept driving.

I'll stop there.

If you are under the impression you are not being managed from the time you arrive until you leave, you are sadly mistaken. It is the Outfitter and PH's job.

Discuss your expectations long before you arrive, including the hunting process. It will avoid disappointment.
 

Dinsdale

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" FYI those landowners in RSA love to negotiate the prices and change the deals mid stream."

Have to say I'm glad in a couple trips that hasn't been the case when hunting there for me.

Think I'll stick to my research plan, seems I have been getting lucky on the hunt end of things.
 

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My first hunt was all as free range as you get in RSA, in a low fence cattle/sheep/goat and non farmed areas. But we did not hunt the zebra herd near camp as they wanted to let it rebuild numbers.

Then I went with a couple other RSA outfits that were high fenced. At Spear there were 3 large buffalo bulls that were off limits because Ernest wanted them breeding for 3 years, and they were over his size limit for the hunt I booked. The widest bull was also young, and ear tagged.... side note; apparently that was a very Politically Correct bull with his ear tags, he was obviously not impressed by the female gender as he was never near cows and was always hanging with the younger boys;)

Then I had a great deal offered on a giraffe, but got out there and the big bull was off limits (understandable considering the guys situation, only one breeder bull on the property) and what he wanted me to shoot was immature and half size yet. So I turned it down. The guy was a little disappointed but thought about a minute and agreed he needed to wait a few years on the ones he wanted taken off.

So never a bad experience, but enough of the farmed stuff and now that I've had an opportunity to hunt the real wilds of Africa, there is no comparison in the hunt experience. I will hunt RSA again for some small predators and night critters, and things that are challenging and in open areas such a vaal rhebok. Otherwise my wish lists are in other places/countries;)
 

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Then I had a great deal offered on a giraffe, but got out there and the big bull was off limits (understandable considering the guys situation, only one breeder bull on the property) and what he wanted me to shoot was immature and half size yet. So I turned it down. The guy was a little disappointed but thought about a minute and agreed he needed to wait a few years on the ones he wanted taken off.

This always makes me roll my eyes, and can be a little insulting even.

When an outfitter offers a "great deal" and then gets disappointed or upset that you don't think it's as great of a deal as he does, and you don't accept his "generous offer."
 

Blue Moon

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I agree. That is why I was referring to “high game”. Roe, are traditionally not considered such. Most European outfitters will simply book a Roe deer hunt. Wild boar are normally handled the same way.
Yes, I noticed that you wrote high game. :) Some booking agents though nowadays offer fixed price hunts on red deer and fallow deer as well, so I think hunting by a fixed price list has become more common even though it's not the norm.
 

ActionBob

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Yes, I noticed that you wrote high game. :) Some booking agents though nowadays offer fixed price hunts on red deer and fallow deer as well, so I think hunting by a fixed price list has become more common even though it's not the norm.
I hope that takes root;)

Although I was very frustrated trying to get the straight story on an Ibex hunt in Spain.... I was quoted a top trophy Ibex by a guy but after many messages it turns out it would be the best we can find that is at least 1/2" under the Bronze Medal category. Then another offer "includes medal fees"..... But can't get a straight answer on that. Does it mean I can shoot a Gold Medal and not pay extra? Still uncertain but from communications so far, I think it basically means they will ensure I don't get a chance at anything that touches bronze medal status....

One thing that would be really nice when looking at hunts good straight honest upfront answers..... If it takes more than a couple messages asking the same questions, I tend to move on... Realizing there are some language and cultural barriers... But come on!
 
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Stuey

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With absolute respect, animals with ear tags??? Animal a no shoot because they are saved for someone else??? Animals sold by the inch??? Why play that game?
I get it that there is a broad spectrum of hunters some with physical limitations, that may need to attend a more ‘intensive’ operation but this thing ain’t for me. I want that ‘what’s around the corner’ or ‘is today the day’ feeling as I kit up in the morning.
A perfect example is the 60 inch kudu posted on this forum by Kowas, a real trophy, hunted free range, I would bet that the client had no idea what was around the corner that day. That is hunting at its core.
Unless you really have to, why not look to the wilderness option, get away from the fences and the controlled environment, the ‘problem’ cage bred lion that is killing the neighbours cattle, the 50 inch buff that thinks when you walk up to it it is time for a scratch, you get the picture.....
Namibia, Zim, Moz, Zambia all offer the real open places with free range and a touch of excitement, SA has some great areas too but do the research.
Given the cost of a trip to Africa, the trophy fees etc why pay to experience an artificial safari?
My 2 cents
Cheers Stu
 

ActionBob

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With absolute respect, animals with ear tags??? Animal a no shoot because they are saved for someone else??? Animals sold by the inch??? Why play that game?
I get it that there is a broad spectrum of hunters some with physical limitations, that may need to attend a more ‘intensive’ operation but this thing ain’t for me. I want that ‘what’s around the corner’ or ‘is today the day’ feeling as I kit up in the morning.
A perfect example is the 60 inch kudu posted on this forum by Kowas, a real trophy, hunted free range, I would bet that the client had no idea what was around the corner that day. That is hunting at its core.
Unless you really have to, why not look to the wilderness option, get away from the fences and the controlled environment, the ‘problem’ cage bred lion that is killing the neighbours cattle, the 50 inch buff that thinks when you walk up to it it is time for a scratch, you get the picture.....
Namibia, Zim, Moz, Zambia all offer the real open places with free range and a touch of excitement, SA has some great areas too but do the research.
Given the cost of a trip to Africa, the trophy fees etc why pay to experience an artificial safari?
My 2 cents
Cheers Stu

Have to agree 100%.

And right now there are such good deals floating around, even for those real wild places... If one is able, why not go for it!?

Another thing to consider, by the time you have done all the preparation, travel, etc. Then look at the taxidermy bill... Add up the total cost and if it takes just a little more to hunt a wild place, it becomes a small percentage.
 

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I hope that takes root;)

Although I was very frustrated trying to get the straight story on an Ibex hunt in Spain.... I was quoted a top trophy Ibex by a guy but after many messages it turns out it would be the best we can find that is at least 1/2" under the Bronze Medal category. Then another offer "includes medal fees"..... But can't get a straight answer on that. Does it mean I can shoot a Gold Medal and not pay extra? Still uncertain but from communications so far, I think it basically means they will ensure I don't get a chance at anything that touches bronze medal status....

One thing that would be really nice when looking at hunts good straight honest upfront answers..... If it takes more than a couple messages asking the same questions, I tend to move on... Realizing there are some language and cultural barriers... But come on!
I doubt it will catch on. I know of no outfitter in Europe who will allow you to shoot a Gold or silver medal stag, chamois, ibex, etc for a flat fee. Not one. Roe deer - yes. Perhaps Blue Moon can pass along some contacts.
 

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Even with Roe deer, if you do get a flat fee, it means there are no exceptional animals on the property. If you want a gold medal, you´ll have to pay the price :(
 

Blue Moon

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I doubt it will catch on. I know of no outfitter in Europe who will allow you to shoot a Gold or silver medal stag, chamois, ibex, etc for a flat fee. Not one. Roe deer - yes. Perhaps Blue Moon can pass along some contacts.
I am more interested in roe deer hunting, but here are two well known booking agents operating in Scandinavia that I have come across when researching roe deer hunts. The price offered by the booking agent will of course be based on what size the area normally holds and how much height on the price he needs in order insure himself against the event that the hunter shoots an above average trophy.
Chamois: https://www.korsholm-jagtrejser.dk/...urpackaging/show/tourpackage/Tourpackage.html
Red deer: https://www.diana-hunting.com/europe/hungary/stag-hunt-in-hungary-fixed-price#Overview
 

Red Leg

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I am more interested in roe deer hunting, but here are two well known booking agents operating in Scandinavia that I have come across when researching roe deer hunts. The price offered by the booking agent will of course be based on what size the area normally holds and how much height on the price he needs in order insure himself against the event that the hunter shoots an above average trophy.
Chamois: https://www.korsholm-jagtrejser.dk/...urpackaging/show/tourpackage/Tourpackage.html
Red deer: https://www.diana-hunting.com/europe/hungary/stag-hunt-in-hungary-fixed-price#Overview
Thanks.
 

Blue Moon

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Even with Roe deer, if you do get a flat fee, it means there are no exceptional animals on the property. If you want a gold medal, you´ll have to pay the price :(
You will pay the price even when hunting on a flat fee, in fact you will pay a higher price because the booking agents needs an insurance for the case you shoot a bigger deer than expected. Of course there can be good animals on the property but this will be reflected in the fixed price. Over time it will probabaly be more favourable for a hunter hunting "by the inch" than on a flat fee, because of the premium the booking agent needs to cover himself from unlikely events. Your upside as a hunter is that you do not have to turn down a real good opportunity due to finances (But on average you will pay a premium for this). I have not hunting in Africa, but I'm pretty certain that you in most cases will pay a higher flat fee in areas that hold larger trophys. I do agree with you that it is probably more common with fixed prices in areas that either normally hold smaller trophys or for some reason may be less popular. My point is that a good booking agent should be able to offer you both alternatives if they have access to good stats from the area (which they in many cases have). It's just two different methods on pricing the same asset.
 

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I am more interested in roe deer hunting, but here are two well known booking agents operating in Scandinavia that I have come across when researching roe deer hunts. The price offered by the booking agent will of course be based on what size the area normally holds and how much height on the price he needs in order insure himself against the event that the hunter shoots an above average trophy.
Chamois: https://www.korsholm-jagtrejser.dk/...urpackaging/show/tourpackage/Tourpackage.html
Red deer: https://www.diana-hunting.com/europe/hungary/stag-hunt-in-hungary-fixed-price#Overview

Looking at the site you forwarded, the fixed price hunt gets you up to a 7kg stag. In Hungary, the bronze medal class begins at 7kg So this is a fixed price hunt for non-medal stags (what we in the States would call a management deer). That might very well be an enjoyable hunting experience - it often is here in the States. However, as I noted before, I know of no hunting outfitter in Europe who offers medal class stags, chamois, ibex, etc for a flat fee.

Africa is a big place. Though the Euro system has gained some traction in South Africa, and to a much lesser extent, Namibia, most hunting is not priced by trophy size. Get out from behind a fence as in Zim, Moz, most of Namibia, and many areas of South Africa, and total focus is to get the best quality (age and size) trophy for the client that can be found in the area. In many cases, the fenced animals (depending upon species) will be larger due to selective breeding and supplemental feeding. But then the hunting experience tends to be somewhat different as well.
 

Blue Moon

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Looking at the site you forwarded, the fixed price hunt gets you up to a 7kg stag. In Hungary, the bronze medal class begins at 7kg So this is a fixed price hunt for non-medal stags (what we in the States would call a management deer). That might very well be an enjoyable hunting experience - it often is here in the States. However, as I noted before, I know of no hunting outfitter in Europe who offers medal class stags, chamois, ibex, etc for a flat fee.

Africa is a big place. Though the Euro system has gained some traction in South Africa, and to a much lesser extent, Namibia, most hunting is not priced by trophy size. Get out from behind a fence as in Zim, Moz, most of Namibia, and many areas of South Africa, and total focus is to get the best quality (age and size) trophy for the client that can be found in the area. In many cases, the fenced animals (depending upon species) will be larger due to selective breeding and supplemental feeding. But then the hunting experience tends to be somewhat different as well.
Yes, but from what I can read the area normally holds stags up to 7 kg and it's not a cap on what you are allowed to shoot, just what the area normally holds, but I might be wrong. I think that we are on same page here, but my point is that there are no free lunches: You will have to pay for a good trophy one way or the other, even in Africa. A guide in Poland or Hungary will also focus on getting you the best possible trophy. For the record, I personally have a very strong biased against the Euro system, because I like to go hunting, not shopping.
 

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Recently I was provided a trail cam photo of a Kudu that has been made known to me is off limits BEFORE my hunt. I understand the reason and it is likely a 64+ " bull and at least I know ahead of time.
 

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