Any Appetite for a New <$10K Double?

[A. Swan]

As someone that is on the fence between a Sabatti and a Merkel (price being a major factor), If a brand like Chapuis would release a sub $10K double in 450/400 it would convert me from a shopper to a buyer instantly.

450/400 gets my vote and I believe it would open a large untapped section of the market.

 

[Bandera]

I realize that the AH crowd and people who actually hunt in Africa and other parts of the world are a small percentage of gun owners and hunters.
I am also shopping for a double rifle.
Having a double rifle in the 10k range and having it chambered in affordable ammo offerings is a selling point.
My thoughts on calibers.
A 375 H&H is decent offering. Covers that do all mind set, ammo is easy to find at a decent price. Easy to find reloading components.

A 375 H&H rimed would also be interesting.

The 45-70 does not appeal to me for a double rifle.

The 405 Winchester would be an interesting offering.

The 450-400 NE that would be the ticket. I don’t think it would affect sales for the other lines.
Like most things buying a double rifle is not a one and done. There is the entry purchase and then the follow up rifles.

Having the factory cut for a RMR or Docter would be a great selling point.

 

[BFaucett]

All,

As some of you know, I manage a brand of double rifles (Chapuis). I am kicking around some ideas for 2026 new product introductions. One of them is to offer a basic model with no engraving, 2-star wood and no special finish, that would retail for less than $10,000 in 2026.

The calibers I'm thinking about are .375 H&H and .45-70. Configuration would be the same as my African doubles (large action, 26" barrels, express sights, double triggers, ejectors, manual safety).

Why the .45-70? Because with it, hunters could also use it here in the US, especially in states that allow straight-wall cartridges for big game. Why no .450-400 and .470? Because doing so would necessarily cannibalize from my other two lines, the Iphisi and the Elan Classic & Artisan, which are selling well.

Also, I'm thinking of including mounts for RMR red dots on all my African-sized doubles, free of charge.

I'd like to hear your thoughts about this, as well as any suggestions you may have (realistic!) for anything else.

Thank you all in advance, as always.

Interesting.

I think the .375 H&H is a good choice. Instead of .45-70, I suggest .405 Winchester. An American cartridge, to appeal to the American market, while it also has a history of use in Africa. IIRC, I think there were a few doubles made in .405 by the British gunmakers. Also, Kynoch listed it in their catalogs.

Just my two cents... Cheers! Bob F.

 

[1dirthawker]

the problem i see with a 45-70 double (i had one) is there are like 4 different power levels to load it to, which one does the hunter get it regulated to?

whereas the 450-400 is regulated to a 2100-2150 fps 400 gr load all the time. i too would vote for the 450-400

 

[crackerman]

Having chased a Cow Buff and now dreaming of a bull with a double I would absolutely buy a .375H&H for that price point. its a little stretch but still useable here in the states especially the east coast.

 

[ActionBob]

I my humble opinion, stick with your original thoughts as far as caliber goes.
The 375 H&H has a world wide appeal and availability. The 45/70, while not quite as broad of audience, does have the appeal to your target market, the person who is not a cartridge "snob" (I'm one that falls into the"snob" arena BTW). There are many cartridges that may do a better job and everyone has a favorite, obviously. The 45/70 would have an audience of the person who would use it for deer, black bear, elk and maybe moose.
In a former life I was an advertising exec. The key to having a successful product is to 1st identify your target market, then have a product that can/will appeal to that market.
375 H&H huge appeal, 45/70 common and fills a market for people who already are familiar with it and, for both, reloading component availability.

I'm just skeptical that the 45/70 people will send anywhere close to $10,000 on a rifle....

 

[BJH65]

Someone previously mentioned the 500 S&W. In a double rifle it would be similar in power to the 450/400 but not competing with your 450/400 doubles but geared towards the American market. The 500 S&W is a semi rimmed case as well so perhaps more foolproof extraction? I think one in 375 H&H and 500 S&W would be the perfect ticket.

 

[DaBill]

I don't think the 405 win or the 500 S&W have the ballistics to hunt dangerous game. We need something to fit that bill otherwise I don't see this working for potential sales.
Thinking outside the box how about the .500 Linebaugh Maximum (Rimmed) or the .50 Alaskan (Rimmed). They would not compete with traditional DG Calibers.

 

[Mtn_Infantry]

I'm just skeptical that the 45/70 people will send anywhere close to $10,000 on a rifle....

100% - I’m also skeptical that all the people saying 375H&H will spend $10k on one. I’d bet it’s less than 10% of the people commenting own one if/when it drops. The other thing to think about is once launched within a couple years the production costs will have it becoming a 12k gun, then a $14-15k gun and so on.

My logic is, if they someone has $10k to spend on a 375 double vs their $2-3k bolt action, they’d have already bought one of the doubles on the market in that price realm be it 375, 416, 450-400, 470, or 500. Additionally if one can justify (and get their spouse to agree) to spend $10k on a double they can certainly afford to save another 6-12mo and spend $12k on a better quality used double.

Everyone wishes and says they’d spend $10k on a double in 375 but the reality is if they could they’d already own one. I’ve seen used Merkel, Chapuis Brouse, and K-Gun doubles, $10-12k range, plus some Rhizini and Sabatti models new and used for less, in some form of every caliber mentioned within the last 2 weeks …… Haven’t seen too many “My New Double” posts.

 

[BJH65]

I don't think the 405 win or the 500 S&W have the ballistics to hunt dangerous game. We need something to fit that bill otherwise I don't see this working for potential sales.

The 500 S&W has been successfully used on the Big 5. Attached is Bighorn Armory’s data sheet. 500 S&W 400 grain bullet at 2275 FPS from 18 inch barrel is absolutely adequate for DG at the typical distances under 100 yards.

 

[Russ16]

100% - I’m also skeptical that all the people saying 375H&H will spend $10k on one. I’d bet it’s less than 10% of the people commenting own one if/when it drops. The other thing to think about is once launched within a couple years the production costs will have it becoming a 12k gun, then a $14-15k gun and so on.

My logic is, if they someone has $10k to spend on a 375 double vs their $2-3k bolt action, they’d have already bought one of the doubles on the market in that price realm be it 375, 416, 450-400, 470, or 500. Additionally if one can justify (and get their spouse to agree) to spend $10k on a double they can certainly afford to save another 6-12mo and spend $12k on a better quality used double.

Everyone wishes and says they’d spend $10k on a double in 375 but the reality is if they could they’d already own one. I’ve seen used Merkel, Chapuis Brouse, and K-Gun doubles, $10-12k range, plus some Rhizini and Sabatti models new and used for less, in some form of every caliber mentioned within the last 2 weeks …… Haven’t seen too many “My New Double” posts.

Show me where I can get a 450/400 double at $10k or less (assuming quality) and you’ll see me post about it. I wouldn’t buy a .375 double at any price. I have no interest in a rimless double makes no sense to me. .375 is a bolt gun cartridge. I may $10k on a bolt .375 but not a double.

Quality on the double is key to what I just said. I’ve seen a few n the price range I’m talking but haven’t been sure on quality. Thai thread makes me hopeful one is forthcoming.

 

[DaBill]

BJH65 I stand corrected. I didn't consider barrel length. Specs look good and it has a good bullet selection. I would vote for this caliber also!

 

[Mtn_Infantry]

Show me where I can get a 450/400 double at $10k or less (assuming quality) and you’ll see me post about it. I wouldn’t buy a .375 double at any price. I have no interest in a rimless double makes no sense to me. .375 is a bolt gun cartridge. I may $10k on a bolt .375 but not a double.

Quality on the double is key to what I just said. I’ve seen a few n the price range I’m talking but haven’t been sure on quality. Thai thread makes me hopeful one is forthcoming.

There was recently a used Chapuis Iphisi for $10.5k, there’s a new one at Gordy’s for $13.7, there’s a VC for $9k, and there was a Merkel 160 for $13.5k a few months ago. All these were on common sites and searchable with a few minutes of looking in your chosen caliber. If you know and talk to the right shops around the country you’ll also find out about off market guns or store stock. Many times the stuff online has sat for a couple months before it’s been listed.

If you expand your caliber choice there’s multiple 500/450’s, a Kreighoff 500/416 in the $10k range +\- 10%. If you expand your budget 20-40% you have a British made double in your preferred caliber or multiple NiB Chapuis Elan’s, or several different quality manufacturers in 450NE, 450 No2, 475 No2, 470, and 500 calibers. None of these include off market, upcoming auctions or store stock non advertised guns. These are/were all advertised prices and many times you can negotiate them for less.

If you can afford $10k you can afford another 20% with very little trouble, and likely have something you can sell to get that money quickly. I also salute you on only wanting a rimmed cartridge.

 

[BJH65]

BJH65 I stand corrected. I didn't consider barrel length. Specs look good and it has a good bullet selection. I would vote for this caliber also!

In truth it doesn’t have the sectional density of the 450/400 Nitro and 416’s unless you move up to a 450 or 500 grain bullet for the 500 S&W and a lot of bullets loaded for 500 S&W were designed for the lower pistol velocities.

It would be important to use a good bullet for DG. I think Michael458 did a lot of testing with the lighter weight 45 and 50 caliber 275 grain and 300 grain homogeneous copper solids like CEB that performed very well on DG in his custom cartridges.

Anyways, if they made a double in 500 S&W for 10k, I’d sell off some rifles and buy one, not because it’s ideal for Africa, but just for fun and for North American use and the 500 S&W ammo is plentiful.

 

[PerH]

Interesting.

I think the .375 H&H is a good choice. Instead of .45-70, I suggest .405 Winchester. An American cartridge, to appeal to the American market, while it also has a history of use in Africa. IIRC, I think there were a few doubles made in .405 by the British gunmakers. Also, Kynoch listed it in their catalogs.

View attachment 684168

Just my two cents... Cheers! Bob F.

Some German also made them , there is one of two for sale here in Norway from a store , but price in request .

 

[Wishfulthinker580]

The thing about the $10k 375 H&H is that if people wanted one they would have already bought the Iphisi. Same thing with the 9.3x74r, it was readily available in the x4(?) for a while at around $7400 IIRC. If people wanted a double in that cartridge for <$10k they would have it. Really need to know how far under $10k we’re talking or talk different cartridges.

 

[Kharn]

I'd like to see a dedicated cold weather double rifle for stalking less than <100yrds.
A Stocky Short Double Barreled Frosted Stainless Steel (no reflections) with a Deep Dark Blue Synthetic Stock.

I see a lot of videos on the YouTubes of people hunting brown bears in Alaska (not a statement of experience by any means) with Bolt Rifles and it feels like in 1/2 the videos the rifle jams...

There was one video where it nearly cost a pair of hunters their lives as they had wounded the big brown bear but instead of fleeing, it got straight up & started to shamble towards them from 300-400yrds away all whilst the shooter with the only rifle was trying to fix the jamming bolt, the hunting pair ended up retreating from the bear but it still reached them, the shooter with a still jammed rifle abandonded it in the final few moments and put 4-5 Rounds from his Bear Protection .454 Casull into the bear finally killing it 5 yards from himself, when they back tracked to get the gear they left whilst retreating from the bear there was bear tracks and bear blood over their retreating tracks and circling around the gear they left behind where they initially shot the bear with the then working rifle.

My !fictional! set of Stainless Steel with Synthetic Stock Double Rifles designed for American Hunting consists of...
.22 Hornet (Pest/Plinking)
.30-30 Win (Deer/Pig)
.30R Blaser (Elk/Goat/Sheep/Wolves) [OverUnder cause it's the long range dbl in the set]
.45/70 Govt (Bear/Moose/Bison)
Any one of the Nitro Express >.400 up to .500 NE (Bear/Moose/Bison)

 

[Russ16]

There was recently a used Chapuis Iphisi for $10.5k, there’s a new one at Gordy’s for $13.7, there’s a VC for $9k, and there was a Merkel 160 for $13.5k a few months ago. All these were on common sites and searchable with a few minutes of looking in your chosen caliber. If you know and talk to the right shops around the country you’ll also find out about off market guns or store stock. Many times the stuff online has sat for a couple months before it’s been listed.

If you expand your caliber choice there’s multiple 500/450’s, a Kreighoff 500/416 in the $10k range +\- 10%. If you expand your budget 20-40% you have a British made double in your preferred caliber or multiple NiB Chapuis Elan’s, or several different quality manufacturers in 450NE, 450 No2, 475 No2, 470, and 500 calibers. None of these include off market, upcoming auctions or store stock non advertised guns. These are/were all advertised prices and many times you can negotiate them for less.

If you can afford $10k you can afford another 20% with very little trouble, and likely have something you can sell to get that money quickly. I also salute you on only wanting a rimmed cartridge.

Thank you but you kind of make my point. They post is about a double at $10k or less you you say increase the budget by 20-40%. Twenty percent maybe, forty percent is a different plateau in my mind. That gets into the territory paying for a good chunk of another hunt. But maybe I just have to bite the bullet so to speak.

Admittedly I’m much more versed in the double shotgun world and market than double rifles. Easier for me to buy expensive shotguns that I use but don’t abuse and sell them for what I paid or more. I expect a double rifle is going the used much harder and I’m less likely to maintain pristine condition like I can with a shotgun by being selective when and how I use it.

 

[PerH]

I would liked a laminate stock as option also , won’t feel cold , and quite stable .

 

[Rifleman97]

I'd like to see a dedicated cold weather double rifle for stalking less than <100yrds.
A Stocky Short Double Barreled Frosted Stainless Steel (no reflections) with a Deep Dark Blue Synthetic Stock.

I see a lot of videos on the YouTubes of people hunting brown bears in Alaska (not a statement of experience by any means) with Bolt Rifles and it feels like in 1/2 the videos the rifle jams...

There was one video where it nearly cost a pair of hunters their lives as they had wounded the big brown bear but instead of fleeing, it got straight up & started to shamble towards them from 300-400yrds away all whilst the shooter with the only rifle was trying to fix the jamming bolt, the hunting pair ended up retreating from the bear but it still reached them, the shooter with a still jammed rifle abandonded it in the final few moments and put 4-5 Rounds from his Bear Protection .454 Casull into the bear finally killing it 5 yards from himself, when they back tracked to get the gear they left whilst retreating from the bear there was bear tracks and bear blood over their retreating tracks and circling around the gear they left behind where they initially shot the bear with the then working rifle.

My !fictional! set of Stainless Steel with Synthetic Stock Double Rifles designed for American Hunting consists of...
.22 Hornet (Pest/Plinking)
.30-30 Win (Deer/Pig)
.30R Blaser (Elk/Goat/Sheep/Wolves) [OverUnder cause it's the long range dbl in the set]
.45/70 Govt (Bear/Moose/Bison)
Any one of the Nitro Express >.400 up to .500 NE (Bear/Moose/Bison)

View attachment 684209

I would love one of these someday, I’m a bit infamous for loving stainless for the look of it.

I think stainless and either a epoxy stabilized laminate stock (all the benefits of synthetic, no worries of it moving on you) would keep more of the beauty of the rifle, even if not nearly as pretty as fine Circassian walnut, and still be flawless functionality

And as a wildcatter, I think it would be fun to do one in a 450/400 shortened a bit and necked down to 35 cal to have oomph but less drop for bear country.

Or even a 7.62x54r wildcat where it’s just necked down slightly to .308 instead of .311 for better bullet selection

None of this will probably ever happen, but it’s fun to think about