Another 458 Win Mag thread

[michael458]

My First 458 Winchester, a old early control feed gun, it used to sport a crappy factory stock, this would have been an early 90s gun I think, long before the newer straight in line stocks you have seen since the early 2000s........Barrel is factory 22 inch. It has taken a few critters and been a few places, 3 lions, numerous plains game, and a buffalo or two as well........ After it was retired, Wes at Accurate Innovations had a stock that would fit it, so we put a new AI stock on. Also early on, I had a good relationship with Leslie Dengler, head of the old Winchester Custom shop. Well, remember that Big 5 Series that Winchester did also in the early 2000s I believe, there was 125 guns each made for the Big 5. I was in on #50 and #97 of those, but thank God I missed the 375HH gun, or I would have had to refuse it. So happens, the 375 was the Lion gun, with the nice gold lion engraving on the floor plate. Since this 458 was my Lion Gun, Leslie was kind enough to have a floor plate done for me......

After many years of my other 458 Winchesters being Safe Queens, I decided to sell a bunch of my common Winchesters, leaving me with nothing but my Lion Gun. About a year or so ago, I wanted to do some more work/research with 458 Winchester, but did not really want to drag my Lion Gun in for that mission, so it gave me a good excuse to get a brand new model Winchester 458. So I did, sent it and had the barrel shortened to a proper length, 20 inches, had NECG Barrel band front put on and have been extremely pleased with this gun...... Using todays modern bullet technology, this gun can accomplish any mission required of it.

I love my 458s, but my first real and extremely positive experiences with 458 caliber was with 458 Winchester, so regardless of all my B&M Series (and they are good) and all the other things I have a passion for, there is always a place for 458 Winchester here.

 

[KIH]

My First 458 Winchester, a old early control feed gun, it used to sport a crappy factory stock, this would have been an early 90s gun I think, long before the newer straight in line stocks you have seen since the early 2000s........Barrel is factory 22 inch. It has taken a few critters and been a few places, 3 lions, numerous plains game, and a buffalo or two as well........ After it was retired, Wes at Accurate Innovations had a stock that would fit it, so we put a new AI stock on. Also early on, I had a good relationship with Leslie Dengler, head of the old Winchester Custom shop. Well, remember that Big 5 Series that Winchester did also in the early 2000s I believe, there was 125 guns each made for the Big 5. I was in on #50 and #97 of those, but thank God I missed the 375HH gun, or I would have had to refuse it. So happens, the 375 was the Lion gun, with the nice gold lion engraving on the floor plate. Since this 458 was my Lion Gun, Leslie was kind enough to have a floor plate done for me......

View attachment 589966

View attachment 589967

After many years of my other 458 Winchesters being Safe Queens, I decided to sell a bunch of my common Winchesters, leaving me with nothing but my Lion Gun. About a year or so ago, I wanted to do some more work/research with 458 Winchester, but did not really want to drag my Lion Gun in for that mission, so it gave me a good excuse to get a brand new model Winchester 458. So I did, sent it and had the barrel shortened to a proper length, 20 inches, had NECG Barrel band front put on and have been extremely pleased with this gun...... Using todays modern bullet technology, this gun can accomplish any mission required of it.

View attachment 589965


I love my 458s, but my first real and extremely positive experiences with 458 caliber was with 458 Winchester, so regardless of all my B&M Series (and they are good) and all the other things I have a passion for, there is always a place for 458 Winchester here.

Any ideas about how much speed you loose by shortening the barrel from 22" to 20"?

 

[michael458]

Any ideas about how much speed you loose by shortening the barrel from 22" to 20"?

Nope....... But I know the numbers from 24 inches to 20 inches............I did not use the same loads in the 20 inch gun as I did in the 22 inch gun back in the late 90s--early 2000s....... I have load data and pressure data with 24 inch guns and now 20 inch gun...............

In 450 gr weights about 16 fps per inch........400 gr weights/velocities 20 fps per inch

Less weights, 250s to 300s no real noticeable differences.........

 

[Ku-winda]

Damn Michael, your 458 lion gun is a beauty!!!

 

[6.5 wildcatter]

HEH...... Yep....... Good to see you as always........... and on one of Our Favorite Subjects.... .458..........

Yes, I think that 400 Solid is a good addition to 458 caliber bullets, a Solid that will go with the many various excellent 400 gr Bullets available today, 404 Hammer being one of those.......I have not had time to work with it however .......... I still have 458 Winchester to do some shelf Ammo ...... Maybe I will make that 20 inch 458 Winchester of mine a 400 gr type of rifle............. Tune it for those weights...

BTW, some interesting work this week on B&M...... Sam and I are testing some very serious .308 caliber solids Tuesday. Might be worth tuning in on Wednesday for those results............. FYI.......

You know how good we love Solids here................

View attachment 589508

View attachment 589506

michael458,

Just visited the CEB website looking for the 400 grain 0.458” brass Safari Solid but don’t see it listed for order. Is it already available for sale or still in prototyping? I’m I nterested in determining how it’ll work in my Ruger Hawkeye Alaskan 458WM+, possibly for my upcoming Zim trip this summer.

Last time I used the 0.458” 450 gr SS and it worked well. But loonies are never satisfied unless we’re experimenting!!

 

[Altitude sickness]

I love my warhorse .458 WM.

nice wood, great trigger, shoots very well to the sights. Nice brown patina on the 20” barrel.

 

[michael458]

Just visited the CEB website looking for the 400 grain 0.458” brass Safari Solid but don’t see it listed for order. Is it already available for sale or still in prototyping?

I like that bullet, and we had two runs of them made, 250 with a .600 nose projection and 500 with a .700 nose projection...... I recommended to Dan to add them to the .458 regular stock, maybe they have not got to the point yet? I think some calls about that might help?

Last time I used the 0.458” 450 gr SS and it worked well. But loonies are never satisfied unless we’re experimenting!!

Depending on the mission, don't discount that 325 Safari solid, it is a winner as well.......... Originally designed for my Super Short series, it is a dandy bullet in any .458 caliber bolt gun, or singles..... Not the lever solid.......

 

[Riflecrank]

All .458 Winchester Magnum rifles are things of beauty.
Thanks for sharing, y'all.
Even a .458 WinMag that was foolishly re-chambered to .458 Lott (.458 L for Loser)
can be reclaimed from being an ugly thing to a thing of beauty by calling it a .458 Watts Express.
Mine Four-Five-Eights are in galleries at 24hrcampfire, not permitted here.
But this is permitted:

Timeline:
1939: James Watts standing in a creek near Black Rapids, Alaska shoots charging grizzly with .375 H&H Winchester Model 70 and
bear claws Watts' .45 LC revolver off his hip as bear runs him over, then fleeing bear dies on "far side" of creek.

1945: At end of WWII, James Watts begins writing to WRAC asking if they can make a .458/.375 H&H M70 Winchester,
and begins visiting Buhmiller, Ackley and Barnes for components.

1949: James Watts with enabler-gunsmith Harvey Anderson creates and fires first .450 Watts Magnum rifle
with 2.850" maximum case length, soon followed by 2.5"-cased .450 Watts Short.

1950: Harvey Anderson copyrights .450 Watts Magnum name.

1954: James Watts signs release clearing WRAC to develop .458 Winchester Magnum.

1956: .458 Winchester Magnum is released upon the world.

1959: Jack Lott gut-shoots cape buffalo with 510-grain .458 WinMag factory load, then continues hunting with same cartridge for more than a decade.

1971: Jack Lott uses .450 Watts chamber reamer and a SAAMI .458 WinMag rifle to whip out the .458 Lott, and 22 more years pass ...

1993: R.I.P. Jack Lott.

June 4, 1998, a day that will live in infamy: SAAMI homologation of the .458 Lott as engineered by Art Alphin of A-Square.

2002: Hornady and Ruger produce ammunition and rifles for SAAMI .458 Lott, and 22 more years pass ...

2024: The .458 Watts Express (2.8") gets righteous, 75 years after the .450 Watts Magnum (2.85") started it all.

 

[hoytcanon]

So, should I set my Ruger RSM Lott back and rechamber to WM?

 

[Riflecrank]

No Sir,
That would be silly.
All you need to do is run a SAAMI .458 Winchester Magnum reamer into it to extend the throat
all leade with zero parallel-sided free-bore.
Then you too can have a .458 Watts Express instead of a .458 Loser.
Keep all of your integral quarter rib and get more whomp.
Win win.

A reamer with a non-cutting belt would be an aid, or put Dykem in the belt recess of your chamber and do not alter the headspace.

 

[6.5 wildcatter]

hoytcannon,

setting the barrel back on an RSM is impractical because of the method used for the recoil lug bar design inletted into the stock. In addition modification of the barrel rib would also need to be modified. Lengthening the throat as suggested, is much more practical and certainly simpler and cheaper.

 

[hoytcanon]

hoytcannon,

setting the barrel back on an RSM is impractical because of the method used for the recoil lug bar design inletted into the stock. In addition modification of the barrel rib would also need to be modified. Lengthening the throat as suggested, is much more practical and certainly simpler and cheaper.

I guess guys are missing the "tongue in cheek" in that comment... who would ever go from Lott to WM???

 

[Riflecrank]

hoytcanon,
I guess you are missing the FACT that a .458 Winchester Magnum loaded to same pressure and COL as the .458 Lott will turn the Lott into a Loser.
Scientific FACT.
Physics does not lie.
Throat throat throat.
6.5 wildcatter gets it.
I get it.
You don't get it ?

 

[michael458]

I never met a 458 that I did not like...... some that I love........... I still have 2 Winchester M70s in 458 Lott left over from the old days...... One I shot several elephant with, the other a nice 22 inch gun, but both are way too big to tote around anymore, and really don't do anything my 458 B&Ms or 458 Winchester can't do....... And I need a rifle to go with the brass I have on hand anyway... LOL

First 458 love affair was 458 Winchester, still have that M70, shown above as the Lion Gun....... added a new one a couple of years ago, and its even better at 20 inches.......... 458 Winchester is just special. I am down to only two now.......

458 B&M, invented to be much smaller platform, but give 458 Winchester Performance, it does that job, and very well, and is a pleasure to use in the field with 18 inch barrel, my favorite is a Bastogne stocked 18 inch gun at 7.5 lbs and handy as hell....... I am nuts, I have at least 1/2 dozen of these, maybe more, even have one on a1885 single shot.......

45/70 is .458 and it is just dandy too, tiny little lever guns, incredible to tote around daily and if using proper bullet tech you can enhance them to do missions unheard of 20 years ago........

I even like the mighty 460 Weatherby, not because of the rifle, but OMG you can take that brass and make some incredible .500 and .510 caliber cartridges out of it, if you didn't have that brass, well you would have to use something less...........

I don't think I have any other 458 cartridges, the ones I have accomplish anything I need to, but I would probably like all of them, what is not to like about .458 caliber anything..........

Magic Starts at .458 caliber....................

 

[hoytcanon]

hoytcanon,
I guess you are missing the FACT that a .458 Winchester Magnum loaded to same pressure and COL as the .458 Lott will turn the Lott into a Loser.
Scientific FACT.
Physics does not lie.
Throat throat throat.
6.5 wildcatter gets it.
I get it.
You don't get it ?

Why so tense, darling?
I was joking due to your obsessive pissing on the Lott... I don't care which is superior, I appreciate cartridges for their own sake. Having said that, if you throat a Lott like you throat the WM, without restricting the OAL, the Lott "IS" superior to the WM... "PHYSICS does not lie."

 

[Riflecrank]

hoytcanon,

No need for you to call me darling for your own pleasure, I am not into that kind of stuff.
You may call me "Sir" or just "hey you" will do.

When CIP first homologated the .458 Lott pretender, they tacked the full SAAMI .458 WinMag throat
onto the chamber for 2.800" brass.
For some reason that did not last long after the SAAMI short-throated version came out.
CIP changed to match SAAMI.

SAAMI short throat .458 Lott allowed pressures and velocities to get up to 62,500 psi and 2250 fps with a 500-grain bullet and 3.600" COL.
SAAMI .458 WinMag was doing 60,000 psi and 2200 fps with same 500-grain bullet and 3.340" COL.
That was with same powders (minimal or no compression) in same barrel length of 24". Sure, the SAAMI .458 Lott twist was 1:10"
(an obvious sign of Art Alphin's A-Square shenannigans as a member of SAAMI)
while the SAAMI .458 WinMag has a twist of 1:14".
But that twist difference is insignificant.
Going from 1:14" to 1:7" has been found to cause less than one-half of one percent difference in velocity and pressure by military artillery studies.
Faster twist theoretically may increase pressure and decrease velocity,
I have .458 rifles of both 1:10" and 1:14" and no discernible effects.
I save the 1:18" and 1:20" rifles for being gentler on cast bullets.

If you use the original CIP long-throated .458 Lott in a bolt action rifle meant for 3.6" COL,
you are wasting effective case capacity of the long throat, and at same time imposing the pressure lowering effects of same throat.
You end up with a slow rifle.
Your supposed 2300 fps 500-grainer will not break 2200 fps MV.
I had one of those once, an early CZ 550 Magnum .458 Lott chambered at the factory with the earliest CIP reamer. Shot 500-grainers at about 2150 fps instead of the factory standard of 2250 fps.

It is really silly to take a 2.5" case meant for use in a 3.4" magazine length
then add 0.3" to brass length yet add only 0.2" to magazine length.
Use a 2.8" case in a 3.6" magazine. Ha ha.

The old standard bullet nose projections have to be shortened, bullets made more blunt, or the bullets seated more deeply, or drastically lightened by overall shortening of bullet,
or the brass trimmed short.
It is what it is, maybe some of it not a bad thing.

If you want to use a long-throated .458 Lott, you have to use a single shot to get full benefit.
And then you will probably have to change the powders, use more of a slower powder, get even greater recoil than what is generated by merely increasing bullet MV.

I think the optimum would be a 2.7" case in 3.6" magazine,
like the 2.5" case in a 3.4" magazine.
But even the 2.5"-cased SAAMI .458 WinMag can be loaded in the CZ 550 Magnum or Ruger No. 1
to a COL of 3.780" or 3.760" with a 500-grain TSX crimped in the 5th/last cannelure/groove on that bullet. Individual lots of that bullet have varied by about 0.020" in overall bullet length over the years.
2342 fps with that bullet was my top load in a SAAMI .458 Winchester Magnum chamber with 24-7/8" barrel length, CZ barrel on a Pre-'64 M70 .30-06 action.

The shorter 500-grain TBSS at 3.58" COL does +2400 fps in a 24" barreled Ruger No. 1, factory barrel.
That is a non-SAAMI handload called the .458 WM+ in a SAAMI .458 WinMag chamber.

.458 WinMag rifles X 6 and a 7th in the works
.458 B&M with throat lengthened = .458 B&M+ X 1
.458 Watts Express (.458 WM rechambered for 2.8" brass) X 1
.450 Barnes Supreme (like a .450 Ackley Magnum from the 1950s) X 1
.458/.416 Ruger wildcat X 1
.45-70 Elko Magnum (.45-100-2.6" Sharps with SAAMI .458 WinMag full throat tacked on) X 2
.450 NE 3-1/4" (rechambered .458 Lott stainless/laminate Ruger No. 1-H) X 1
.458/.338 Lapua Magnum (.460 Weatherby barrel set back and rechambered) X 1
.450 Dakota SIG Arms Magnum Mauser 98, Mauser Banner, Prechtl action X 1

The wood on the last one is too pretty to abuse, so I limit it to .458 WM+ equivalent loads.
It weighs 9.5 pounds unloaded, no scope, express sights only.
I have .458 WinMags that are field ready with scope, ammo, and sling that weigh less and are shorter in length.

That may be why I am working on my seventh SAAMI-chambered .458 Winchester Magnum that shoots .458 WM+ handloads,
or the standard Hornady factory ammo , 500-gr DGX-Bonded and DGS, that does 2140 fps from a 24" barrel.
My favorite handload is 400-gr to 404-gr bullet at +2500 fps and 3.38" COL.
Mild for 23" or 24" or 25" barrel lengths in SAAMI-chambered .458 WinMag.
My 7th .458 WinMag will have a 20" barrel to prove the load can be hotted up to 2500 fps in that barrel length: .458 WM+

 

[hoytcanon]

hoytcanon,

No need for you to call me darling for your own pleasure, I am not into that kind of stuff.
You may call me "Sir" or just "hey you" will do.

When CIP first homologated the .458 Lott pretender, they tacked the full SAAMI .458 WinMag throat
onto the chamber for 2.800" brass.
For some reason that did not last long after the SAAMI short-throated version came out.
CIP changed to match SAAMI.

SAAMI short throat .458 Lott allowed pressures and velocities to get up to 62,500 psi and 2250 fps with a 500-grain bullet and 3.600" COL.
SAAMI .458 WinMag was doing 60,000 psi and 2200 fps with same 500-grain bullet and 3.340" COL.
That was with same powders (minimal or no compression) in same barrel length of 24". Sure, the SAAMI .458 Lott twist was 1:10"
(an obvious sign of Art Alphin's A-Square shenannigans as a member of SAAMI)
while the SAAMI .458 WinMag has a twist of 1:14".
But that twist difference is insignificant.
Going from 1:14" to 1:7" has been found to cause less than one-half of one percent difference in velocity and pressure by military artillery studies.
Faster twist theoretically may increase pressure and decrease velocity,
I have .458 rifles of both 1:10" and 1:14" and no discernible effects.
I save the 1:18" and 1:20" rifles for being gentler on cast bullets.

If you use the original CIP long-throated .458 Lott in a bolt action rifle meant for 3.6" COL,
you are wasting effective case capacity of the long throat, and at same time imposing the pressure lowering effects of same throat.
You end up with a slow rifle.
Your supposed 2300 fps 500-grainer will not break 2200 fps MV.
I had one of those once, an early CZ 550 Magnum .458 Lott chambered at the factory with the earliest CIP reamer. Shot 500-grainers at about 2150 fps instead of the factory standard of 2250 fps.

It is really silly to take a 2.5" case meant for use in a 3.4" magazine length
then add 0.3" to brass length yet add only 0.2" to magazine length.
Use a 2.8" case in a 3.6" magazine. Ha ha.

The old standard bullet nose projections have to be shortened, bullets made more blunt, or the bullets seated more deeply, or drastically lightened by overall shortening of bullet,
or the brass trimmed short.
It is what it is, maybe some of it not a bad thing.

If you want to use a long-throated .458 Lott, you have to use a single shot to get full benefit.
And then you will probably have to change the powders, use more of a slower powder, get even greater recoil than what is generated by merely increasing bullet MV.

I think the optimum would be a 2.7" case in 3.6" magazine,
like the 2.5" case in a 3.4" magazine.
But even the 2.5"-cased SAAMI .458 WinMag can be loaded in the CZ 550 Magnum or Ruger No. 1
to a COL of 3.780" or 3.760" with a 500-grain TSX crimped in the 5th/last cannelure/groove on that bullet. Individual lots of that bullet have varied by about 0.020" in overall bullet length over the years.
2342 fps with that bullet was my top load in a SAAMI .458 Winchester Magnum chamber with 24-7/8" barrel length, CZ barrel on a Pre-'64 M70 .30-06 action.

The shorter 500-grain TBSS at 3.58" COL does +2400 fps in a 24" barreled Ruger No. 1, factory barrel.
That is a non-SAAMI handload called the .458 WM+ in a SAAMI .458 WinMag chamber.

.458 WinMag rifles X 6 and a 7th in the works
.458 B&M with throat lengthened = .458 B&M+ X 1
.458 Watts Express (.458 WM rechambered for 2.8" brass) X 1
.450 Barnes Supreme (like a .450 Ackley Magnum from the 1950s) X 1
.458/.416 Ruger wildcat X 1
.45-70 Elko Magnum (.45-100-2.6" Sharps with SAAMI .458 WinMag full throat tacked on) X 2
.450 NE 3-1/4" (rechambered .458 Lott stainless/laminate Ruger No. 1-H) X 1
.458/.338 Lapua Magnum (.460 Weatherby barrel set back and rechambered) X 1
.450 Dakota SIG Arms Magnum Mauser 98, Mauser Banner, Prechtl action X 1

The wood on the last one is too pretty to abuse, so I limit it to .458 WM+ equivalent loads.
It weighs 9.5 pounds unloaded, no scope, express sights only.
I have .458 WinMags that are field ready with scope, ammo, and sling that weigh less and are shorter in length.

That may be why I am working on my seventh SAAMI-chambered .458 Winchester Magnum that shoots .458 WM+ handloads,
or the standard Hornady factory ammo , 500-gr DGX-Bonded and DGS, that does 2140 fps from a 24" barrel.
My favorite handload is 400-gr to 404-gr bullet at +2500 fps and 3.38" COL.
Mild for 23" or 24" or 25" barrel lengths in SAAMI-chambered .458 WinMag.
My 7th .458 WinMag will have a 20" barrel to prove the load can be hotted up to 2500 fps in that barrel length: .458 WM+

Sorry, I only got a couple sentences into that and then tuned out... anyone have the readers digest version? Or is it still Lott = Loser, Win Mag = Champion of the World???

 

[6.5 wildcatter]

I guess guys are missing the "tongue in cheek" in that comment... who would ever go from Lott to WM?

Take away digest, 458 WM+ allows for lighter, shorter, handier DGRs than the Lott without performance penalty.

I started out this DGR heavy-cartridge route with a Ruger RSM 458 Lott - very well balanced for this cartridge but overweight - and found out that even with quite a bit of load development I couldn’t get to 2300 FPS MV easily. Sold that rifle - bad move. Also had a Dale Goens 458 WM which I foolishly traded for a now forgotten something or another. Bad move!

For a magnum action unbelted heavy cartridge I prefer either my Ruger RSM 450 Rigby Rimless or Win M-70 460 G&A. I don’t push the Rigby beyond 2400 FPS by choice because higher MVs with the CEBs merely result in pass through shots delivering more energy to mopane trees, and after all, dead is dead as far as I can tell. But it can easily handle more without excessive recoil or chamber pressure.

The 460 G&A is lighter with its Win M-70 Classic standard long action. Also produces a true 2400 FPS from a 23” barrel in a slightly trimmer package. The magazine box Gene Simillion fabricated and installed in it when he built the rifle holds 4 cartridges without drop belly stock protrusions. A functionally reliable and simply dependable DGR. Same performance as the 450 Rigby. Had I had this rifle built before I had the RSM done I would have probably kept the latter as a 416 Rigby. In some ways this is the analogue argument to the 458 WM vs 458 Lott. Significant difference is that either the G&A or the Rigby Rimless deliver the goods without a lot of extra effort. Good design tends to produce that result and the 404 Jeffery case is an enlightened design.

Don’t regret either choice but, as they say, live and, hopefully, learn.

 

[Grumpy gumpy]

This is a somewhat entertaining and educational thread, I’ll add that I like my winmag even if it shoves me around a bit.......bit like some women I’ve know.....
gumpy

 

[Riflecrank]

"Sorry, I only got a couple sentences into that and then tuned out... anyone have the readers digest version? Or is it still Lott = Loser, Win Mag = Champion of the World???" (hoytcanon quote)

hoytcanon,
Are you appealing to ignorance ?
Ignorance is bliss, eh ?

Here is your Readers' Digest version:

Just the facts M'am.