Accuracy issues with new factory ammo?

[Phil Giordano]

'Morning Gents
I discovered accuracy issues with some RWS cartridges, purchased a month ago.
A rifle I own, used to produce tight groups with a given factory ammo, now spread all over with the same brand and bullet.
I'm talking about RWS Evo, in my darling Sauer 8x68.
Everything else is tight, clean, and (apparently) ok. It could well be guilt of me or (orror) the optic, a Swar Z6i, but the fact is, since I switched from the old lot to this new one, everything changed.
To say : 7" even 8" groups at 200 mt, when it usually printed +/- 2" at the same distance.
I know of a couple friends of mine that have accuracy/consistency problems with another top quality European factory ammo in different calibers.
They support the opinion that in this time of difficult-to-find-everything, even top brands are reducing quality.
Don't know.
Sure, I will try other different brands/bulltes, but I am so disappointed, as those RWS used to do wonderfully in my rifle.
Any experience or opinion?

 

[Mike Van Horn]

I think in these times of shortages they have the same bullet, but may be forced to use a different powder, or primer. Just to get ammo on the shelf at all.

 

[Jäger_Ivo]

Exactly. Some powder manufacturers have a problem because they cannot use components from Russia. Several cartridges have different ballistics now.

 

[Phil Giordano]

This is umbelivable, you know, the cost of quality ammo (and components) is skyrocketing, and it seems to me, the quality is going straight down
So bad

 

[JimP]

Shots spreading all over the target is not going to be the powder or the bullets. If it is those two things your groups may open up but the odd of them spraying all over are quite slim.

I'm guessing that it is the scope or something with the rifle. My nephew went through this last year and fond that the crown of his rifle had been damaged somehow. Once the crown was taken care of the groups tightened right back up.

 

[kesha]

I used Barnes Vortex in my 308 and had terrible time with Red Hartebeest hunt and I was dumbfounded as that rifle had been very accurate so when I returned home I was looking at my spent brass and noticed some of the primers had a blue die or sealer around primers and others there was none.
So i looked through my supply and went to the range and sure enough they impacted different. So i will look before I buy if they have the blue die i won't buy them.

 

[JimP]

Groups opening up in one thing. Lets say your rifle shoots a 1" group with xyz ammo with lot number abc. Then you pick up some of the same ammo with a lot number of mno. It could quite likely cause your group to open up, lets say 6".

But if your 1" group shooting rifle all of a sudden starts shooting outside of that 6" range and are sprayed over the target odd are it is something else.

As I mentioned my nephew had a 7mm-08 that shot lights out with Barnes factory loaded bullets. Then all of a sudden he couldn't keep the shots on paper at 100 yards. He sent the rifle into Browning and they sent it back with a recommendation to purchase a new rifle. He tried a couple of different scopes on it also. He then took it into a gunsmith that was recommended and the smith cut a new crown on that rifle. It is now back down to 1/2" groups at 100 yards with that same ammo that was shooting all over the place.

 

[Phil Giordano]

Shots spreading all over the target is not going to be the powder or the bullets. If it is those two things your groups may open up but the odd of them spraying all over are quite slim.

I'm guessing that it is the scope or something with the rifle. My nephew went through this last year and fond that the crown of his rifle had been damaged somehow. Once the crown was taken care of the groups tightened right back up.

Sure, it could be the rifle or the scope. But I dubt because the set has never gone hunting in recent months, only target shooting, no damages at all, and problems started to show with the lot change. But I will (again) double check everything...

 

[S-3 Ranch]

The factories definitely mess around with components
we had a good streak of success with fast true to consist factory production
till the pandemic hit then they started selling crap again

.270 Winchester

 

[Albert GRANT]

I just went through this with a rifle yesterday. With my loads I was shooting the best I personally have ever done- .2" groups with a 30 cal. I then tried some factory ammo I got as an add on to another order, more for the brass than anything, and out of 40rds had 3 distinct groupings spreading across 8" and each group was 2.5-3". Went back to my hand loads and right back to tight groups. This is why I no longer shoot factory rifle ammo.

 

[cajunchefray]

The factories definitely mess around with components
we had a good streak of success with fast true to consist factory production
till the pandemic hit then they started selling crap again

.270 Winchester

This is definitely true. I have Hornady Factory ammo in 450/400 Nitro 3", from their original run (regulated in my double, circa 2015) then a couple of years ago (all over the board), and now recent purchase in the last year, more like the original regulation load.

The spec became the Powder Purchase, not the performance.

I checked powder charges by pulling factory bullets, and while they may attain the same muzzle velocity, the powder charges vary, but can still attain the same speed. The variable is the actual powder charge, recoil impulse and hence the POI.

In my profession, food processing, and food product development, companies change ingredients, processing, and finished product specs All the Time, as long as they are "within range."
What the hell that means, I don't know, but the Bean Counters establish their own tolerance.

I understand the pressures that manufacturers are under, with supply chain issues, labor, and costs inflation.

Just Tell US, YRMV.

 

[cajunchefray]

The factories definitely mess around with components
we had a good streak of success with fast true to consist factory production
till the pandemic hit then they started selling crap again

.270 Winchester

Yes, the corporate Bean Counters, (and I work in a segment selling cooked beans), tell us:

"Well it meets specs".
It meets the specs of their paychecks and bonus checks.

 

[JimP]

And this is why they tell you that if you ever change the load, be it factory or hand loaded that you need to resight in your rifle.

I got a heck of a buy on some Federal Premium 7mm Rem mag ammo years ago and I picked up a case of it, mostly for the brass and target shooting. They were all the same lot number so once I had my rifle sighted in with it I didn't worry for a number of years.

 

[Phil Giordano]

Me, I can confirm that - went this morning at the shooting range, shot some some rounds from a very old box of 8x68 RWS H Mantel 187 gr. (a very different bullet structure / weight / velocity from the RWS Evo 200 gr.). Group of 6 shot - 3+3 fast shooting - went in 1.3" @ 100 mt, with a Swar Z6 1/6.
The last lot of Evo printed at least 3 times this size, something so strange, as the previous Evo ammo

used to be awesome accurate.

 

[S-3 Ranch]

And this is why they tell you that if you ever change the load, be it factory or hand loaded that you need to resight in your rifle.

I got a heck of a buy on some Federal Premium 7mm Rem mag ammo years ago and I picked up a case of it, mostly for the brass and target shooting. They were all the same lot number so once I had my rifle sighted in with it I didn't worry for a number of years.

Yeah, my pet 300wm loved federal classic , so I bought a case of same lot # 180gr and never needed to buy it again
, now I buy only same lot # ammunition for the 270 and 308win
I know I am picky, but hell it’s worth it

 

[steve white]

Have had Hornady products very considerably

 

[Inline6]

Me, I can confirm that - went this morning at the shooting range, shot some some rounds from a very old box of 8x68 RWS H Mantel 187 gr. (a very different bullet structure / weight / velocity from the RWS Evo 200 gr.). Group of 6 shot - 3+3 fast shooting - went in 1.3" @ 100 mt, with a Swar Z6 1/6.
The last lot of Evo printed at least 3 times this size, something so strange, as the previous Evo ammo View attachment 525380used to be awesome accurate.

So it likes the 187 not the 200s? This is starting to sound a bullet stability issue. The twist rate might not support the longer 200gr bullets.

Have a friend that had a rem700 in 223. He told me it could not shoot 69gr bullets. I happened to have some ammo from 52, 55,64,68,69,77. I brought them all, had to see for myself. At 100 yards every was shooting under .5" groups. As soon as he put in the 69gr bullets he did not hit paper. So me being who I am. I asked if I could try, thought he was messing with me. I sent 5 rounds down range at 100 yards did not cut paper. I fired at the berm in the dirt. Bullet never hit it. We did not even try the 77s it was the damndest thing to witness.

Knowing some people in the business, manufacturers have had to blend powders to make things work. It is nothing they want to do, we demand ammo they are trying to work with what they have.

 

[Phil Giordano]

So it likes the 187 not the 200s? This is starting to sound a bullet stability issue. The twist rate might not support the longer 200gr bullets.

Have a friend that had a rem700 in 223. He told me it could not shoot 69gr bullets. I happened to have some ammo from 52, 55,64,68,69,77. I brought them all, had to see for myself. At 100 yards every was shooting under .5" groups. As soon as he put in the 69gr bullets he did not hit paper. So me being who I am. I asked if I could try, thought he was messing with me. I sent 5 rounds down range at 100 yards did not cut paper. I fired at the berm in the dirt. Bullet never hit it. We did not even try the 77s it was the damndest thing to witness.

Knowing some people in the business, manufacturers have had to blend powders to make things work. It is nothing they want to do, we demand ammo they are trying to work with what they have.

No, it has always liked the 200 Evo showing super small groups with them.
Problem is, with the actual production Evo ammo, the everage group is 3 or 4 times bigger than used to be.
I started to be worry about the scope, the mounts, the rifle, an so on.
But I found some old RWS 8x68 (the H Mantel 187) and even with them, the accuracy has been good. I waas forced to try the 187 due to the scarcity of other rounds, and also because I needed some "old production" ammunition to prove the difference from the actual ones.

 

[Inline6]

No, it has always liked the 200 Evo showing super small groups with them.
Problem is, with the actual production Evo ammo, the everage group is 3 or 4 times bigger than used to be.
I started to be worry about the scope, the mounts, the rifle, an so on.
But I found some old RWS 8x68 (the H Mantel 187) and even with them, the accuracy has been good. I waas forced to try the 187 due to the scarcity of other rounds, and also because I needed some "old production" ammunition to prove the difference from the actual ones.

Okay, that is good information. Normally I would say make sure the barrel is clean to metal and foul back in with the new ammo. Some bullets act funny if the jacket is not of the same material. If you have not done that it would be a good starting point. If you have, being where you are I'm not sure what you options are.

Reloading is what most do when they have a rifle that shoots and can no longer get good ammo from manufacturers. You can try other brands, I'm just not sure what the availability is in your part of the world.

 

[gillettehunter]

If you do any long range shooting or spend time on a forum devoted to such, you find out how much a change in components can affect groups. Some rifles shoot relatively well with a variety of bullets and powders. Others have their own "personality". They can be pretty particular. They may only like and shoot well a certain bullet with a particular powder. Even changing the primer can affect groups.
Some manufactures have had difficulty sourcing components. They may change a powder and yet still keep a similar velocity. In some rifles thats no big deal. Others won't shoot a decent group as a result of the change. When you find a load that your rifle likes it's a good idea to buy as much of that lot number as you can.
For those of us that reload we buy components. Some people I know buy enough of what their rifle likes to shoot out the barrel before they need more.
Bruce