A Push Feed Rifle Or A Control Round Feed Rifle?

Discussion in 'Articles' started by Kawshik Rahman, Nov 18, 2019.

  1. WAB

    WAB AH Elite

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    I have new design CRF M70’s in .243, 7x57, .325 WSM, .375 H&H and .457 Lott. All shoot sub moa, two shoot under 1/2 moa. This level of accuracy is relatively easy to get with the new design. Although attainable, IMO it was more difficult to achieve with the pre 64.

    The point of my original response was that I am in agreement with @RedLeg. The reliability of both PF and CRF bolt rifles is astounding.
     

  2. Kawshik Rahman

    Kawshik Rahman AH Elite

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    What an excellent choice . For dangerous game rifles , l am an advocate for the control round feed configuration myself . I have a soft spot for the French Brevex magnum mauser mechanism . Such a fine action .
    For non dangerous animals , l would personally be comfortable with either configuration , although the Mauser type extracting claw device is always a welcome feature.
     
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  3. Kawshik Rahman

    Kawshik Rahman AH Elite

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    I have only seen one my entire life.
    Our knowledgeable forum member and friend , @kurpfalzjäger owns one , calibrated for .460 Weatherby. A beautiful thing it is .
     

  4. kurpfalzjäger

    kurpfalzjäger AH Enthusiast

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    The Brevex Mauser system is a slightly modified Mauser system.
     
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  5. Kawshik Rahman

    Kawshik Rahman AH Elite

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    France’s greatest contribution to the sporting world was the Brevex.
    Some day , some one should start remaking them.
     
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  6. Bullthrower338

    Bullthrower338 AH ENABLER AH Legend

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  7. Kawshik Rahman

    Kawshik Rahman AH Elite

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    Thank you so much for the amazing photograph. I consider the Brevex to be the King of rifle "actions "
     
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  8. Pheroze

    Pheroze AH ENABLER AH Legend

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    Mr. Rahman, I would like to thank for the series of articles. They are very insightful! You also make me think of the hunting stories my father told me about in India...

    I love the Mauser action, particularly the Brno variety. The reason is mainly due to the incredible efficiency of design. It's simplicity and effectiveness is pure genius, as evidenced by its longevity. I am in no position to opine whether it is safer or not. But, I do take comfort in its basic design.
     
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  9. One Day...

    One Day... GOLD SUPPORTER AH Fanatic

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    Thank you for an always pleasurable read Kawshik Rahman.

    I tend to agree with Red Leg that the Mauser extractor vs. Remington extractor debate is one of these endless debates that is getting a little more confusing with every passing year. Not because it is obsolete, mind you, but mainly because people gradually forget the three benefits of the Mauser extractor system and generally over-simplify the debate by reducing it to a single issue of extraction power.

    In a way, your article itself illustrates this trend. It thoroughly discusses two characteristics: the issue of extraction and double feed, but it is silent on the issue of unintentional loading...

    Three characteristics of the CRF (controlled round feed) Mauser action

    When the German military commissioned the development of what became the Mauser 98, some of their specifications were:
    1. better extraction (a classic problem with earlier soft copper metallic cartridge casings and dirty black powder);
    2. no possibility of double feeding (a classic problem when not fully cycling the bolt under duress);
    3. no possibility of unintentionally loading the rifle (a classic issue when closing a push-feed action unknowingly on a loaded chamber).
    These were rational requests indeed, since #2 and #3 continue to happen with boring regularity with push-feed rifles to this day, and occasionally #1 continues to happen from time to time with dirty rifles or hand-loads over pressure.

    The famed Mauser "claw" extractor accomplished all three objectives:
    • By riding outside of the bolt and capturing the cartridge out of the magazine under the extractor and literally carrying it into the chamber, the bolt cannot unknowingly leave a cartridge in the chamber if it is retracted before it is closed. A push feed bolt will leave a cartridge in the chamber unless the bolt is actually closed on the cartridge and the extractor is snapped over the cartridge head to capture it. The external claw extractor captures the cartridge as it comes out of the magazine, before the bolt is closed. The claw extractor therefore makes it virtually impossible to double feed a second round behind the one already in the chamber because it cannot leave a round anywhere in the raceway or chamber after taking it out of the magazine.
    • To strengthen the extraction AND to prevent closing the bolt unknowingly on a loaded chamber Mauser designed a massive extractor that COULD NOT SNAP over a cartridge head. Repeat COULD NOT. The design was a very wide extractor, outside the bolt head, that was tightly maintained against the bolt head and the cartridge head by the internal wall of the front bridge of the action, without the mechanical possibility of snapping over the head either when extracting a stuck case, or closing the bolt over an unseen round in the chamber.
    Original Mauser military rifles have a non-beveled extractor that cannot, by design, snap over a cartridge head. They must be loaded from the magazine, hence the cartridges must be engaged under the extractor before they get to the chamber. NO possibility of double feed. NO possibility to close the rifle on an unseen cartridge already in the chamber. NO possibility of failed extraction, unless about a third of the cartridge head at a minimum is ripped out, which is uncommon.

    Misguided "modernization"

    Just like Browning misguidedly "modernized" (read: destroyed) the wonderful Mauser fixed blade ejector and bolt stop, as discussed by Red Leg, sadly, when Mauser actions reached the commercial market and became widely distributed to not-so-proficient and not-so-knowledgeable mass hunters, darn few sales people took the time to explain this to customers, or likely even knew it themselves, and darn few customers read the user's manual, or listen to 'manual of arm' explanations anyway. As a consequence, a number of folks started to complain that their bolt could not close...

    Manufacturers started to "fix" the "problem" and modernize (?) the design by beveling the extractor so that it could snap over a cartridge head and the bolt could always close. This creates stress on the extractor that was not designed to do this, and sooner or later the extractor will break. This also negates a wonderful safety feature of the original Mauser action (the impossibility to close the bolt on a loaded chamber and to unknowingly load the rifle). This also negates most of the fail-proof extraction capability of the action, although this is rarely a problem with modern ammo...

    And when butchering (sorry! I should have said beveling) the Mauser extractor made it incidentally possible to load one more cartridge in the chamber on top of a full magazine, another misguided practice took on a life of its own...

    The reason why it is a bad idea to snap the extractor over a cartridge head in the chamber, even those extractors machined from spring metal (never mind those cast from pot metal), is that the stress is applied to lift the extractor head away from the bolt head, which the entire design of the extractor was intended to prevent to begin with. Notice that the extractor's entire body is rounded to ride the round bolt. To snap over a cartridge head, the metal is asked to flex to the outside of the rounding radius. Never a good idea...

    That darned "one more round" syndrome...

    IvW and I, each in our own words, have explained several times how those who absolutely want one more round in the chamber should load it: load the magazine to capacity; control feed one round from the magazine into the chamber; engage the mechanical safety and point the rifle in a safe direction; flip the rifle upside down; open the floor plate; drop one more cartridge in the magazine well; close the floor plate. That is the ONLY way it can be done without damaging the extractor. How important is one more round to each one of us, each one will judge for themselves.

    People who owns a rifle with a 3 round magazine capacity likely have a better case to make than people who own a rifle with 6 round magazine capacity, but in any case, it is a mistake to load that one more round by snapping an external claw extractor over it in the chamber.

    So, how relevant is the Mauser action today?
    • Extraction: The large "Mauser" extractor offers more surface contact on a cartridge case head that any other type of extractor. It is a fact. And I will hasten to add that - to me - this is likely the least important characteristic as extraction failures are relatively rare with modern rifles and modern cartridges. In a worst case scenario a Mauser extractor can fail to extract by ripping the rim or the entire head out of a stuck cartridge. People who let their chamber rust and who overload their hand-loads can make something like that happen with a Mauser extractor. There is a limit to what clever engineering can do to overcome human stupidity... How real is the Mauser extraction advantage to each one of us, each one will judge for themselves.
    • Double feed: Any push feed action, including the most modern ones, among which stands the beloved R8, can produce a double feed jam. A true controlled round feed action such as the Mauser and derivative (Winchester 70, ZKK 602/CZ 550), but also the Steyr Mannlicher Luxus (circa 1980's) or the Sako 85, etc. can essentially not produce a double feed jam. How important is this feature to each one of us, each one will judge for themselves, but this is a fact.
    • Unintentional loading: Any push feed action, including the most modern ones, among which stands the beloved R8, can produce an unintentional loading if the action is closed on an unseen cartridge in the chamber. A true controlled round feed action will not leave a cartridge it carried into the chamber when the bolt is pulled back, and a true Mauser action with beveled extractor cannot close the bolt on a round in the chamber. Misguidedly beveled extractors will at least resist closing as they snap over the cartridge head... How important is this feature to each one of us, each one will judge for themselves, but this is a fact.
    What I can tell you is that as already related in another discussion on CRF (
    https://www.africahunting.com/threa...ag-vs-cz550-458-lott.51054/page-4#post-555947) four years ago in the Eastern Cape one person inadvertently loaded a gun in a discussion about cartridge length by pushing into the chamber the one cartridge that was in the magazine; forgot about it in the flow of the discussion; and handed the rifle, bolt open, to someone else who, seeing no cartridge in the magazine or the raceway, believed the rifle was empty, but in fact closed the bolt on the loaded chamber and put the rifle on the back seat of the truck. The next person who grabbed the gun from the back seat depressed the trigger while doing so, and the gun fired. One woman died. I personally know the people involved, this is a true story. Of course there was a long list of gun safety violations along the way, but a CRF action would likely have prevented them from resulting in a death. A CRF bolt would have been carrying that cartridge back out of the chamber even if the bolt had not been closed during gun manipulation. THAT is the primary benefit of a CRF on a hunting gun.

    My own view point...

    So in conclusion, and to answer your question Kawshik Rahman.
    • I am personally not overly concerned about the extraction discussion.
    • I do believe that the double feed jam prevention is a nice feature, for beginners as well as pros.
    • Having had the sad privilege of witnessing in my past military life, and shooting competitor life, a few accidental discharges (thankfully no one was hurt, but it was deeply shocking!) I personally like a lot this almost forgotten characteristic of the true Mauser action: it is very difficult to load one unintentionally. The extractor will not leave a cartridge in the raceway or the chamber; a non-beveled Mauser extractor cannot close on a cartridge in the chamber; and even a misguidedly beveled extractor will resist somewhat closing the bolt .
    For CRF owners out there who see value on the point I am making, if the extractor was beveled on your CRF action (Win 70, Montana, Mauser 98, Santa Barbara, Zastava, etc. clones, ZKK 602, CZ 550, etc.) and if it can snap over a cartridge head, therefore negating most of its extraction power, and negating the safety feature of not being able to close on a cartridge inadvertently left in the chamber, you can fix this easily by purchasing a non-beveled extractor and replacing it. True gunsmith legends to this day do not bevel their extractors, an I am curious to ask Red Leg, if in your modern Stalker, Rigby/Mauser sacrificed to the market fashion and beveled the extractor or maintained the true Mauser functionality with an unbeveled extractor that cannot close over a round in the chamber?

    Much apology for such a long post. Those uninterested likely did not read it. Those interested hopefully found value in it :)
     
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2019

  10. mark-hunter

    mark-hunter AH Fanatic

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    O, man,
    when I think of so many manufacturers today, giving rifle specs on their catalogues and web pages, being PF or CRF, on magazine capacity 4+1, 5+1.... etc, they don't actually help on gun culture really.

    @One Day...
    Great post, thanks for indepth overview, and some points I was not aware of, earlier!
     
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  11. Kawshik Rahman

    Kawshik Rahman AH Elite

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    Thank you so much for your kind words and support. I prefer control round feed configuration rifle for anything which can hunt you back , bit l will readily acknowledge that a push feed configuration rifle is perfectly acceptable.
     

  12. IvW

    IvW AH Legend

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    Personally I prefer CRF (In my case Brno ZKK602).

    For a visiting client it is best he/she brings a rifle cartridge combination they are familiar with and can place the first shot where it needs to go, irrespective of action type used. In the event of a incident or failure the PH will be right there to sort out the issue(on the animal concerned). 99.9 % of the time if hunting DG the PH will have a CRF bolt rifle or DB rifle.

    For PG obviously it is less of an issue or discussion point.
     
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  13. Kawshik Rahman

    Kawshik Rahman AH Elite

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    No apology necessary. The entire purpose of these articles is to encourage healthy discussion among forum members.
    Even though l am admittedly a little provincial in my views , it is pleasant to see that you and l agree largely .
    You make an excellent point about prevention of unintended loading . I was writing in such detail about the extraction issues and the double feeding , that l COMPLETELY overlooked mentioning about the issue of accidental loading . If anything l am the one who should apologize for not picking up on this crucial bit. It is always a pleasure to have enhancements made to one's existing view , One day. It allows us to adapt to the philosophy of others and approach such discussions with an open mind , keen to learn more.
    However , you have indeed detailled one more virtue of the control round feed .
    Regarding the increased cartridge capacity in one's magazine , l am also inclined to agree with you . An extra cartridge can be the proverbial " game changer " at times , so only the owner of the rifle in question can make that decision .
    Were to l choose two rifles today ( one for non dangerous animals and one for dangerous animals ) , then my heavy rifle would be a .375 Holland and Holland magnum calibre rifle built on our mutually adored Brevex mechanism .
    The lighter rifle ; l think quite highly of a Remington model 700 calibrated for the 7 millimeter Remington magnum cartridge or a Winchester model 70 , calibrated for the .270 Winchester cartridge . For the lighter rifle , l would have no hesitation using a push feed configuration rifle at all .
    For the heavier dangerous game rifle , l personally would opt for control round feed configuration , but as our learned forum member , Red Leg points out , a push feed configuration rifle would be perfectly acceptable today .

    I look forward to having more insight from you on my future articles as well . It is a pleasure to have your insight and no writing is too long , if it is good writing , such as yours .
     

  14. Kawshik Rahman

    Kawshik Rahman AH Elite

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    You and l are of IDENTICAL view in this.
    From a professional Shikari point of view , l am in agreement with you. For dangerous animals , being the professional Shikari / White Hunter , we would benefit from the added insurance of a control round feed configuration rifle ( My personal favorite being a .375 Holland and Holland magnum built on the French Brevex magnum mauser mechanism ) .
    For non dangerous animals, l think a push feed configuration rifle would be perfectly acceptable and l think rather highly of the 7 millimeter Remington magnum cartridge in the Remington model 700 rifle for this task .
    For a client , even using a push feed configuration rifle for dangerous animals is perfectly acceptable , as their task is to shoot an undisturbed beast and make the first shot get placed correctly . A White Hunter , on the other hand , must deal with an enraged animal in a more highly stressful situation .
     

  15. tunatoy76

    tunatoy76 AH Member

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    My Montana,FN Mauser and 98 7x57 all have bevelled extractors. Don't think I have seen one without a bevel as its needed to clear the case. Doesn't the new m70's handbook say something about about closing it over a cartridge? I read somewhere that mrc say to do the same, can't remember where though. Has anyone experienced a broken extractor on a m70 classic or MRC? If the manufacturer provides the procedure in the handbook it must be okay. 266236512.jpg
     
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  16. One Day...

    One Day... GOLD SUPPORTER AH Fanatic

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    Brevex, a short history...

    In 1945, French troops participated to the invasion of Germany and occupied the Mauser factory in Oberndorf. Mauser machinery was disassembled and confiscated by France as war damages compensation and transferred to Suresnes in the suburbs of Paris to the Brevex company. Under Chief Engineer Polonsky, Brevex manufactured standard K98 rifles that were issued to French troops in Indochina in the immediate after WWII years, approximately from 1946 to 1950.

    After Brevex shifted briefly the production of military rifles to under-license Garand, and when the French national arsenals resumed mass production with the MAS 1949 (followed by the MAS 49/56, both very solid semi auto, full caliber, combat rifles), Brevex started producing long and magnum length actions in 1955 for the civilian market. These Brevex actions were 99% pure Mauser actions, produced on original Mauser machine tools, with a few distinctive Polonsky-patented touches. For example, Brevex actions are instantly recognizable because (to the best of my knowledge) they are the only ones to have a vent hole drilled on the left side of the front bridge, and the shape of their trigger guard is unique with a slanted front side.

    Brevex never made full rifles (to the best of my knowledge), but in the 1950's, 1960's, etc. when Mauser had entirely abandoned the 98 action as obsolete, and when the ZKK/CZ actions were locked behind the iron curtain, the Brevex actions were the only CRF actions available for .416 Rigby length cartridge. A number of makers (including Rigby in London) used standard length military actions, of which they removed about half the length of the feeding ramp to lengthen the magazine well (Harry Selby's famed .416 Rigby was one of these); other custom makers actually cut two standard length actions to weld a long one together, etc. but Brevex was the real deal and the only deal. For example, Jack O'Connor's .416 Rigby was built on a Brevex action.

    About 5,000 Brevex actions in two lengths (long and magnum) were made before production ended, I am not sure exactly when, but I believe around 1965. In 1998 a gun shop in Paris, Armes Batille, acquired the trade name and patent and offered for a while Brevex rifles assembled by Gunsmith Arnaud Lafont, but I have no idea where they were built and by whom. I doubt very much that the Mauser machine tools confiscated in 1945 and used by Brevex still exist... I have not heard of these "new" Brevex for the last 20 years, so I suspect that the effort fizzled.

    [​IMG]

    A few Brevex actions, and custom rifles built on Brevex actions come for sale with relative regularity in the US. Right now there are two actions for sale on Guns International, one with .375 bolt face and one with .416 Rigby bolt face for $2,795 and $2,895 respectively.

    upload_2019-11-18_23-6-27.png
    https://www.gunsinternational.com/g...-416-rigby-mauser-action.cfm?gun_id=101294001

    Champlin Firearms offer a nice Brevex-based rifle by George Hoenig:
    upload_2019-11-18_23-5-34.png
    http://www.champlinarms.com/Default.aspx?tabid=30&ctl=GunsDetails&mid=409&StyleID=2&GunID=2838
     

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  17. mark-hunter

    mark-hunter AH Fanatic

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    Dear Pascal,
    Thank you for following up on my comment!
     
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  18. One Day...

    One Day... GOLD SUPPORTER AH Fanatic

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    This is a common misconception tunatoy76, and you are entirely right: for the extractor to fit in the cartridge head's groove it must be beveled. But this is not THIS bevel we are discussing here:

    upload_2019-11-18_23-54-35.png
    The photo comes from Rifle Shooter magazine (the added text and red lines are mine), and I find the caption most interesting:
    "At the heart of the CZ 550 is its Mauser-style action complete with dual locking lugs up front and a full-length, non-rotating extractor. Many Mauser 98s require loading of the cartridge into the internal magazine and then pushing the bolt forward to chamber a round. CZ has designed its extractor so that it will slip overtop of the rim of the cartridge case when a cartridge is loaded into the chamber. The front of the extractor slides into position on the cartridge case and will function properly, whereas most Mauser actions will not." (https://www.rifleshootermag.com/editorial/review-cz-550-carbine-kevlar/83525).

    If I interpret correctly (?) apparently the reviewer seems to considers the ability of the extractor to snap over the cartridge case to be a plus...

    I beg to differ...

    As can be seen with my red lines illustration, the "side bevel" of the extractor provides the space for the extractor head to be flexed away from the bolt head when the "front bevel" of the extractor slides and snaps over the cartridge head, but it is not hard to visualize the stress that the extractor body must withstand just ahead of the bolt tenon when this happens...

    For further illustration, the following picture shows an original Mauser extractor on the left and a Ruger extractor on the right. One can see that the Mauser extractor is rounded at the end for smooth operation but it is not beveled along the side as is the Ruger. Of course, the differences are minute because the extractor "only" needs to flex away from the bolt head about 1/32" (0.8 mm) to snap over the cartridge head, but it is enough to often break it after a couple hundred cycles

    upload_2019-11-19_0-2-55.png
    https://www.rifleshootermag.com/editorial/gunsmithing_rsperfect_102605/84525

    This Winchester 70 extractor is clearly not beveled:
    upload_2019-11-19_0-41-6.png
    https://gundigest.com/rifles/bolt-action-rifles-push-feed-vs-controlled-feed
     
    Last edited: Nov 19, 2019
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  19. tunatoy76

    tunatoy76 AH Member

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    How many have you seen break?
     
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  20. mark-hunter

    mark-hunter AH Fanatic

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    So, far we have identified one case of extractor breaking. This was mauser type rifle belonging to a client of mr Rahman.
     
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