A Hunt For Gold Colour Variant Animals To Hunt Or Not

[KWALATA SAFARIS]

It will take allot of looting to gather that amount...

Not again Spike!

 

[spike.t]

It will take allot of looting to gather that amount...

Not again Spike!

 

[Flippie]

Sorry for my ignorance but are these colour variation African species naturally occurring are they a product of human intervention/manipulation for profit?

John

Hi John

The genetic "code" for colour variation is naturally occuring and Golden Gemsbok and Golden Wildebeest are known to have occured naturally in Namibia and Botswana respectively (although in small numbers) and black and white springbok have been recorded as far back as 1886 in South Africa.
But now you can start a debate on whether intentionally breeding white springbok with black springbok, with the goal of creating a mix between the two can still be called naturally occuring.

 

[Flippie]

I don't know how sporting any of these transported sables and golden wildebeest are, but free range color variant springbok are for darn sure as skittish as the normal type.

I want to throw something out here. Shot a big blue wildebeest in the East Cape in May. Now he is completely mature and his incisors were worn down to the gum. What do you think:
View attachment 29921 Keep in mind, this was a free range bull out of a herd with black faced bulls, fully hard bases, quite old but he never turned color all the way. These weren't recently stocked and were spooky as hell. Any thoughts?

Hi broncolcj

What I've noticed with most colour variant animals is that the colour they eventually express is a colour that is already present on the "normal" animal at some point. E.g. black springbok are actually just all over their bodies the chocolate brown colour of the sidestripe on a "normal" springbok. As Jaco said with blue wildebeest the golden colour does occur on them at some stage of their lives and may or may not go away as they grow older. It is often present on the head, mane or beard and often you will notice the legs are also lighter (golden) than the rest of the body; so in this case also the "golden" coloured hairs are already present on the animal and with a Golden Wildebeest the golden hairs just occur predominantly instead of the black hairs.

 

[Flippie]

Wow, thanks for all the replies so far everyone, I will try and answer some of statements and questions and post some info generated by my research later, I don't want to say to much that could possibly influence people's own opinions about colour variants.

 

[Johnny7604]

Again forgive my ignorance but is there a complete list of which species are being called into question? I have seen a few mentioned in this thread.

I must say after reading all this I am a little torn on the subject. I mean on one hand I think it is not a bad idea to preserve a naturally occurring colour variant of a species. However on the other hand by using inbreeding etc... at what point is it still natural.

I guess another question would be if they weren't worth so much would game ranchers even bother to do what they are doing at which point would these naturally occurring genes eventually mostly fade out of existence or would they remain?

I find this debate fascinating to be honest.

 

[ActionBob]

Johnny;
It is a very interesting and very emotionally charged subject. And full of lots of opinions, and only some facts.... As I mentioned earlier. I can really appreciate Jaco's comment which I find brutally honest but not wrapped in the suspicion wrought by misunderstanding. He is obviously an educated man who has his opinions. <quote"I do not fear for the original species at all, but rather have a dislike in the practice of game breeding...">

So to answer your questions;

Perhaps Flippie could post a complete list?

Your next question is the one that really gets me charged up.... All these genes are naturally occurring. Line breeding is merely an effort to more fully propagate the genetics in question. There is no "un-natural" insertion of genes being discussed here. Gene spicing technology exists as do "transgenic" animals. That is a heavily debated question, and rightly so... It even gets religious. There have been cattle created in the US that the government ordered incinerated! This would be along the lines of taking zebra genes and inserting them into a giraffe to create a striped giraffe. This is some wild science with huge implications. For example, in labs they use mice to do transgenic testing and have actually been able to create mice that would produce valuable vaccines in their milk. (yes they actually have milking machines for mice!) You can imagine a mouse may produce a few drops per day... Put that technology into a cow, or a herd of cows, and you can create truck loads per day! And I believe it goes way past vaccines. This and other technology has the potential to save millions of human lives. However, how do you feel about inserting human DNA into a mouse, or a cow???? Gets pretty sticky in my mind and I like to think I'm pretty understanding and open minded. I'm glad I don't have to make that decision!

On a simpler note; We use semen sorting technology to produce 90% female offspring from our best dairy cattle. Nothing changing the genetics, purely a production and financial tool. Eventually the consumer wins because of increased production ability, thus increased supply, equalling lower cost. However, if you can do it for cows, you can do it for humans... Is the human race ready to make these decisions? You might think there is no harm in a married couple with 3 girls deciding to use a little science to have a 90% chance of having a boy.... However you may also argue that is nature's or God's role to decide that. And what if so many people used the technology that it throws off the balance of boys and girls in an entire society? Could easily happen. What about gene mapping and the potential to remove or add traits, we could potentially eliminate genetically passed on ailments, heck even high cholesterol, and on the other hand we could create super soldiers. So to me a little line breeding of some Gemsbok is pretty harmless. The debates will go on! (sorry, , I could go on and on but I'm veering to far from the hunting theme.)

I think Flippie could better answer some of your questions but read what he says about white and black springbuck.... And by looking at the prices for them it is an indication they are pretty common... I would also like to know more about the copper springbuck and how common they are. I hunted and got a fine black springbuck and would like to get a white and copper to complete the set... That is as far as I plan to go hunting these color variations, maybe a white blesbuck but I'm no big fan of those.

I doubt very much that the traits in question in the more common occurrences (such as springbuck and white blesbuck) would fade out without intervention. Unless they were "shot out" but I suspect if they were in danger of that, a quota would be put on...... And honestly part of what we are talking about is a self imposed and enforced quota by capitalism..... They are bred to make money, plain and simple. But under this system and with good business managers who look ahead, the more rare they are, the more expensive they get. And likewise as they become more plentiful, the price will decrease... I think for most hunters, price regulates what we shoot. For example Springbuck can be challenging and fun to hunt, and you can likely shoot 2 or 3 commons for the price of one white. As per Flippie's explanation, it sounds like the blue wildebeest always have some of the gold color in them, but vary in how much it is expressed or endures as they age. So doubtful gene that would "fade".

 

[Johnny7604]

I must say I am absolutely glued to this thread. I am trying to imagine what it would be like if the same were to occur over here with species such as black bear and wolf for example. I know alot of people who would give their left nut to have a crack at a color phase black bear or a black wolf for example. To the best of my knowledge however I have never seen an outfitter who would charge a premium to harvest one. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, I just haven't seen it.

That being said from what I have seen North America and Africa are two different worlds when it comes to the hunting industry, game management and land ownership.

To me a species is a species and I certainly would never pay more to harvest one that is a different color however if I was out hunting and saw a big black bruin standing right next to a similar sized cinnamon colored buddy I'm pretty sure I would have a cinnamon colored rug being done up by the taxidermist.

For myself this is part of the allure of hunting, you never know what you might get a crack at. It would take a great deal of enjoyment out of a hunt for me knowing that if a once in a lifetime trophy steps out in front of me that I have to check the price tag first to see if it falls into a different pricing tier because the golden hairs outnumber the black ones or the antlers/horns are three inches longer than I budgeted for.

All my opinions aside though that is what the hunting industry is and everyone is entitled to try and make the best of what they have. If there weren't wealthy folk out there willing to pay the premium prices we wouldn't be having this wonderful debate.

Keep the info coming this is great stuff.

 

[AfricaHunting.com]

Some threads on the subject:

- RUNAWAY GAME PRICES – AN ECONOMIC BUBBLE WITH MAJOR CONSERVATION RISKS?: http://www.africahunting.com/thread...c-bubble-with-major-conservation-risks.16381/

- South Africa: Game Price Stampede: http://www.africahunting.com/threads/south-africa-game-price-stampede.12491/

- Is this the Future of Cape Buffalo Hunting?: http://www.africahunting.com/threads/is-this-the-future-of-cape-buffalo-hunting.9210/

 

[Flippie]

Again forgive my ignorance but is there a complete list of which species are being called into question? I have seen a few mentioned in this thread.

I must say after reading all this I am a little torn on the subject. I mean on one hand I think it is not a bad idea to preserve a naturally occurring colour variant of a species. However on the other hand by using inbreeding etc... at what point is it still natural.

I guess another question would be if they weren't worth so much would game ranchers even bother to do what they are doing at which point would these naturally occurring genes eventually mostly fade out of existence or would they remain?

I find this debate fascinating to be honest.

Johnny;
It is a very interesting and very emotionally charged subject. And full of lots of opinions, and only some facts.... As I mentioned earlier. I can really appreciate Jaco's comment which I find brutally honest but not wrapped in the suspicion wrought by misunderstanding. He is obviously an educated man who has his opinions. <quote"I do not fear for the original species at all, but rather have a dislike in the practice of game breeding...">

So to answer your questions;

Perhaps Flippie could post a complete list?

Your next question is the one that really gets me charged up.... All these genes are naturally occurring. Line breeding is merely an effort to more fully propagate the genetics in question. There is no "un-natural" insertion of genes being discussed here. Gene spicing technology exists as do "transgenic" animals. That is a heavily debated question, and rightly so... It even gets religious. There have been cattle created in the US that the government ordered incinerated! This would be along the lines of taking zebra genes and inserting them into a giraffe to create a striped giraffe. This is some wild science with huge implications. For example, in labs they use mice to do transgenic testing and have actually been able to create mice that would produce valuable vaccines in their milk. (yes they actually have milking machines for mice!) You can imagine a mouse may produce a few drops per day... Put that technology into a cow, or a herd of cows, and you can create truck loads per day! And I believe it goes way past vaccines. This and other technology has the potential to save millions of human lives. However, how do you feel about inserting human DNA into a mouse, or a cow???? Gets pretty sticky in my mind and I like to think I'm pretty understanding and open minded. I'm glad I don't have to make that decision!

On a simpler note; We use semen sorting technology to produce 90% female offspring from our best dairy cattle. Nothing changing the genetics, purely a production and financial tool. Eventually the consumer wins because of increased production ability, thus increased supply, equalling lower cost. However, if you can do it for cows, you can do it for humans... Is the human race ready to make these decisions? You might think there is no harm in a married couple with 3 girls deciding to use a little science to have a 90% chance of having a boy.... However you may also argue that is nature's or God's role to decide that. And what if so many people used the technology that it throws off the balance of boys and girls in an entire society? Could easily happen. What about gene mapping and the potential to remove or add traits, we could potentially eliminate genetically passed on ailments, heck even high cholesterol, and on the other hand we could create super soldiers. So to me a little line breeding of some Gemsbok is pretty harmless. The debates will go on! (sorry, , I could go on and on but I'm veering to far from the hunting theme.)

I think Flippie could better answer some of your questions but read what he says about white and black springbuck.... And by looking at the prices for them it is an indication they are pretty common... I would also like to know more about the copper springbuck and how common they are. I hunted and got a fine black springbuck and would like to get a white and copper to complete the set... That is as far as I plan to go hunting these color variations, maybe a white blesbuck but I'm no big fan of those.

I doubt very much that the traits in question in the more common occurrences (such as springbuck and white blesbuck) would fade out without intervention. Unless they were "shot out" but I suspect if they were in danger of that, a quota would be put on...... And honestly part of what we are talking about is a self imposed and enforced quota by capitalism..... They are bred to make money, plain and simple. But under this system and with good business managers who look ahead, the more rare they are, the more expensive they get. And likewise as they become more plentiful, the price will decrease... I think for most hunters, price regulates what we shoot. For example Springbuck can be challenging and fun to hunt, and you can likely shoot 2 or 3 commons for the price of one white. As per Flippie's explanation, it sounds like the blue wildebeest always have some of the gold color in them, but vary in how much it is expressed or endures as they age. So doubtful gene that would "fade".

Hi Johnny and Bob

I'm still going to stay away from discussing it too much, because for my research I need YOUR opinions and I don't want to influence your thinking. But I will try and answer your questions and attempt (because there are just so many different variants and there is constantly new ones being introduced to the market) making a list.

Concerning the genes remaining in the antelope populations, it is very unlikely that any of these variants will disappear completely even if they were no longer actively bred because it is now so widely spread all over SA, and in the case of springbok it is highly likely that the "more natural" trek bokke (migrating bucks) have interbred with these animals where they have moved through farms that have colour variants, but in the same breath increasingly fences are being erected that do not allow any movement of animals, so the trek bokke don't come through anymore (increasing the genetic variation in populations) and the isolated fenced in animals do not have any real alternative than inbreeding unless well managed. Thus in both ways the colour variant genetics is being propagated through most springbok (and the other antelope species) populations with the exception of nature reserves and a those game farmers that disagree with the breeding of colour variant animals. To go further you now have additional if/but/maybe situations, e.g. the copper or coffee springbok colour is well suited to the environment (i.e. they don't stand out like the white or black animals), and are now occurring in increasingly large herds and these herds would probably be able to survive (thus passing on the genes) and evade predators since they can now make use of the confusion/dilution effect (large groups confuse predators) as part of their anti predator strategy. But then you can ask the question would they ever have survived whilst they where the "odd ones out" (easy target for predators) under more natural conditions?

Bob you are going to need a lot more animals to complete the springbok set, see below. But the copper animals use to be scarce but now I see them on many game farms and at most auctions, the prices are still relatively high though.

Johnny in a later post you make the statement that the different coloured once in a lifetime animal is alluring (and it should be, and I hope nature continues to surprise us with what it can produce) but to you as a hunter would it still be alluring knowing that right now, with most these colour variants, there are herds with tens or hundreds of these animals on someones farm? Because this is an important point I am trying to get more info on, i.e. once all the breeders have established their breeding herds, and can't sell to other breeders anymore, will there be anyone who wants to buy such an animal? The idea is that yes there will be some, but is the money to be made from them enough reason to potentially cause serious harm to the animals themselves (think of the problems associated with many dog/cat breeds, and we simply don't know what secondary effects might be associated with the colour) and to the image of hunting and also eco-tourism in South Africa?

Now for the list (I may miss a couple of variants), keep in mind with all of these animals there are also so called split animals they appear normal but have colour a variant parent:

Springbok:
white,
black,
copper,
coffee,
pied/painted,
king,
blue/silver,
cream/caramel,
Three colour candy, (has silver,brown and cream colouration)

Blesbok:
white,
yellow,
saddle back,
copper,
painted,
red,

Blue Wildebeest/Gnu:
Golden Wildebeest
Kings Wildebeest

Gemsbok/Oryx:
golden,
cardinal,
white,
painted,
black

Impala:
black,
saddle back,
white,

Eland:
White

Kudu:
white,
black

Nyala:
red

Waterbuck:
white

Non antelope colour variants:
Golden Zebra
White ostrich
Black and white ostrich
White lion
King Cheetah
White Tigers (not South African, but they do breed them here)
Black Leopard (occurs naturally in Mpumalanga and Limpopo Provinces of SA, not specifically bred so far as I know)

 

[BRICKBURN]

…. I know alot of people who would give their left nut to have a crack at a color phase black bear or a black wolf for example. .……..

Don't give them ideas man.
"Left nuts are costly"
We now have "success fees" creeping into hunting here. Now talking about premiums for colour of bears and wolves, Ahhhhh.
I am beginning to think hunters are crazy.

 

[ActionBob]

Hi Johnny and Bob
(think of the problems associated with many dog/cat breeds, and we simply don't know what secondary effects might be associated with the colour)

Flippie;
Thanks for the list, I had no idea it was so extensive! You have me enthralled with everything going on in RSA... I might need to spend several months there at some point when I retire.

I'm trying hard to imagine a situation in the animals you listed where it would mimic the situation with dogs and cats and having a very hard time making the comparison. All I can come up with is Labrador dogs.

Please correct me if I am wrong, but we are really discussing color variations, not type, shape, size, length of body, legs, face shape, tail length etc.

I believe with dogs and cats, which have been influenced by human breeding decisions for literally millennia, the problems come in when mixing and matching many different breeds of various shapes and sizes. And breeding excessive shape and function "abnormalities?" such as a pug nose that may cause inherent sinus problems, etc.

I would liken this to crossing a zebra with a Clydesdale horse or something along that line. So please enlighten me as to how the comparison to color variants is relevant.

In order to avoid continually only referencing dairy cattle (such as red and black Holsteins, sorry), wouldn't the comparison be more along the lines of black, yellow, chocolate Labrador dogs? They are all Labradors, just different colors... They are all going to be great swimmers and equipped to be in the water, all want to naturally fetch things, and all going to be susceptible to the same potential hip problems associated with the breed.

If you want to research comparable situations to the color variations of antelope, would it not be appropriate to study the more available data on color variations of various cattle as a reference than specifically bred type traits that change the shape of animals? Red and black angus would be another example.

 

[BRICKBURN]

…….
And what if so many people used the technology that it throws off the balance of boys and girls in an entire society? Could easily happen..

All you have to do is legislate one child for population control and apparently you can make lots of girl babies disappear!

I doubt very much that the traits in question in the more common occurrences (such as springbuck and white blesbuck) would fade out without intervention. …….

I would be interested to see if the animals themselves would select the variants as mates or not. They might just reduce themselves naturally.

 

[ActionBob]

Hey Brickburn;
So you don't think a white springbuck would find the bootie on a black one to be sexy?

 

[BRICKBURN]

Hey Brickburn;
So you don't think a white springbuck would find the bootie on a black one to be sexy?

After watching Pronghorn Antelope for endless hours during the rut I have wondered exactly what trait it is that is driving the breeding.
I always assumed the biggest horns would be the winner. However, I have seen a really aggressive smaller buck chase every other buck out of the country, including several that by shear horn size should have been able to trash him.

I would be interested to find out exactly what they would be attracted to.

We get the occasional white Moose, Deer or Elk in the wild. But, I have never seen herds of them. So, something does not work for them in the "natural" world.

 

[ActionBob]

I'm sure there are not more white critters because they are recessive genes. And they are probably easier targets for predators. Are the color variants in Wolves more common?

As for the Pronghorn, some say it actually is not so much the size of the horn but how well it is used

 

[BRICKBURN]

I'm sure there are not more white critters because they are recessive genes. And they are probably easier targets for predators. Are the color variants in Wolves more common?

As for the Pronghorn, some say it actually is not so much the size of the horn but how well it is used

There are plenty of colours of wolves up here. They don't seem to care about colour.

 

[enysse]

You can see a white wolf in the artic miles away without the snow .

 

[KWALATA SAFARIS]

COLOR phases have more than just predator issues for game, here is one how will a black sprinbuck's body temp regulating be affected in the Kalahari or Namib, how will his brain temp regulating be influenced?

Predators are but a very small part of this.
Issues, issues, issues..

My best always

 

[Flippie]

Hi Bob

I just used dogs, because everybody knows them so it's easy to explain, but you are completely correct that most of the problems dogs have, are because they were bred to have noses that are insufficient for effective breathing etc. What I should have said (was my bad I should have been clearer) is that in the same way that dogs were selected for specific traits, so antelope are now being selected for their colour (or for that matter selection based solely on horn length could be questioned too). The thing is that each chromosome in an animal carries multiple genes, so the chromosome carrying the gene for gold colour could also be carrying genes that affect the immune system or bone density or speed or...or...or..., we just don't know yet, but it could also carry positive effects.

I wouldn't compare them to labradors, since they have the advantage of being human companions and get to go to the vet and get great food etc. so less obvious negative impacts could easily be overlooked, and the same would apply to comparing it with cattle to a degree, but I have spoken to some vets and they have specifically told me that lighter coloured animals, irrelevant of shape or size, are more susceptible to developing skin cancer, because they have less melanin; this is an example of an unintended negative effect of selecting for a specific trait.

I would rather say let's look at the wolves that have been mentioned quite a few times in this thread, the wolf colour variants seem to occur relatively commonly nature, from what I understand from other comments and from what I have been able to see (unfortunately only on documentaries), we could also add boomslang (translated as tree snake, it has no English name) their colour ranges from brown to olive to bright green also under natural conditions and there are many other examples of animals that occur in different colour phases under natural conditions.
Taking the above into account then from a purely nature conservationist viewpoint we could the ask the following question: If colour variation holds no additional negative effects for the antelope why was the copper or coffee coloured springbok (which still blends nicely into the veld and with herds of normal animals and still has lots of melanin) or golden wildebeest or any other colour variant not the dominant/most common or at least just more common (such as the wolf colour phases) from the very start, and the normal colour phase the oddity?

Then I can give you some extra information that goes with what Jaco started with.

COLOR phases have more than just predator issues for game, here is one how will a black sprinbuck's body temp regulating be affected in the Kalahari or Namib, how will his brain temp regulating be influenced?

Predators are but a very small part of this.
Issues, issues, issues..

My best always

In another study on the thermoregulation behaviour of springbok (and in my own field research I observed similar behaviour) it was found that white springbok feed more often than other colour phases (espescially in winter time) and black springbok make use of shade more and feed less than the other colour phases, the study also measured body temperature of the animals they were observing. They then concluded that white springbok have more difficulty keeping their body temperature up since they absorb less heat from the sun and thus to maintain their body temp they have a higher metabolism and accordingly require more food. In the case of the black springbok they absorb so much heat from the sun that they have to start being inactive and utilize shade earlier in the day than the other colours. In my own research my results show that white springbok present their sides to the sun for longer periods than other colour phases so they can absorb max heat from the sun, and interestingly enough the black springbok avoided using the Karoo shrubland (no trees) on the farm entirely during the study period and remained in the Kalahari thornveld part of the farm where there is plenty of shade for them, whilst the white springbok never ventured far from the area where they were provided with lucerne and supplements to feed on.

All you have to do is legislate one child for population control and apparently you can make lots of girl babies disappear!
I would be interested to see if the animals themselves would select the variants as mates or not. They might just reduce themselves naturally.

Hi Brickburn

I initially wanted make this the focus of my study, from what some farmers said (unverified) it seemed that colour did influence sexual selection, unfortunately it was very difficult to study because of the high degree of management on game farms, where only the animals with the desirable traits are allowed to breed whilst the other animals are sold at auction or hunted. So on many occasions just as I thought this or that herd of bachelor springbok are now getting to be a nice size and will soon compete with the dominant males I would go back to the farm for my next period of fieldwork and all of those rams would be gone, leaving no competition for the existing males.

Thanks for all your inputs, I really enjoy it and find that seeing things through different eyes makes one think a bit further than just the obvious stuff.