A-Frames, any Neck Anomalies with Brass

[Wildwillalaska]

Sorry gents, not even sure how to word this, so went broad stroke looking for any issues or anomalies folks may have noted with their brass when reloading A-frames vs other bullets. Have had four different rifles I’ve done load development for this year where I was trying out A-frames, Northfork, TSX and Woodleigh for softs, and Northfork and CEB solids. I had some sort of pause, scratch my head, moment with the A-frame loads, from split necks, to horizontal cracks closer back to shoulder/taper to even having what looked like a ring of copper jacket material in two rifles. All of this was with Virginia brass. One, the brass is older Kynoch headstamped Bertram which was fracturing around the neck. Annealing decreased, but it still persisted on occasion. None of these issues presented even once in any of the rifles with any of the other bullets.

First time around, worried an issue with the rifle or what I was doing wrong. After the second rifle did it, was pretty certain I was doing something the A-frames didn’t agree with. Now, with nearly the same issues with varying frequency in 4 rifles, three different brands of brass, and not a single instance with several other makes of bullets (across all four rifles and four different cartridges) have concluded it must be me and how I’m holding my mouth or something. I’ve reloaded for years without issue and am at a loss. Tried reading elsewhere on the web without much luck, so am humbly turning to you gents for any advise, and if anyone has experienced similar or even other issues with your reloads rolled with A-frames.

And…to be clear…this is not a dig on Swift or A-frames. I love the bullet design and about to walk away, relegating myself to fling Northfork, CEB and TSX for life, but at least wanted to see if I could sort the issue where maybe I could hang with the A-frame cool club a bit longer.

 

[Rumrunner]

Just out of curiosity what caliber(s) were you reloading?

 

[Wildwillalaska]

All rimmed nitro express cartridges, 450/400, 450, 470 and 500.

 

[festuscat]

Reading your post, my first thought was have you mic’s the AFrames?
I load the AFrames for the 9.3x62 in both 286 & 300 gn. The 300gn has a different ogive so the bullet has to be seated deeper to chamber. I have heard the 300 gn are drawn down from .375 hence the difference.
It doesn’t address the issue you are having but wanted to mention.
Also, had Nosler 250gn factory that split necks w dangerous blow back.

 

[MacJenkins]

Are you flaring the case mouth? I have had jackets scrape when not enough flare with some case bullet combo's. And not all Nitro/Bullet combos need it. 577 & 600 in my experience always do 100% of the time with CEB's and Woodleighs. That's the only bullets I load in those two. But I never got cracks when not done just damaged case mouths.

Then how are you annealing and are you annealing enough? We talked about this a bit when you were out but don't recall what your process was.

 

[C.W. Richter]

Too many variables to make an informed decision here, but that typically happens from too much pressure. IF the cases are undamaged upon reloading, but damaged upon firing, it's most likely a pressure issue. IF the bullet dimension is a bit larger, more neck tension creates more resistance (pressure). The neck sizing collet can be changed for less neck tension (as BR shooters often do this), and die components can actually wear out with prolonged use (reduced dimensions resulting in tighter loads). Then there's your rifling dimensions v. that of the particular bullet (not all guns/bullets are the same), et. al. And yes, A-Frames are the PERFECT softs for DG. IF just a tad too much powder charge for the ballistic, the neck splits (esp. on older brass.) The annealing as mentioned above can be the issue as well (but typ on subsequent loadings/firings). I have a .338 A-Sq (prototype to the .338-378 Wby essentially that takes a 100+/ gr powder charge) that splits one brand of case necks unless the powder charge is reduced 2 gr, while the other brand A-Sq used has no issues to max load, unless particularly hot out. I used to think Norma brass was the best as it's so damn hard, thick and tough...and then I realized in certain guns it created more resistance (backpressure) on similar loads, often popping primers, etc. Because it's so damn tough relative to most other brass, it can't handle max loads as well as other brands. Evidence of overpressure. Also, what works in a colder climate often needs to be reduced for a hotter climate (-0.5 gr typ does the trick.) I test all Africa handloads on hot summer days to ensure reliability over there. How many times has this brass been fired/reloaded? The A-Sq is so good, the damage begins prior to firing, it seems! The dark recesses tell me that the Swift is a shorter slug than comparables (Nos PT, etc.). Only the Woodleighs are shorter. So, the required seating depth (and accompanying pressure) may be different as well. Double-check the case lengths too, as stretched-beyond-max will create similar headaches as well-and chamfer the finished product. GL! Let us know how it works out...

 

[Wildwillalaska]

I do a small amount of flare, and maybe not deep enough since I only flare the first 1/8” maybe. Haven’t measured how far down the casemouth, but just enough so the bullets with sharp-edged bottoms, like CEB and NF (hydros too) start nicely inside the mouth and don’t snag. When I first reloaded some of the NF solids for that rifle, I had one snag the lip of the mouth, roll it under and scrunch it. That made it sound worse that it looked, bet it was salvageable to pull and save the case, etc., but for safety sake and out of frustration just tossed it.

Doing just that slight flare solved it entirely. On most prior rounds I’ve loaded for, slight chamfer (and boat-tail bullets) were always enough. Flare things is load gas checked hard cast, but otherwise never messed with it.

Doesn’t matter at this point as I’ve just decided I’m not cool enough to play with A-Frames. I’ll use Northfork Semi-Spitzers where I’d shoot A-frames for everything but the 500 just because NF isn’t producing .510’s presently…but CEB Raptors and Woodleigh SN will suffice when the time comes to go after Buffalo with the 500NE…which I’ll have to do at least once.

 

[Wildwillalaska]

Are you flaring the case mouth? I have had jackets scrape when not enough flare with some case bullet combo's. And not all Nitro/Bullet combos need it. 577 & 600 in my experience always do 100% of the time with CEB's and Woodleighs. That's the only bullets I load in those two. But I never got cracks when not done just damaged case mouths.

Then how are you annealing and are you annealing enough? We talked about this a bit when you were out but don't recall what your process was.

I did some redneck annealing on a few of those Kynoch headstamped Bertram cases, but haven’t properly addressed my annealing needs, and did decide that redneck annealing was a good way or ruining cases more than extending life.

Since I’ve had absolutely zero issues (other than the single snag with a NF tripping on the rim) with any other bullets even remotely close to my struggles described here, with any other calibers, these NE cases or others from precision rifle to lever action casts to handguns, I’ve just decided A-Frames might be allergic to me.

I do miss the brass service I used when shooting F-Class. I’d send several hundred fired Lapua cases off every 3-6 weeks, they’d come back all perfectly processed, trimmed, lemon shined and freshly annealed. The good old days.

I need to get one of the annealers like you have. What I’ve learned for these doubles, from shooting, loading, etc., it’s all basically copied from you. No sense in recreating the wheel, especially a Ferrari wheel. lol.

Issue for now though is more space than anything. Until we build a shop on one of our adjacent lots, I don’t have room for most the stuff I already have, let alone more. And with the misses deciding to step back into school for her Nurse Practitioner license, she’ll have to step out of her director position likely next year and go part-time while doing her clinicals, so the man-cave shop with air bnb / party house above will have to wait two more years. Also not likely doing multiple trips to Africa in 2027. Jokingly told her I may just have to string a couple hunts together in October that year.

 

[Wildwillalaska]

And gents, no worries at this point. I asked a few weeks back as I couldn’t find answers researching it and had already tickled my curiosity past the point of frustration. So when unanswered here, I took it all as a good sign to simply move along and stick with what had clearly worked without any issues.

As for a couple things inquired above. I mic’d the bullets, usually always do and weigh them. I typically also do that box to box as well if the lots are different, while not as noticeable in these big ol bullets, in longer VLD type bullets, Bergers, accubonds, etc., I notice some real changes in where ogive is and required adjustments for seating depth. So it’s habit.

In this particular situation, I don’t think it was pressure. I ran into the issues at mild starting loads, with virgin brass and no other signs of pressure looking at the primers. So never got up to working loads with the a-frames, only other bullets. And shooting side by side with several other bullet types, never had a similar issue. The brass was all virgin. Didn’t have it with Norma brass in the 500, only Kynoch headstamped Bertram, which talking with Mac back in December made us wonder if it had hardened from age. But had some similar issues with Norma brass in a 470 and Hornady brass in other rifles.

So I’m moving on for now and just not messing with the A-frames in doubles for now. Do plan to talk to Swift in Nashville to see if they have an idea what I’m screwing up. But all the other bullets I’ve tried in every one of the same rifles with the same powder, same brass, same primers, and same foam wads, zero issues. All shot wonderfully, accurate, zero issues with pressure, or case anomalies or tiny copper ring left behind or anything. So just going with what worked.

Appreciate the thought and assistance gents.

 

[MacJenkins]

I did some redneck annealing on a few of those Kynoch headstamped Bertram cases, but haven’t properly addressed my annealing needs, and did decide that redneck annealing was a good way or ruining cases more than extending life.

Since I’ve had absolutely zero issues (other than the single snag with a NF tripping on the rim) with any other bullets even remotely close to my struggles described here, with any other calibers, these NE cases or others from precision rifle to lever action casts to handguns, I’ve just decided A-Frames might be allergic to me.

I do miss the brass service I used when shooting F-Class. I’d send several hundred fired Lapua cases off every 3-6 weeks, they’d come back all perfectly processed, trimmed, lemon shined and freshly annealed. The good old days.

I need to get one of the annealers like you have. What I’ve learned for these doubles, from shooting, loading, etc., it’s all basically copied from you. No sense in recreating the wheel, especially a Ferrari wheel. lol.

Issue for now though is more space than anything. Until we build a shop on one of our adjacent lots, I don’t have room for most the stuff I already have, let alone more. And with the misses deciding to step back into school for her Nurse Practitioner license, she’ll have to step out of her director position likely next year and go part-time while doing her clinicals, so the man-cave shop with air bnb / party house above will have to wait two more years. Also not likely doing multiple trips to Africa in 2027. Jokingly told her I may just have to string a couple hunts together in October that year.

Makes sense! Yes, I have had issues with slightly folding over case mouths especially with 600 nitro as the case mouth is so fragile as the diameter is big. I like you have been able to pull them back straight with a brass dowel as the last time I bought them I think they were $13.00 a case.

So, is the brass cracking when you load or shoot? Not sure if I have a solution for either if annealing is not working.

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

Sorry gents, not even sure how to word this, so went broad stroke looking for any issues or anomalies folks may have noted with their brass when reloading A-frames vs other bullets. Have had four different rifles I’ve done load development for this year where I was trying out A-frames, Northfork, TSX and Woodleigh for softs, and Northfork and CEB solids. I had some sort of pause, scratch my head, moment with the A-frame loads, from split necks, to horizontal cracks closer back to shoulder/taper to even having what looked like a ring of copper jacket material in two rifles. All of this was with Virginia brass. One, the brass is older Kynoch headstamped Bertram which was fracturing around the neck. Annealing decreased, but it still persisted on occasion. None of these issues presented even once in any of the rifles with any of the other bullets.

First time around, worried an issue with the rifle or what I was doing wrong. After the second rifle did it, was pretty certain I was doing something the A-frames didn’t agree with. Now, with nearly the same issues with varying frequency in 4 rifles, three different brands of brass, and not a single instance with several other makes of bullets (across all four rifles and four different cartridges) have concluded it must be me and how I’m holding my mouth or something. I’ve reloaded for years without issue and am at a loss. Tried reading elsewhere on the web without much luck, so am humbly turning to you gents for any advise, and if anyone has experienced similar or even other issues with your reloads rolled with A-frames.

And…to be clear…this is not a dig on Swift or A-frames. I love the bullet design and about to walk away, relegating myself to fling Northfork, CEB and TSX for life, but at least wanted to see if I could sort the issue where maybe I could hang with the A-frame cool club a bit longer.

@Wildwillalaska
If it is Bertram brass it's nothing you have done a because Bertram in my experience is absolutely SHIT BRASS.

This is an example on brand new Bertram brass in 25-303 that I tried to fire form in my rifle. This was with light loads. It was the same in the other rifle I tried and in it they had to be knocked out with a cleaning rod because the rims were undersize as well and the extractor wouldn't bite them. Annealing them made no difference.
All Bruce Bertram said when I spoke to him and I gave him the case measurements is that they were in spec. Didn't offer a refund or exchange.
Piss poor service and product in my books.
Bob