577 NE double rifles

[PCC600]

Is he, that is very interesting, I have been following that rifle for 20yrs I reckon !

I have also heard of your friend with the big bore arsenal, as many of the rifles I was looking for or following went to him, you are very lucky !

Some Westleys and Hollands have landed in my lap .

 

[50Gunner]

Dang Matt, wish you weren't so far away, loaded up 140 fresh rounds for my 577 Nitro last spring, you could fire all you want, it however wouldn't take many ; ]

750 grains over 133grs H-4350 at 2076 fps boots a little, even in a 13.5 lb V/C 577 double with 26" barrels.

 

[Red Leg]

A lot of commentary about 577 BPE rifles . In a nitro for black loading they are very effective on buffalo . Worth noting that Dave Lindner a renowned Aussie game ranger and hunter had an Army & Navy rifle 577BPE ( Webley Screw Grip action ) called “Sweet Heart “ . This rifle has killed more buffalo than probably any double out there . It has a cut down 22 inch barrel and uses full nitro loads with 750 grain bullets . I don’t know the velocity achieved but guess it is circa 1900fps. Strangely it is not that bad to shoot with full loads . I’d baulk at trying to take an elephant but would have total faith in going for any type of buffalo with a good 577 BPE .

Shooting "full Nitro loads" in a 577 BPE is like pulling the pin on a grenade every time it is fired. I would urge you not to encourage others to do something that dangerous. A typical .577 BPE is proofed to safely fire from 12k to 14K PSI. Some nitro for black powder loads run up to 18k PSI, but even that is inherently potentially dangerous and beyond proof. A .577 Nitro express load generates pressures of 33K to 40K PSI. That is creating a potential bomb out of a BPE rifle, I don't care how many buffalo your friend has killed with it.

The 577 BPE , like the 500 BPE, was not intended for thick skin dangerous game. That is not conjecture. It was a lethal lion and tiger choice. The barrels also were not intended for modern projectiles. Typical were relatively thin copper skinned or pure lead projectiles. Modern steel or brass jacketed bullets will quickly damage rifling, particularly in Damascus barrels with which many BPE guns were equipped (often now blacked which hides the damascus pattern).

Will a BPE kill a buffalo. Of course, if hit in exactly the right spot under exactly the right conditions. So did a 6.5 solid from Selous's H&H .256 Mannlicher fired by Bill Jones in the Zambezi Delta. That does not make the .256 a buffalo rifle.

 

[Mark A Ouellette]

Shooting "full Nitro loads" in a 577 BPE is like pulling the pin on a grenade every time it is fired. I would urge you not to encourage others to do something that dangerous. A typical .577 BPE is proofed to safely fire from 12k to 14K PSI. Some nitro for black powder loads run up to 18k PSI, but even that is inherently potentially dangerous and beyond proof. A .577 Nitro express load generates pressures of 33K to 40K PSI.

@Red Leg is right on the money!

I spent a good number of years collecting, loading for, shooting, and hunting waterfowl and pheasants with Damascus barrel vintage shotguns. Based on the experiments of Sherman Bell published in the Double Gun Journel many like me put those beautiful Damascus and twist barrel guns into the range and field once again.

My work included studing the making of the above types of pattern welded barrels. These are what today we call nano-technology. Fusing together the ductile iron with more rigid steel created barrels that could expand under pressure and then contract to original dimensions better than the steels of that day.

Damascus barrels from Belgium used by good makers such as Parker, LC Smith, Lefever, W&C Scott, and others were before WWI of the highest quality. Those used in "Another Belgium Clunker" may or may not have been of good quality. During WWI many of the Belgium skilled workmen were killed and so was the Damascus barrel trade. After WWI steel barrels were less money and gun makers started the Damascus isn't safe marketing....

The above stated, black powder shotshells of a century or more ago developed if memory serves me no more than 10,000 psi, probably more like 8000 psi. A modern 12 ga shotshell loaded to SAAMI or CIP specs develops 11,500 psi. This is far below 30,000+ psi developed by Nitro rifle cartridges!

Be safe out there and remember that we are only caretakers of fine vingtage firearms. Please, do no harm to them or yourselves.

 

[SStomcat]

750 grains over 133grs H-4350 at 2076 fps boots a little, even in a 13.5 lb V/C 577 double with 26" barrels.

I use 110 to 108 grains for my 470 ne, recoil for my 11 pounds is manageable standing. How is the recoil with increased load for a 13.5 lb rifle, curious.

 

[SStomcat]

Shooting "full Nitro loads" in a 577 BPE is like pulling the pin on a grenade every time it is fired. I would urge you not to encourage others to do something that dangerous. A typical .577 BPE is proofed to safely fire from 12k to 14K PSI. Some nitro for black powder loads run up to 18k PSI, but even that is inherently potentially dangerous and beyond proof. A .577 Nitro express load generates pressures of 33K to 40K PSI. That is creating a potential bomb out of a BPE rifle, I don't care how many buffalo your friend has killed with it.

The 577 BPE , like the 500 BPE, was not intended for thick skin dangerous game. That is not conjecture. It was a lethal lion and tiger choice. The barrels also were not intended for modern projectiles. Typical were relatively thin copper skinned or pure lead projectiles. Modern steel or brass jacketed bullets will quickly damage rifling, particularly in Damascus barrels with which many BPE guns were equipped (often now blacked which hides the damascus pattern).

Will a BPE kill a buffalo. Of course, if hit in exactly the right spot under exactly the right conditions. So did a 6.5 solid from Selous's H&H .256 Mannlicher fired by Bill Jones in the Zambezi Delta. That does not make the .256 a buffalo rifle.

That is what I thought too, Red. I honestly never knew that using Nitro loads in a BPE was considered safe, which was the basis for my response to Azdave earlier. Now, after reading all this, I’m back on the fence again.
I have no intention of buying a BPE, and even if I did, I’d probably stick to what the rifle was originally designed for. Old rifles and pressure limits are not really where I feel like conducting my own science experiment. But then you hear the stories BPEs supposedly running Nitro loads for years and taking countless buffalo without incident. So what are we looking at here? A disaster waiting to happen? Did the rifle somehow “harden up” with use? Did the barrels stretch just enough to accommodate the extra pressure? Was some work done to the rifle along the way?
I suspect the honest answer is: we’ll probably never know.

Personally, I agree it’s just not worth taking an unnecessary risk. If I ever become sufficiently determined to shoot Nitro loads, I’ll take the simpler route buy a rifle designed for Nitro loads and let the BPE live its own intended life.

Just some early morning musings… before the coffee has had a chance to improve my judgment.

 

[Huvius]

Hollis & Sons London 577 - 2 3/4" - Martini Gunmakers Canada

Hollis & Sons London 577 – 2 3/4″ Serial No. 80949 Time period pre world war I Cordite 90 Grs, Bullet 750 Grs Barrels 25″ long, bore good LOP 15″ Comes with original case This consignment gun is located in the USA!

martinigunmakers.com

Probably the least expensive full boat 577 on the market.

 

[SStomcat]

Hollis & Sons London 577 - 2 3/4" - Martini Gunmakers Canada

Hollis & Sons London 577 – 2 3/4″ Serial No. 80949 Time period pre world war I Cordite 90 Grs, Bullet 750 Grs Barrels 25″ long, bore good LOP 15″ Comes with original case This consignment gun is located in the USA!

martinigunmakers.com

Probably the least expensive full boat 577 on the market.

Well, may be not a full 577 nitro by todays standards without a 3" cartridge.

 

[AZDAVE]

Anyone working with a BPE I would hope has read Graeme Wright's "Shooting the British Double" book at least 4 times. In it he lists loads for both BPE nitro for black and the original 167gr of black powder,. at 10 TPSI (tons per square inch) and that converts to 22400 PSI. The loads that regulated in my BPE were Nitro fo black at 8.9tpsi at 19936PSI. the reason I sold my BPE (Didn't own a NE at the time) was because my oldest son was visiting and shot my BPE and enjoyed shooting it but isn't a handloader and has no interest in learning. He said that he would just buy factory ammo and go from there. My worries is since the brass I use say 577 nitro express on it that at some point long after I am gone that a family member would drop a full nitro in it and blow it up and hurt them.

On a 577 NE the 750grsolid 100gr cordite original load was 15tpsi or 33600psi the loads I use in my NE's is 650gr solid at 10.5tpsi or 23520 psi.

Everyone I know that works with the old classic BPE rounds are fully capable of shooting them safely.

Anyone new to the old rifles needs to study alot before they put together rounds for it. Or just stay shooting modern rifles!!!

 

[Miletic]

Seen this posted on IG
W.Douglas 470 vs Gibbs 577
View attachment 797033

Seen this posted on IG
W.Douglas 470 vs Gibbs 577
View attachment 797033

I can't believe the difference in the picture

 

[Red Leg]

I can't believe the difference in the picture

Exactly, Now imagine how you would look at it after spending eight hours in the hot son tryin to catch up with a group of buffalo.

 

[SStomcat]

Anyone working with a BPE I would hope has read Graeme Wright's "Shooting the British Double" book at least 4 times. In it he lists loads for both BPE nitro for black and the original 167gr of black powder,. at 10 TPSI (tons per square inch) and that converts to 22400 PSI. The loads that regulated in my BPE were Nitro fo black at 8.9tpsi at

Pardon my ignorance, but “Nitro for BPE” sounds almost like an oxymoron. Does it simply mean modern nitro powders loaded to replicate the original black-powder ballistics and pressure, specifically for rifles designed for BPE?

 

[matt85]

Pardon my ignorance, but “Nitro for BPE” sounds almost like an oxymoron. Does it simply mean modern nitro powders loaded to replicate the original black-powder ballistics and pressure, specifically for rifles designed for BPE?

"Nitro for black" loads are as you said, modern smokeless loads that duplicate black powder pressures and speeds. I use 67gr of Alliant Blue Dot in my 8-bore 3 1/4" to duplicate the black powder loads. It produces the same velocity with the same projectile at similar pressures.

Dang Matt, wish you weren't so far away, loaded up 140 fresh rounds for my 577 Nitro last spring, you could fire all you want, it however wouldn't take many ; ]

750 grains over 133grs H-4350 at 2076 fps boots a little, even in a 13.5 lb V/C 577 double with 26" barrels.

13.5 lb is a little too light for my liking! Id be willing to give it a shot though. You would be welcome to shoot my W.J. Jeffery double aswell.

 

[Red Leg]

Pardon my ignorance, but “Nitro for BPE” sounds almost like an oxymoron. Does it simply mean modern nitro powders loaded to replicate the original black-powder ballistics and pressure, specifically for rifles designed for BPE?

Yes, though it can be a bit more complicated. The filled volume is quite different and tends to become bigger the larger in caliber. Therefore it is usually necessary to use fillers or wads to keep the powder positioned correctly next to the primer. There are some exceptions like Trail Boss powders that closely conform to the BB space. Needless to say, these different powders and fillers can produce regulation somewhat different than the original.

 

[Huvius]

Well, may be not a full 577 nitro by todays standards without a 3" cartridge.

Maybe... The 90-750 load was offered in the 2-3/4", 3" and 3-1/4" 577 but the 100gr Cordite charge was only offered in the 3" and 3-1/4" cases.
I believe the 100/750 577s are quite rare.