470 Reduced Practice Loads

[Don Hinton]

I used this company for practice 470

Nyati Inc

World's Most Accurate Low Recoil Big Bore Practice Ammunition

nyatiinc.com

Don

 

[towserthemouser]

It’s not easy to do with 470NE.

Generally speaking, to get this to work you need reasonable accuracy (broadside of a barn). What people usually do is try to mimic the same velocity you had with the full load, but with a lighter bullet, thus your gun has relatively similar regulation properties.

470NE is a 500gr bullet, so you’d find a .471” to .474” bullet that was perhaps 380-400gr for your reduced load. You’d then select the fastest burning powder safe for that load and would try to regulate using as close to a starting load as possible.

Expensive, time consuming, specialty work for you to do this. You’ll need to be a proficient handloader as well.

For me, I’d just shoot off sticks to reduce my perceived recoil and I’d develop a load that has less recoil. An IMR3031 “full load” with 77gr of powder and 500gr bullet produces 58lbs of recoil, a full load with IMR4831 106gr of powder produces 89lbs of felt recoil. RL15 also is a low perceived recoil full load.

What you’ve asked is much easier to do with a magazine rifle because regulation isn’t a factor. It’s doubly hard with a 470NE because there are fewer light bullet options than say a 500NE that has a standard 570gr bullet but also an obtainable 440gr alternative.

@rookhawk I want to make sure I understand exactly what you're saying here. Are you saying that (in this example) 77gr of IMR3031 will push a 500gr .474 bullet at 2150fps, the same as 106gr of IMR4831, with associated reduction of recoil? Or are you saying that the 77gr IMR3031 load will be at a lower velocity, along with reduced recoil? In other words, is the 77gr IMR3031 just a low-recoil practice load, or is it a functional hunting load? Sorry if my question is a dumb one, I am here to learn from those who know more than I do and are willing to share their wisdom.

 

[rookhawk]

@rookhawk I want to make sure I understand exactly what you're saying here. Are you saying that (in this example) 77gr of IMR3031 will push a 500gr .474 bullet at 2150fps, the same as 106gr of IMR4831, with associated reduction of recoil? Or are you saying that the 77gr IMR3031 load will be at a lower velocity, along with reduced recoil? In other words, is the 77gr IMR3031 just a low-recoil practice load, or is it a functional hunting load? Sorry if my question is a dumb one, I am here to learn from those who know more than I do and are willing to share their wisdom.

Correct. Recoil is just math.

"All things being equal, the powder that achieves a given velocity with a given bullet using the fewest grains will have the least recoil."

Regarding the 2150fps comment, neither load is 2150, both are going to be around 2080-2115 depending on barrel length real-world.

 

[towserthemouser]

Correct. Recoil is just math.

"All things being equal, the powder that achieves a given velocity with a given bullet using the fewest grains will have the least recoil."

Regarding the 2150fps comment, neither load is 2150, both are going to be around 2080-2115 depending on barrel length real-world.

Thank you! I just used 2150fps since I've seen that figure published as a "typical" 470NE velocity. I do understand that published velocities from test barrels and real-world velocities from hunting rifles are not the same.

It sounds like IMR3031 is definitely the way to go then!

 

[Wahoo]

Thank you! I just used 2150fps since I've seen that figure published as a "typical" 470NE velocity. I do understand that published velocities from test barrels and real-world velocities from hunting rifles are not the same.

It sounds like IMR3031 is definitely the way to go then!

To further illustrate @rookhawk ’s point-
Out of 24” barrels with 77.5 gr of 3031 and a Kynoch wad and a 500 gr swift AFrame I get exactly 2100 fps.

 

[Kevin Peacocke]

I have never understood the logic of down-loading. The double you have is what it is, it is meant to send out a certain bullet at a certain velocity and that is the beast. If you can't handle it, buy something you can handle. Unless the objective is always to just punch paper for fun, and that is perfectly OK, then the purpose of practicing for game shooting competency is getting used to the whole package, including the recoil.
Of course, as Rook says, get a load set up to deliver the correct ballistics with as little pain as possible, but big bore pain comes with the turf really.

 

[BrownMax]

I’m lucky having steady access to superb cast bullets to my 470. These bullets are just above 500 grs, with some fast burning powder and a dash of dacron I load these bullets to 1600 fps. This makes for great practice without the punishment of full power loads. I do not see a systematic different point of impact when practicing offhand shooting at 20 to 40 metres. Honestly, I do not see the need to do all the practice with full power loads. I assume the lead cast bullets at gentle velocities are gentle both on the rifle as well as the shooter. It is also my experience that having access to such loads, especially if they are cheap, results in much more practice than if only having access to the standard 2150 fps loads.

 

[Safari Dave]

I have never understood the logic of down-loading. The double you have is what it is, it is meant to send out a certain bullet at a certain velocity and that is the beast. If you can't handle it, buy something you can handle. Unless the objective is always to just punch paper for fun, and that is perfectly OK, then the purpose of practicing for game shooting competency is getting used to the whole package, including the recoil.
Of course, as Rook says, get a load set up to deliver the correct ballistics with as little pain as possible, but big bore pain comes with the turf really.

I've never understood it, nor have I done it.

Big bore rifles have considerable muzzle energy and considerable recoil.

I don't think it makes for any better practice than simply dry-firing.

I believe you tend to start flinching with anything, using the "blind load technique".


Your brain knows when you are using full power loads, if you load your own rifle.

I would advise to just learn how to shoot full power loads without flinching, or downsize to something your are comfortable with.


Low power "practice loads" will not hit anywhere near the POI of full power loads at hunting distance. DR's are regulated with very specific ammunition. IME, anything else will be much off at hunting distance.

 

[Racer00]

Gentlemen, I believe you are assuming facts not in evidence. I never said anything about a recoil aversion. I am definitely not recoil averse. And using your logic that using reduced power loads doesn't make for any better practice, then dry firing is useless as well. Which we all know is not the case.
I asked about reduced loads for several reasons.
Using less powder and possibly hard cast bullets can lessen the expense of extensive practice.
More practice, especially of my rapid reloading skills, can and will help build muscle memory so that in the heat of battle there is a better chance of a good outcome.
Obviously reduced recoil is a help. No one wants to get the crap beat out of them. But, truthfully, have any of you ever been bothered by the recoil when an actual game shooting situation is happening?

It was also noted above that regulation with a reduced load would probably not be great. I could care less. As long as the shots from each barrel group together, even if 10-15'' apart and not on the bull, what does it matter? It's the action of shooting, reloading and shooting again that I deemed important. Before going on the actual hunt, I would obviously recheck and assure that regulation with the full power loads is as it should be.
Not hitting the bull is kind of like shooting for groups with your small bore rifle. Nobody is generally as concerned if centering the bull, as you can always adjust your aiming mechanism, but more about center to center of the group. When you buy a rifle nobody advertises it as able to put all the bullets in the black. They tell you it will shoot MOA or .5 or .4 groups, etc.

Not trying to be argumentative, just clearing up what my intentions are. Thank you all for your input. Always nice to have a good discussion.

 

[Northern Shooter]

Just picked up a 470NE as well. In terms of factory ammo are there any loads that differ from the standard 500gr @ 2,150fps?

 

[towserthemouser]

In a recent trial by @Wahoo he was getting poor regulation with dacron, but got excellent regulation with the kynoch wads. I believe his chrony showed lower velocity at a given pressure and load with kynoch wads, surely altering regulation. Note, my 470NE heym and his are made in same year and my regulation was the opposite, it was very good with dacron at same grain weight his gun was excellent with kynoch.

My opinion is that if dacron is safe at a given load, the kynoch wad opens up more options to fine tune your regulation. But I'm a conservative guy and like starting to moderate loads with big bores. The goal is getting passed 2050fps at the muzzle with great regulation. It seems that these loads are around 2150fps at the muzzle of a 24" gun. That's all a man needs to take down every animal on earth.

@rookhawk Can you please educate me regarding the Dacron and Kynoch wads? I've always associated wads with shotgun loads and did not realize they can be used in a rifle load. I feel like I'm missing something important here and would like to understand better.

 

[rookhawk]

@rookhawk Can you please educate me regarding the Dacron and Kynoch wads? I've always associated wads with shotgun loads and did not realize they can be used in a rifle load. I feel like I'm missing something important here and would like to understand better.

Wads push the powder back against the primer to ensure consistent ignition. It doesn’t matter with a full case, but it’s very important with modern powders in large bores where you may not come even close to filling the case.

Dacron stuffing creates more pressure, but can be very accurate. Kynoch foam wads produce less pressure but the loads regulate differently so you may need to try both.

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

So I've decided to give this a go with IMR3031 in my .470 double. Reading earlier in the thread it seems 77-78 grains is where most are settling in at. So if I start at 74gr with a single Kynoch wad I think I'm at a safe starting point. Agree?

 

[deewayne2003]

So I've decided to give this a go with IMR3031 in my .470 double. Reading earlier in the thread it seems 77-78 grains is where most are settling in at. So if I start at 74gr with a single Kynoch wad I think I'm at a safe starting point. Agree?

Agreed,

You’ll probably see the bullets impact good on vertical elevation and horizontally spread apart; as the speed increases with powder charge work up the bullets will converge tighter together until they print as you want. Go past that and the bullets will start to cross.

As previously posted, my regulation load is 78gr IMR3031, Kynoch #2 wad, 500gr bullet, Win LRM primer.

FYI velocity of this load out of my 24” barrels is 2,085fps with my chronograph set up 10yds infront of muzzle.

I have used the same load with 2.0gr Dacron for a couple hundred rounds before switching to wads.

For Dacron I just got a pillow off Amazon that specifically stated Dacron stuffing and that 12” pillow would have lasted me a lifetime for $5 delivered.

 

[rookhawk]

So I've decided to give this a go with IMR3031 in my .470 double. Reading earlier in the thread it seems 77-78 grains is where most are settling in at. So if I start at 74gr with a single Kynoch wad I think I'm at a safe starting point. Agree?

Agreed. If it doesn’t regulate, start back at 74 and use Dacron. It’s higher pressure, but it creates different regulation. My Heym I think regulated at 77.5gr and Dacron. It would have behaved differently and had lower pressure with a wad.

 

[Wahoo]

So I've decided to give this a go with IMR3031 in my .470 double. Reading earlier in the thread it seems 77-78 grains is where most are settling in at. So if I start at 74gr with a single Kynoch wad I think I'm at a safe starting point. Agree?

Agree with you and @rookhawk. That’s a safe starting point. If you get to an appropriate velocity with no pressure concern then change wads between Dacron and kynoch to see if better regulation. I stopped at 79 grains with my.470 Heym fyi.

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

Thank you gents.

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

Nothing new to add to this thread, but I did finally get to the range today to try out some IMR3031 loads. I normally use Norma brass, but I try to use other brass for practice or initial load development. So in this case I had some old Jamison brass that was ready to load.

Sparing too many boring details. I started today's round with some 500gr North Forks loaded with H4831 which were right in the bullseye at 25 yards as expected. I then started with the IMR3031 loads with the same bullets using a single Kynoch wad.

These loads printed about 3/4" lower with respect to the H4831 loads but in line with the horizontal axis. And has been noted, recoil was noticeably less. You still know you're shooting a big boy, but considerably more pleasant.

If I had to pick a load that I shot as best, it would be the 77gr load. But honestly the 76 and 78 grain loads would all work fine at buffalo/elephant distance. So maybe a grain or two less than what others have seen, but that falls in line with what I normally find in the Northfork bonded core soft points usually use a little less powder than other bullets.

To end the shoot with the 470, I went back to the H4831 loads for one more shot just to note recoil difference. No doubt about it, it was a noticeable increase in felt recoil.

Thanks to those who previously posted on the thread, it took a lot of work out of the equation. Now I just have to dial in a load using the Norma brass.

 

[rookhawk]

Nothing new to add to this thread, but I did finally get to the range today to try out some IMR3031 loads. I normally use Norma brass, but I try to use other brass for practice or initial load development. So in this case I had some old Jamison brass that was ready to load.

Sparing too many boring details. I started today's round with some 500gr North Forks loaded with H4831 which were right in the bullseye at 25 yards as expected. I then started with the IMR3031 loads with the same bullets using a single Kynoch wad.

These loads printed about 3/4" lower with respect to the H4831 loads but in line with the horizontal axis. And has been noted, recoil was noticeably less. You still know you're shooting a big boy, but considerably more pleasant.

If I had to pick a load that I shot as best, it would be the 77gr load. But honestly the 76 and 78 grain loads would all work fine at buffalo/elephant distance. So maybe a grain or two less than what others have seen, but that falls in line with what I normally find in the Northfork bonded core soft points usually use a little less powder than other bullets.

To end the shoot with the 470, I went back to the H4831 loads for one more shot just to note recoil difference. No doubt about it, it was a noticeable increase in felt recoil.

Thanks to those who previously posted on the thread, it took a lot of work out of the equation. Now I just have to dial in a load using the Norma brass.

Your 3031 load was around 62-68 lbs of felt recoil. Your 4831 load was around 102lbs.

4831 sucks, the goofy ballistic nuts are so anti-wad and they love powders that fill the cases for “optimal accuracy” they always push 4831. It’s a nasty, teeth jarring experience. It’s also excellent at blowing up vintage guns due to the pressure curve being so much further down the barrel where the metal is thinner.

 

[Wahoo]

Nothing new to add to this thread, but I did finally get to the range today to try out some IMR3031 loads. I normally use Norma brass, but I try to use other brass for practice or initial load development. So in this case I had some old Jamison brass that was ready to load.

Sparing too many boring details. I started today's round with some 500gr North Forks loaded with H4831 which were right in the bullseye at 25 yards as expected. I then started with the IMR3031 loads with the same bullets using a single Kynoch wad.

These loads printed about 3/4" lower with respect to the H4831 loads but in line with the horizontal axis. And has been noted, recoil was noticeably less. You still know you're shooting a big boy, but considerably more pleasant.

If I had to pick a load that I shot as best, it would be the 77gr load. But honestly the 76 and 78 grain loads would all work fine at buffalo/elephant distance. So maybe a grain or two less than what others have seen, but that falls in line with what I normally find in the Northfork bonded core soft points usually use a little less powder than other bullets.

To end the shoot with the 470, I went back to the H4831 loads for one more shot just to note recoil difference. No doubt about it, it was a noticeable increase in felt recoil.

Thanks to those who previously posted on the thread, it took a lot of work out of the equation. Now I just have to dial in a load using the Norma brass.

That sounds about same as I’ve experienced. I was at 77.5 grains of 3031 and a kynoch wad with a swift a frame and got exactly 2100 fps and one hole regulation at 55 yds out of my .470.

DRAMATIC decrease in felt recoil vs any other powder combo I’ve tried.