.470 NE Reloads and Fillers?

[rookhawk]

I just ran QL for RL 15.5 and was surprised to see at 87 grains of powder produced 2092 FPS at only 36700 PSI well below the 39,000 PMax

“Hot rodding” double rifle calibers is wrought with perils. The goal is to match the original regulation of the gun, not to glean additional velocity. The biggest issue with using modern powders in these calibers that were designed for stranded cordite is that they do not fill the case sufficiently. That in turn leaves us with a variety of stuffings from dacron, to rod backer, to wads, etc. Each of those stuffings creates a different pressure that cannot be calculated effectively by Quickload or extrapolation.

I know it wasn’t/isn’t your intention to do so, but just putting this out as a public service announcement. Sometimes people buy single shots in dangerous game rimmed calibers from 450-400 to 470NE. This in turn has them thinking of just how hot they can load the rounds since they aren’t worried about regulation. This is where dangerous thinking collides with powders that don’t fill the case requiring stuffing.

 

[zephyr]

The data below on fillers and pressures were compiled by Michael458 and can be seen on the B&M Rifles web site

 

[Rare Breed]

I just ran QL for RL 15.5 and was surprised to see at 87 grains of powder produced 2092 FPS at only 36700 PSI well below the 39,000 PMax

When you read up on the RL 15.5 versus RL 15 you see it is a slower burning powder producing more velocity at lower pressures

 

[Rare Breed]

“Hot rodding” double rifle calibers is wrought with perils. The goal is to match the original regulation of the gun, not to glean additional velocity. The biggest issue with using modern powders in these calibers that were designed for stranded cordite is that they do not fill the case sufficiently. That in turn leaves us with a variety of stuffings from dacron, to rod backer, to wads, etc. Each of those stuffings creates a different pressure that cannot be calculated effectively by Quickload or extrapolation.

I know it wasn’t/isn’t your intention to do so, but just putting this out as a public service announcement. Sometimes people buy single shots in dangerous game rimmed calibers from 450-400 to 470NE. This in turn has them thinking of just how hot they can load the rounds since they aren’t worried about regulation. This is where dangerous thinking collides with powders that don’t fill the case requiring stuffing.

Very good points. You are correct, not my intention at all to hot rod loads. I wanted to at least hit 2050 FPS as I have found this seems to be the regulated loads for all the doubles I have owned. I talked to JJ about it given he is re-regulating my 470 shortly. I gave him the option of IMR4831 or RL15.5. He told me to choose the RL15.5 and keep it below 2070 FPS. In doing that, I get a case fill of 79%. I think I still need a filler with that. The pressure comes in, to your point, without knowing how much pressure the filler adds below 35,000 PSI. With a PMAX of over 39,000 I should be okay. The IMR4831 did not need a filler to hit the 2050 FPS yet the felt recoil would be higher.

 

[Rare Breed]

Hello All!

I'm proud to announce that I've recently acquired a .470 NE Double (Krieghoff) for puposes of a buffalo/tuskless elephant hunt next year in Zimbabwe.

Well, maybe I should have checked the ammo prices first!!

I'll definitely be reloading over the next year for purposes of practicing and maybe taking one of those safari shooting courses. However, I'm having a hard time finding some good recipes for reloading the 470 NE so I have few requests/questions:

- Can anyone share theirs?
- I've never used a filler (aside from wads in shotgun reloading) so can anyone please explain how to use apply/use it (how much - when it hits the top?) which brand and where do I get it?
- What is the best primer for this tame cannon?
- And any other advice or information that you care to share.

Many thanks!!

Sergio

Moderators, please forgive me and delete if I am not supposed to share Quick Load runs on our public forum. I would never break our rules I just can not find any rule about this when I go into search to try to find one. Double check this data, never rely on loads from the internet. I found different much lower QL safe pressures when I ran both RL 15.5 and IMR 4831 to hit my desired FPS of 2,050 FPS. Please see attached. As you can see both the RL 15.5 hits my 2050 FPS at under 35,000 PSI and IMR 4831 also hits the 2050 FPS at under 34,000 PSI. However notice it takes 10 more grains of powder for the IMR which from what I have learned does increase felt recoil even at the almost exact FPS. Welcome everyone's thoughts. I still cannot find anything that helps me understand if with the RL 15.5 coming in at 80% case fill if I still need a filler, I have tons of Kynoch ones while the IMR 4831 coming in at 90% case fill?

Thoughts?

 

[rookhawk]

Very good points. You are correct, not my intention at all to hot rod loads. I wanted to at least hit 2050 FPS as I have found this seems to be the regulated loads for all the doubles I have owned. I talked to JJ about it given he is re-regulating my 470 shortly. I gave him the option of IMR4831 or RL15.5. He told me to choose the RL15.5 and keep it below 2070 FPS. In doing that, I get a case fill of 79%. I think I still need a filler with that. The pressure comes in, to your point, without knowing how much pressure the filler adds below 35,000 PSI. With a PMAX of over 39,000 I should be okay. The IMR4831 did not need a filler to hit the 2050 FPS yet the felt recoil would be higher.

Just curious, since you’re having the wedge regulated on the gun, why did you choose RL15.5 instead of 3031 or RL15?

 

[Rare Breed]

The RL 15.5 is said by alliance to be much more temperature stable generating more consistent velocity and pressures. I did think long and hard about using the IMR 3031 but decided to potentially sell it with the 500 NE since it may be personally picked up by the buyer

 

[DrBob]

“Hot rodding” double rifle calibers is wrought with perils. The goal is to match the original regulation of the gun, not to glean additional velocity. The biggest issue with using modern powders in these calibers that were designed for stranded cordite is that they do not fill the case sufficiently. That in turn leaves us with a variety of stuffings from dacron, to rod backer, to wads, etc. Each of those stuffings creates a different pressure that cannot be calculated effectively by Quickload or extrapolation.

I know it wasn’t/isn’t your intention to do so, but just putting this out as a public service announcement. Sometimes people buy single shots in dangerous game rimmed calibers from 450-400 to 470NE. This in turn has them thinking of just how hot they can load the rounds since they aren’t worried about regulation. This is where dangerous thinking collides with powders that don’t fill the case requiring stuffing.

There is an intrinsic limiter to hot rodding a double. Regulation. A danger can also be found when scope a double and changing the mass and balance of the rifle. Some publications have stated to sight in the double to use just one barrel....oops.

 

[DrBob]

The data below on fillers and pressures were compiled by Michael458 and can be seen on the B&M Rifles web site View attachment 526502

Depends on the amount a dacron. That is a significant factor. Too much compression by the wad boosts pressure. Considering the dynamics of ignition, all that is really sought after is keeping the powder column coherent particularly at the area around the primer hole. While a dacron stuffed pillow is cheap, going with open cell backer rod is the best way to go.

 

[DrBob]

Moderators, please forgive me and delete if I am not supposed to share Quick Load runs on our public forum. I would never break our rules I just can not find any rule about this when I go into search to try to find one. Double check this data, never rely on loads from the internet. I found different much lower QL safe pressures when I ran both RL 15.5 and IMR 4831 to hit my desired FPS of 2,050 FPS. Please see attached. As you can see both the RL 15.5 hits my 2050 FPS at under 35,000 PSI and IMR 4831 also hits the 2050 FPS at under 34,000 PSI. However notice it takes 10 more grains of powder for the IMR which from what I have learned does increase felt recoil even at the almost exact FPS. Welcome everyone's thoughts. I still cannot find anything that helps me understand if with the RL 15.5 coming in at 80% case fill if I still need a filler, I have tons of Kynoch ones while the IMR 4831 coming in at 90% case fill?

Thoughts?

Federal uses Rl15, but with the unobtainable 216 primer. Not using that primer will incur hang fires. I bought some cases that had been Fed safari ammo which werer taken down for components. Those cases had a Fed primer with a lime green color... I tested the primers and they were "hotter" than the purple 251s.... likely 216s. While Rl15 is a favorite, any medium powder or slower will work if loaded correctly. I have good success with Varget which is temp insensitive. Rl16 and Rl17 would be good. Big Game I have tried. With so many good temp insensitive powders out there... that is the way to go. I know that when working up loads for Africa while in Alaska, temp will not be a problem like in the old cordite days.

 

[rookhawk]

The RL 15.5 is said by alliance to be much more temperature stable generating more consistent velocity and pressures. I did think long and hard about using the IMR 3031 but decided to potentially sell it with the 500 NE since it may be personally picked up by the buyer

Whats the charge weight difference and the recoil difference on an 11lb gun at your target velocity comparing 3031 to RL15.5?

 

[DrBob]

Whats the charge weight difference and the recoil difference on an 11lb gun at your target velocity comparing 3031 to RL15.5?

3031 is so problematic that it should.. it must be abandoned as a powder for large bore doubles. RL15 is much safer to use. All the major powder manufacturers now have better temp insensitive powders available for use. RL15 predates the major push to temp insensitive powders. RL15 works and is well understood. Using RL15 as the fastest" powder and use the burn chart to give an idea of what is slower to also choose from. Just remember, the slower the powder the greater the felt recoil as you are projecting the bullet mass and the powder mass out the barrel. I consider the sweet spot to be between 4350 and 4831 for the 470.

 

[perttime]

The data below on fillers and pressures were compiled by Michael458 and can be seen on the B&M Rifles web site View attachment 526502

I'm surprised how much of a difference in pressure the different fillers make.

 

[DrBob]

I'm surprised how much of a difference in pressure the different fillers make.

If it wasn't for the recoil, a slow powder with a column creating a mild compression of the load would be the best.... but that winds up in over 110..more like 115 to 120 grains in a 470... that is 500 grain bullet and over 110 grains of powder out the snout. Ouch.

 

[Rare Breed]

Whats the charge weight difference and the recoil difference on an 11lb gun at your target velocity comparing 3031 to RL15.5?

Don’t know yet. Will let you know when I shoot the 15.5. It will be interesting to see if there is a noticeable difference or not

 

[rookhawk]

3031 is so problematic that it should.. it must be abandoned as a powder for large bore doubles. RL15 is much safer to use. All the major powder manufacturers now have better temp insensitive powders available for use. RL15 predates the major push to temp insensitive powders. RL15 works and is well understood. Using RL15 as the fastest" powder and use the burn chart to give an idea of what is slower to also choose from. Just remember, the slower the powder the greater the felt recoil as you are projecting the bullet mass and the powder mass out the barrel. I consider the sweet spot to be between 4350 and 4831 for the 470.

That’s crazy talk, @DrBob , with all due respect. IMR3031 is the closest replica of Cordite that exists today. It regulates very well in most guns, it has one of the lowest if not the lowest recoil of any double rifle powder, and its the one experts such as Ken Owen and Ross Seyfried recommend.

I was able to reduce my recoil by 20 foot pounds using 3031 instead of 4831, and nearly that much of a reduction for 4350 also. That being said, in my gun 4831 was the very best regulating load in that they appear that they’ll run parallel to about infinity (exactly muzzle width apart and not crossing at 60 paces), but it was only slight worse with 3031 so I went with that.

 

[rookhawk]

Just checked my data:

On my rifle, I get regulation with 77gr of 3031 or at 107gr of 4831.

58lbs of recoil with 3031
71.3lbs of recoil with 4831

In my gun, neither RL15 nor IMR4350 would regulate.

 

[Rare Breed]

That’s crazy talk, @DrBob , with all due respect. IMR3031 is the closest replica of Cordite that exists today. It regulates very well in most guns, it has one of the lowest if not the lowest recoil of any double rifle powder, and its the one experts such as Ken Owen and Ross Seyfried recommend.

I was able to reduce my recoil by 20 foot pounds using 3031 instead of 4831, and nearly that much of a reduction for 4350 also. That being said, in my gun 4831 was the very best regulating load in that they appear that they’ll run parallel to about infinity (exactly muzzle width apart and not crossing at 60 paces), but it was only slight worse with 3031 so I went with that.

Agree. Never have had any problem with IMR 3031. Ken Owen always build my regulation loads using it. Also incredible value if bought today and yes it is available

 

[DrBob]

That’s crazy talk, @DrBob , with all due respect. IMR3031 is the closest replica of Cordite that exists today. It regulates very well in most guns, it has one of the lowest if not the lowest recoil of any double rifle powder, and its the one experts such as Ken Owen and Ross Seyfried recommend.

I was able to reduce my recoil by 20 foot pounds using 3031 instead of 4831, and nearly that much of a reduction for 4350 also. That being said, in my gun 4831 was the very best regulating load in that they appear that they’ll run parallel to about infinity (exactly muzzle width apart and not crossing at 60 paces), but it was only slight worse with 3031 so I went with that.

I stand by my position. I am not alone in this statement. South Africa's Magnum magazine editor, Gregor Woods also so stated. Ross Seyfried used RL15 in his 470 article on the Ruger No.1 Bowen conversion (I own a Bowen 470). 3031 is temp sensitive... not as crazy as cordite (which was down loaded 5 grains at Eley to compensate for GB versus Africa temps)

Graeme Wright didn't even consider 3031 in his book. .. page 86 in third edition.. the page discusses 3031 and it's problems... but I will leave this to his second from the bottom paragraph.."This is just to say that it is not suitable for large cases." 3031 was used long ago because it "matched" cordite grain per grain and similar "speed" but as Wright notes the burn characteristics of cordite and IMR 3031 are much different. 3031 is too fickle and can cause erratic pressure problems including detonation.

None and I mean... NONE... of the present reloading texts, whether from powder companies or bullet makers list 3031 in their loads. Kynock and Federal use RL15. 3031s time has passed and for good reason. Continuing the use 3031 is one's choice, but not even a good choice when better powders are better and safer.

 

[cajunchefray]

The data below on fillers and pressures were compiled by Michael458 and can be seen on the B&M Rifles web site View attachment 526502

This is good quantifiable data. It helped me ascertain that foam backer rod, does not create big pressure gains like Dacron, Grits, Israeli Couscous, Tapioca Pearls, Semolina, Japanese Sushi rice, Cornmeal, Sawdust (just joking!), and is a good filler in cases.
Many that are 100x more experienced than me use this. Foam backer rods, cut to the correct size just works.

While not a .470 NE, My experience is with the 450/400 Nitro 3", but the outcomes are similar. The cartridges have a similar conformation of case, neck down, and bullet weight; as a relatable factor. Sabatti (not a butchered one), regulated with HORNADY 400 SP, about 10 years ago.

Over that 10-year span, Hornady has loaded different powders, but I don't know which.
With a slow burning charge of VN-165 at 87 grains, no wads or filler, I was getting close to regulation, but the recoil sucked.

Then I got some Reloder 15, foam backer wads, at 65 grains (Graeme Wrights load is max 66 grains in his TEST rifles) and the rifle is on the money. Given that this is a .410 bore, I buy the 1/2-inch backer foam rods, cut to .90-inch length. Twist them down a bit, seat with a #2 Pencil eraser, seat the bullet and all good. This holds the powder column sufficiently, no air space, and works.

Cleaning After Shooting Foam Back Wads:

Have not noticed a bit of an issue with residue. At first, I was a bit skeptical, and inspected rifle bores carefully. Down in South Louisiana, I am used to dealing with Shotgun plastic wad residue from high brass/charge shells.

No issue at all.

The case capacity, versus case fill of powder is the area to focus. If the case is less than 85% full (some may say 90% and I have no argument with that), then use a foam backing wad. It is too easy, and you have reliable ignition and consistent ballistics.

Referencing the pressure chart above from Michael 458, there is no downside to foam fillers.