.458 Win Mag Shotshell Loads

[MedRiver]

Excellent info. Thanks. A few of those in my scabbard would likely keep the troops eating grouse!

 

[Riflecrank]

Simple as this, crammed full of shot and an inverted gas check firmly crimped over the top,
and a thin card wad between shot and 18.5 grains of Blue Dot, and any LR or LRM primer:

 

[Riflecrank]

I hardly expect to improve on simple for the purpose.
I did try another trick, but never shot them, still sitting here waiting for a pattern board at 10 yards:

Get rid of the cap on the shot capsule and you can get just over 500 grains of #7-1/2 shot with just a little protrusion of the delicate plastic shot capsule.
Even more weight and better patterning with #8 shot, just to perseverate on that point.

Now the round ball in a sabot awaits, to duplicate Davy Crockett's first rifle, Betsy, a .40-cal shooting a .395-caliber ball.

An inverted gas check could also be used to seal the sabot-ball load at mouth of case.
If it works out, I'll need a "Gemmer .458 WIN MAG" for BP loads, with a ramrod and a blow tube for wiping the barrel between shots at deer and squirrels.
The two-capsule shot shell load is a joke.
Hahaha.

 

[mgstucson]

When I make such rounds, mostly in brass case 410 loads for my 3" 410 revolver (but also some for 357, 44mag, and 500 S&W shotshell loads), I use 2 gas checks. One on top of the card wad over the powder. This gas check is in standard orientation, and can help scrape lead off the rifling. Then the shot, then the seal on top. (I really like the capsules, but I also like the inverted gas check on top.) I think someone else said it already, but if you use a shot cup, it tends to rotate the shot column all together going down the barrel and then makes patterns worse. I have thought to experiment by putting a roll of paper around the inside of the case before you add the shot, but I don't know how it would effect the pattern.

For knocking around in my pocket in Africa, I think I would use the inverted gas check on top with a good round-over crimp and a little glue around the edge. I would be afraid the plastic capsules might get crushed in my pocket.

They pattern well enough in my short revolver barrels for snakes and pests, but I would have never thought they would pattern that well in a long rifled barrel. This opens a lot of possibilities.

Thanks again for sharing all the info. I will definitely keep it in my files on shotshells.

 

[Warbeast]

Hm.
Would a 458 lott smoothbore SxS be so unaccurate out to 100?

Thst would be a sweet do it all rifle.

 

[Red Leg]

That is the idea, you get it, unlike Red Leg.

You are correct. I neither get nor have any imaginable use for a .458 bird or snake gun. I am trying to imagine the reaction of a PH as his neophyte client tries to chase down a black mamba or get within thirty feet of guineafowl.

 

[Red Leg]

Hm.
Would a 458 lott smoothbore SxS be so unaccurate out to 100?

Thst would be a sweet do it all rifle.

It would be an interesting small game approach - essentially a .410? I assume it would have be a round ball or mini-slug projectile because an elongated bullet design would tumble. Back in the day, a .45 round ball was considered a pretty good squirrel load.

 

[Boone66]

Boone66,
Do you have a smoothbore 444 Marlin.
If not, you are in same boat as a rifled .458 WIN MAG.

No, but I do have a single shot 410/45 pistol, so I know a little about it and have loaded and patterned 44 mag shot shells. I have not loaded or patterned loads without a shot cup, I may give that a try in my 45-70s. I was giving you ideas from my knowledge, not as a argument.

 

[Riflecrank]

Boone66,
I have the Taurus Judges (2-1/2" and 3" versions) and a S&W Governor (2-1/2")/45 LC.
Similarly nice to have it all in one gun with the .458 WIN MAG rifle: El Presidente.
Better than a paradox 12-bore if a grizzly jumps you while potting a ptarmigan
if your magazine is loaded with wunderbullets from CEB or Hammer
while you single load the shot shell for the pot.

Not everyone is going to be on a luxury hunt in Africa with a PH for babysitter.
If so, be ready for elephant with CEB Safari Solids in the magazine while stalking that guinea fowl.

 

[Riflecrank]

mgstucson,

When I first tried it, I used a second gas check as the over-powder wad.
Thinking it might scrape lead too.
But I found patterns were much better without it.
It may act as a spreader smacking the shot in the rear.
And does it go sideways while going down the bore or only after it leaves the muzzle ?
Just a thin card wad over powder was better, and the one inverted gas check
roll-crimped at case mouth over a full shot charge.
I like the idea of some glue around the edge of the case mouth/gas check.
Maybe fingernail polish or primer sealant, on primer too.
The shot shells will be carried a lot for the occasional use.
Yes, protruding shot capsules are too delicate.

 

[Riflecrank]

Commercial shot capsule loads for revolvers use #9 shot for snakes.
That might kill a guinea at 10 yards.
Aim for the head.
No donut holes in the pattern.
Beyond 10 yards, just take its head off with the .458 WIN MAG bullet.

 

[mgstucson]

A 45-70 HR Handi Rifle reamed out to 45-100 to near match 458 WM ballistics or even 45-120, with some heavy loaded 45-100 ammo for bear/moose protection, some light loaded 45-70 ammo for deer, some shotshells for birds and a 22lr barrel insert and ammo for squirrels would be just about perfect for a break down, limited space, survival package to keep in the airplane, car trunk, saddle bag, lunch box or backpack for Alaska or other remote regions. It would be a mother lover to shoot with full house 45-100 loads, but better than being eaten by a bear or stomped by a momma moose. Not bad for a one gun, bear, moose, deer, grouse, squirrel option. If shot shells would work for a 458 WM, it will work for a 45-100. Also not bad for a one gun 458 WM buff rifle/stubborn black mamba on the only clear ground between you and the truck at dark after a long day on the track option either. Are there other options? Sure. I would just as soon send that snake to black mamba heaven and go on to supper, no muss, no fuss, and a 458 WM might be a little overkill for the task at hand.

Nobody is talking having a black mamba rodeo, or a 458 WM wing shooting extravaganza while on a buff hunt with the PH twittling his thumbs. We're talking about having a few rounds in an ammo wallet that will probably not be used, but might come in handy. If you don't want to do it ... DON'T !!!! If you want to ... GO FOR IT !!!! To each his own. Live and let live. YMMV. I MIGHT.

 

[Riflecrank]

.45-100 Sharps Winchester Throated

That .45-2.6" with a .458 WIN MAG throat on it is called a ".45-70 ELKO MAGNUM,"
listed in C.I.P. long before I thought I invented it.
They use same loads as .458 WIN MAG for powder charge and bullet, just 0.100" longer COL.
Got two of them on Ruger No. 1 rifles.
22" is a re-chambered .45-70.

28" has a take-off Pedersoli barrel.

Yep, they can out-Quigley a Quigley.

 

[Boone66]

mgstucson,

When I first tried it, I used a second gas check as the over-powder wad.
Thinking it might scrape lead too.
But I found patterns were much better without it.
It may act as a spreader smacking the shot in the rear.
And does it go sideways while going down the bore or only after it leaves the muzzle ?
Just a thin card wad over powder was better, and the one inverted gas check
roll-crimped at case mouth over a full shot charge.
I like the idea of some glue around the edge of the case mouth/gas check.
Maybe fingernail polish or primer sealant, on primer too.
The shot shells will be carried a lot for the occasional use.
Yes, protruding shot capsules are too delicate.

I use water glass to seal over shot cards

 

[MedRiver]

Can you explain the water glass method? Not familiar with that.

Thanks

 

[cajunchefray]

A 45-70 HR Handi Rifle reamed out to 45-100 to near match 458 WM ballistics or even 45-120, with some heavy loaded 45-100 ammo for bear/moose protection, some light loaded 45-70 ammo for deer, some shotshells for birds and a 22lr barrel insert and ammo for squirrels would be just about perfect for a break down, limited space, survival package to keep in the airplane, car trunk, saddle bag, lunch box or backpack for Alaska or other remote regions. It would be a mother lover to shoot with full house 45-100 loads, but better than being eaten by a bear or stomped by a momma moose. Not bad for a one gun, bear, moose, deer, grouse, squirrel option. If shot shells would work for a 458 WM, it will work for a 45-100. Also not bad for a one gun 458 WM buff rifle/stubborn black mamba on the only clear ground between you and the truck at dark after a long day on the track option either. Are there other options? Sure. I would just as soon send that snake to black mamba heaven and go on to supper, no muss, no fuss, and a 458 WM might be a little overkill for the task at hand.

Nobody is talking having a black mamba rodeo, or a 458 WM wing shooting extravaganza while on a buff hunt with the PH twittling his thumbs. We're talking about having a few rounds in an ammo wallet that will probably not be used, but might come in handy. If you don't want to do it ... DON'T !!!! If you want to ... GO FOR IT !!!! To each his own. Live and let live. YMMV. I MIGHT.

Simple as this, crammed full of shot and an inverted gas check firmly crimped over the top,
and a thin card wad between shot and 18.5 grains of Blue Dot, and any LR or LRM primer:
View attachment 707114

What is the velocity of this load?

What are other powder options?
Thanks

 

[Boone66]

Can you explain the water glass method? Not familiar with that.

Thanks

You buy water glass and then use a dropper or bush and put it on the over shot card, it makes a water proof seal.

 

[Boone66]

Sodium silicate, water glass is what it used to be called. Clear as water and dries hard

 

[MedRiver]

Thank you! I am learning lots on this thread. Thanks

 

[Boone66]

Thank you! I am learning lots on this thread. Thanks

No problem, different people approach the same problem differently, it's nice to learn other ways to doing something