404 Jeffrey - Oh Boy, another project!

[Riflecrank]

I use .461" sized, hardcast bullets in my .458" to .459"-grooved barrels all the time.
Prefer it.
No leading or unusual behavior at all.
Chrono results are similar to what I get with .458"-diameter jacketed and monometal copper and brass,
with same charges.

You are measuring "groove diameter" as .415".
"Bore diameter" is hard to measure unless you have an expensive set of gauge pins graduated in 0.0005" to 0.001" intervals
I would happily use .418" diameter lead bullets in that barrel.
Use .416" diameter jacketed and monometal copper and brass also.

Powder-Coat Paint is recommended on the cast lead bullets. Sizing after PC-Paint works great.
The PC-Paint is like a lube on the bullet, no other lube necessary.

 

[Rez Exelon]

I use .461" sized, hardcast bullets in my .458" to .459"-grooved barrels all the time.
Prefer it.
No leading or unusual behavior at all.
Chrono results are similar to what I get with .458"-diameter jacketed and monometal copper and brass,
with same charges.

You are measuring "groove diameter" as .415".
"Bore diameter" is hard to measure unless you have an expensive set of gauge pins graduated in 0.0005" to 0.001" intervals
I would happily use .418" diameter lead bullets in that barrel.
Use .416" diameter jacketed and monometal copper and brass also.

Powder-Coat Paint is recommended on the cast lead bullets. Sizing after PC-Paint works great.
The PC-Paint is like a lube on the bullet, no other lube necessary.

Appreciate the feedback and sharing the experience. I had a feeling you might be one of the ones that would be able to chime in with a bit more experience on the topic. Guess I need to actually get those things ordered to experiment. Considering I've got three in 416 I guess it won't hurt to buy the value pack. If they don't solve my issue here I bet the 416 Rem or 416 Taylor would eat them up since I've got to get back to those projects at some point too.

 

[Rez Exelon]

So circling back to this thread, I started cleaning the garage and reloading area, and for better or worse I'm back to dealing with the project.

Talked to CH4D regarding dies today, and after checking a series of measurements, they've advised the believe the dies were made back in a time when brass walls were thicker. Or at least whatever brass they used to blueprint the dies was thicker. My measurements were taken with a piece of vintage RWS brass and a new manufacture Hornady brass (which it killed me to take the 404 Jeffery round apart, but it is what it is):

RWS:
Outer Diameter - .439
Wall Measure 1 - .011
Wall Measure 2 - .012
Inner Diameter - .416

On the Hornady:

Outer Diameter - .441
Wall Measure 1 - .013
Wall Measure 2 - .013
Inner Diameter - .415

So the Hornady brass is definitely a bit thicker, but not enough to get neck tension. Both of those are showing below what I think is the neck thickness of .449. Another aspect that I've measured is that after shoving a lead projo through the barrel, it measures out at .416.

So all that said, could the solution to this problem just be to acquire and use the 400ish grain.418 lead projectiles like Hunter Supply sells? To be honest I don't think I've ever wondered if shoving a .418 projo through a .416 opening is a terrible idea or not enough to matter.

 

[Riflecrank]

.418" is the proper sizing of cast bullets for best accuracy and least fouling of a .416"-grooved rifle barrel
using hardcast lead bullets
in the BHN range of 15 to 25
with smokeless powder loads.
Grease-grooved or PC-painted.
Gas-checked or plain-base.

Soft lead and black powder is different.

For sure, all the above.

 

[Tintin]

@Rez Exelon

You may have already tried this - but sometimes removing the expander from the resizing die may fix the insufficient neck tension.

 

[Rez Exelon]

@Rez Exelon

You may have already tried this - but sometimes removing the expander from the resizing die may fix the insufficient neck tension.

Yeah, hate to say, that was tested early on. One mystery I've never resolved though is that there may have been a third die lost somewhere along the way before it got to me. The box of dies was labeled "2 of 2" and included a mystery decap rod/expander that doesn't fit the marked FL sizer die. So maybe there was a different sizing die to different specs? Contradicting that theory the CH4D site lists that they only offer one set and it's a two die, so I dunno. I think I almost have to find some .418 cast to try next.

Somewhere in the past I did rig up a test though that I've probably brought up in the thread before. I took a 416 rigby die and used that to bring the neck in far enough to seat the bullet. Idea being that if I need fired brass to send to Hornady or a maker for custom dies, that seems like the way to get it. Basically I set up the die waaaaay out of the threads, and then would slowly work it downward checking constantly to see when the sizing got to the shoulder. NGL though, I haven't had a chance to test this since I kind of want someone at the range with me when I try it.

 

[Rez Exelon]

Thinking out loud here, one thing I realized tonight is that the previous owners load information is on the box, and they specifically note that they built loads with a 350gr Hawk bullet. Maybe that bullet is slightly oversized? I don't know but as I think it's worth chasing down, I sent an email over to the company to see if they had any insights. Looks like the date on the box says it was made in Y2K so I'm not holding my breath that anyone would be around from that era to remember it, but hey, it's a lead worth chasing right??

 

[Tintin]

Thinking out loud here, one thing I realized tonight is that the previous owners load information is on the box, and they specifically note that they built loads with a 350gr Hawk bullet. Maybe that bullet is slightly oversized? I don't know but as I think it's worth chasing down, I sent an email over to the company to see if they had any insights. Looks like the date on the box says it was made in Y2K so I'm not holding my breath that anyone would be around from that era to remember it, but hey, it's a lead worth chasing right??

What a mission.

;-(

Good luck with it all.

 

[BTP-KennethWRoyce]

The brake is a great feature. Screw off and put a thread-protector cap on the muzzle, ad lib.
Iron sights ? As old as I am, I would rather have a QD scope with backup scope or red dot in my kit ready to go. To each his own, your mileage may vary, etc.

If it is a simple neck-down of the 404 Jeffery case to .416 bullet:
A .416 Dakota reamer will clean it up and handloading dies for that are available from Redding.

View attachment 592382

I glued on a .416 Dakota and a .423 Dakota to this souvenir cartridge board that I picked up on a visit to Dakota Arms in Sturgis, SD, bought my Redding .416 Dakota and .423 Dakota dies on that visit too, about 20 years ago.
That was not long before then-new CEO upstart Charlie Kokesh bankrupted the old company.

View attachment 592384

Regarding Charlie Kokesh, you don't know the half of it. I knew some Dakota Arms staff back then (shop floor and office), and things were horrible. Employees held on as long as they could out of sheer loyalty to DA and hope for a buyout.