400 Whelen

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

@MedRiver,
Thank you so much for the posts. The blank basic 30-06 brass solves problems for 375 Whelen and for 400 Whelen. I have about 100 head stamped basic cases for 400 Whelen, but I haven'tbeen able to find any for the 375 Whelen. The field reports and pictures also much appreciated. I believe a 400gr would have broken the neck.

Thanks again


I swage bullets. You can make cup and core, partitions with bonded cores, open tips, soft points, FMJ. Anything with a bonded core whether partition or FMJ will likely retain nearly all their weight.

All these bullets are .416.

This picture shows the steps to swaging. Left to Right - Copper Tube (for jacket), Lead Core swaged into jacket, Finished Soft Point, Finished Open Tip

View attachment 744595




4Secant Spitzer Ogive - L to R - 320gr Soft Point, 350gr Open Tip, 400gr Open Tip, All made with copper tubing jacket.

View attachment 744596





4Secant Flat Tip Ogive - L to R - 415gr Flat Tip Soft Point, 325gr Flat Open Tip, both made with 308 brass for jacket.

View attachment 744597




1-1/8 Elliptical (Round Nose) Ogive - L to R - 330gr Soft Point, 315gr Open Tip, both made with 308 brass for jacket. (You can still see annealing marks on brass. The entire case must be annealed before using as a jacket.

View attachment 744602

Since swaging dies are expensive and I shoot both 416 Ruger and 400 Whelen, I swage the bullets 416 diameter and then reduce as mentioned above. With jacketed bullets, you can reduce a maximum of 7-8 thousandths of an inch before concentricity and accuracy begin to suffer much. For lead bullet about half that. So from ,416 to .411 is no problem for hunting bullets.

@mgstucson
What is your jacket thickness and do you skive the inside to aid expansion.
Just curious
Bob

 

[mgstucson]

1. On the copper tubing, it can start out .050, 035, or .025 (depending if you use Type K, L or M tubing) when in cylinder form, when you swage a point on it, it gets a little thicker at the point. I have cutters to skive the inside of the jacket into a tapered thickness thinning at the mouth, or I can press the cutter straight into the mouth of the jacket and score 4 or 6 lines down the inside of jacket to start expansion at those points, or I can do both.

Barnes originals and many other bullets in the 1960's used copper tubing jackets.

*****They say Fred Barnes starting out in the 1930's used to drive one end of a 20 foot piece of copper tubing into a tapered hole in a steel plate. Once enough of the tube was through the steel plate, he would chain the plate to a tree, and chain the end of the tube to his car, and use the car to pull the tube through the plate to draw it down to the correct diameter for the jackets he wanted to make. This would not only size the tube, but would simultaneously work harden the copper at the same time. Then he would cut the drawn, hardened tube into jacket lengths, and swage'm up in his basement. Just a blast from the past on a little swaging trivia.****

2. If I use cartridge brass for the jacket, the cartridge brass usually starts out around .011 at the mouth and gets progressively thicker toward the base, and of course becomes solid brass at what was the case head. The entire cartridge case has to be annealed before you can swage that solid brass case head down to jacket diameter. Cartridge brass does not need skiving, but you can still score the inside of the mouth if you want. The solid brass case head on the cartridge cases becomes the base of the bullet. That can help accuracy on high pressure cartridges with long bullets where the base of the bullet tends to obturate (deform) slightly as the base leaves the case mouth and front of the bullet is being crammed into the rifling of the barrel when fired.

3. Commercial guilding metal jackets (as used in most factory bullets today) can be ordered in different wall thickness, but they are generally about .015 at the case mouth, then progress to about .020 at the base, depending on who makes the bullet jacket (Sierra, J4, Hines, Center X, or Corbins). All the above options can be used on these guilding metal jackets to encourage expansion as well.

4. You can also hollow point the lead core, Make a large vacant space under the open tip, fill the tip with frangible material like tungsten powder or shot (which is more dense than lead BTW) fill tip with #13 lead shot, make unbonded partitions, half bonded partitions, full bonded partitions, break away partitions, etc,

The ways to encourage, limit, insure or preclude expansion when you make your own bullets are many and varied.

 

[McDoone]

This is just a “what if” question. The 450/400 has a very reliable reputation on dangerous game in Africa. Thats promoted the interest in the 400 Whelen. My question is directed towards improving the Winchester 1895 for this use. The Miroku seems to be amply strong enough for 06 type ammo, having been chambered for the .270 Winchester with its 65000 lb operating pressure. (They didn’t sell, so they pulled it).
What if…this was rechambered for the 400 Whelen with the original correct shoulder (rather than the one that was screwed up later) and then run 9.3x74 brass? Only critical difference is the 9.3 has a 5.25 rim rather than the 5.45 of the 405. Would the rifle work with the smaller rim. The Whelen actually makes the required power with a 400 grain bullet quite easily as you all know.
And having been in a dangerous situation that I solved with a lever, I’ve never forgotten how effortless it was to empty a full magazine at ten feet.

 

[MedRiver]

I guess the question would be....why not just run the .400 Whelen as-is and not mess with the rimmed brass since the action is aleady set-up to feed non-rimmed .30-06 based cases?

Or do you already have a .405 Winchester you are looking to modify?

 

[McDoone]

That’s a great point! And I considered that, it’s obviously the best option. But these rifles, while available are super rare in my area. Sometimes you take what is there. And you can’t find anyone here willing to do barrel work on these guns. Although I admit I can’t say for sure. They sure don’t want to touch the BLR. The BLR is probably an easier option, especially for the Whelen.
Anyway it’s just an exercise. I wondered if anyone had considered this. I don’t plan on going to Africa, I have a few years left where I could, but….

 

[mgstucson]

Ed Stevenson, a famous Alaskan Brown Bear guide for more than 40 years, used 2 Browning 1895's for backing hunters for Brown Bear, one in 375 Scovill and one in 411 Hawk. These are basically a 375 Whelen and a 400 Whelen with shorter necks. Another Alaskan guide, Jim Wagget, used a USRAC Model 1895 in 9.3x62. Stevenson also frequently used a Browning 1886 in 45-70 for follow-up work, and was known to carry a Marlin GG in 45-70 for bear protection when in town while walking his dogs. He got mauled in a surprise attack from less than 10 yards by and unwounded bear while he was helping a client pack out a bear the client just killed. He was mauled after hitting the bear in the chest with a 375 H&H from a bolt action rifle. The client shot the bear while it was attacking Ed, and finally killed the bear when it turned from Ed to the hunter. Some time after that he switched to lever actions for his backing rifle and did so until he retired.

 

[McDoone]

That’s great information! My very first big game experience when I was 17 was a predator control effort. I wound up at 10 feet from a very large black bear, and large even for here. We spotted each other at the same instant and I remember only that I fired more than once with the borrowed 30-30. When we left, we discovered the gun was empty. It had started full.
I’m now using a bolt, after many years with a Remington semi, and I often think of that experience and try to simulate it in dry fire practice. It’s not easy, and I think it’s doing something to my shoulder. That lever was just easy.
I am using a 35 Whelen which I am very happy with, especially the accuracy and velocity, just not too impressed with the action. Might have to do something about it.

 

[mgstucson]

He used the Brownings as opposed to the Winchesters because the Brownings have only the half-cock safety and the new Winchesters have the newer tang safety. He did not want to accidentally flip that safety on at the wrong moment.

I have had the Rem 742. Too prone to jamming. I have switched to Rem 7600 pumps. I really like those and I am faster on target with a pump than a lever, although both are much faster than a bolt.

 

[mgstucson]

I am considering having a set of Whelen barrels (358, 375, and 400) made for one of my 7600's. It is currently a 30-06. If I could find a good gunsmith to open up the bolt face for a belted case, I would have a 7600 made in 458 WM. With that battery you could hunt the world and never need another gun, not that I wouldn't still buy other guns anyway.

 

[Daryl S]

I used Whelen brass for my .375/06IMP.
270 TSX @ 2,650fps.
300gr. Interbond @ 2,472fps

 

[McDoone]

I am considering having a set of Whelen barrels (358, 375, and 400) made for one of my 7600's. It is currently a 30-06. If I could find a good gunsmith to open up the bolt face for a belted case, I would have a 7600 made in 458 WM. With that battery you could hunt the world and never need another gun, not that I wouldn't still buy other guns anyway.

While Browning chambered the BAR for a number of Magnums, and there was at least one rifle done aftermarket in .458 WM, I read the test in Guns and Ammo in the sixties or seventies.
I don’t believe Remington ever did a magnum with the .532 bolt face. Might have been a reason, might not. There looks to be enough steel in the bolt, but that’s one conversion I have not heard of.

 

[McDoone]

While Browning chambered the BAR for a number of Magnums, and there was at least one rifle done aftermarket in .458 WM, I read the test in Guns and Ammo in the sixties or seventies.
I don’t believe Remington ever did a magnum with the .532 bolt face. Might have been a reason, might not. There looks to be enough steel in the bolt, but that’s one conversion I have not heard of.

Actually I have never heard of a .532 bolt face conversion in a 74-7600 for any caliber. Wonder if it’s ever been done?

 

[TrippKid24]

Anybody in the .400 Whelen crowd tried loading the .410 190 gr. Hornady FTXs? Seems like quite a few folks have done various 210 gr pistol bullets.. curious if anybody has tried the 190’s.

 

[dgr416]

I tried a bunch of 41 mag bullets in my 405 wim 1895 up to 3000 fps .I have some barnes 180 gr .41 and will try them soon .Hornady xtp bullets are good one of the few hornady bullets I like .They blow the crap out of gsllon water jugs .

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

That’s great information! My very first big game experience when I was 17 was a predator control effort. I wound up at 10 feet from a very large black bear, and large even for here. We spotted each other at the same instant and I remember only that I fired more than once with the borrowed 30-30. When we left, we discovered the gun was empty. It had started full.
I’m now using a bolt, after many years with a Remington semi, and I often think of that experience and try to simulate it in dry fire practice. It’s not easy, and I think it’s doing something to my shoulder. That lever was just easy.
I am using a 35 Whelen which I am very happy with, especially the accuracy and velocity, just not too impressed with the action. Might have to do something about it.

@McDoone
What loads are you using in your Whelen, factory or handloads.
With good loods the Whelen is awesome delivering over 4,200fpe compared to factory 3,400fpe
Bob

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

I used Whelen brass for my .375/06IMP.
270 TSX @ 2,650fps.
300gr. Interbond @ 2,472fps

@Daryl S
I'm getting that out of my 35 Whelen with 275gn Woodleigh PPSP
I know it isn't a TSX.
Bob

 

[Daryl S]

I went up to 2,740fps with the TSX and that scared me, so I backed off 3 gr. That gave 2,650fps with the Barnes TSX. Expansion & extraction with that 2,740fps load was normal. Could do it with 2 fingers. Mark 10 Mauser action, PH trigger.

 

[dgr416]

I read a bunch abour the 400 whelen in Elmer Keiths books .He said it had alot of knockdown power for its size .It did usually have headdpace problens .HE shot a huge grzlzley in Alaska with the 35 whelen many times kinda verded him to more power .THE 400 whelen and 405 win are close in power .

 

[Rick HOlbert]

I read a bunch abour the 400 whelen in Elmer Keiths books .He said it had alot of knockdown power for its size .It did usually have headdpace problens .HE shot a huge grzlzley in Alaska with the 35 whelen many times kinda verded him to more power .THE 400 whelen and 405 win are close in power .

DGR, the head space problem was with later rifles. I personally knew Elmer and spoke with him about this. That was a long time ago. The original specs for the 400 Whelen chamber had sufficient shoulder to headspace properly. It may have been Griffen&Howe who built his rifle. Having a senior moment and not sure about G&H being the builder. Later chamber reamers (not clear as to why) changed the specs for the shoulder and with these there was a headspace problem at times. It's a grand cartridge and I believe it slightly out preforms the 405 but not by much. For Elk, Moose or BIG Bears in heavy brush or black timber it would be hard to beat.

 

[Daryl S]

Elmer's .35 Whelen would not have the punch of those same rifles today, due to the powers available. Should be the same for the .400 Whelen as well.
If cases are formed properly and then the shoulder is never touched, there will be no headspace trouble.
I've been told my loads are too hot, yet I've never had to "bump" a shoulder. I only neck size, or partially FL size, so that only enough of the neck is sized as needed to hold the bullet. That way, it is impossible to push a shoulder back, causing headspace problems.
Method of making cases for wildcats in larger sizes, I've found, is to neck them straight, then neck down only until the bolt will close with "some" resistance. This is called a "crush fit".
The picture displays the steps in making cases for my .375/06.