The Cannon Myth: Why I'd Rather Hit Than Bruise

Doug3006 said:

Interesting video. Especially the vintage clips! My thoughts….Neither raw kinetic energy nor precise placement are the complete solution to routinely and humanely killing large animals. It takes some of both. If cartridges were on a spectrum with the 700 NE on one end and the 7mm Mauser on the other, I reckon that the ideal DG cartridges are somewhere in the middle. I like my 416s for DG. My 458 Lott is at the top end of my recoil tolerance. I don’t own a double yet, but when I buy one it’ll be a 450/400 or 470.

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With your .416, you chose wisely, right in the middle!

I’d suggest going with the .470 if DG and elephant are on the menu. Given that you’re already comfortable with a .458, recoil shouldn’t be a major concern. And there are some rather sexy powders, like RL-15, that can make it relatively straightforward to find the right velocity and accuracy.

Hunter-Habib said:

@SStomcat

By the way, do you hail from West Bengal or Calcutta ? Your Bengali is very good !

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Neither, I’m a Bengali but born and brought up outside of Bengal

SStomcat said:

Another feather in the cap for Aimpoint P2 is they claim that it technically parallax free. The 3.5 MOA covers 3.5 in at 100 yards, 1.8 at 50 and best suited for close to medium range hunting and easy to acquire rapidly for the human eye and less prone to washout.

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The Aimpoints I use have a 2MOA dot. Better than the 3.5 MOA for distance shooting.

Rule 303 said:

The Aimpoints I use have a 2MOA dot. Better than the 3.5 MOA for distance shooting.

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Yes true, 3.5 is optimal for close distance DG shooting

Hunter-Habib said:

@SStomcat
Now, check out this other end of the spectrum. I took this big fellow yesterday.
View attachment 802324
Rifle used was a magnificent .505 Gibbs built by the late American gunsmith Jim Zahm on a Pattern 14 Winchester-Enfield action with a 22” Douglas Premium barrel, a French walnut stock, wide V backsight and uncovered ivory bead foresight.

Even though the rifle has a four round magazine capacity, the first shot (a 600Gr Northfork copper monometal flat point solid traveling at a velocity of 2150 FPS) did the hippopotamus in VERY VERY fast. He almost gave up immediately.

This marks my 52nd year since I began going on African Safaris in 1974. And out of all the calibers which I’ve been using for hunting hippopotamus so far (mostly .375 Holland & Holland Magnum, a couple with .458 Winchester Magnums, one with a .404 Jeffery, one with a .600 Nitro Express and this one with a .505 Gibbs)… hunting them with the .505 Gibbs has proven to be the most fun (it has always been a dream of mine to hunt hippopotamus on land in the sugarcane fields at night with a .505 Gibbs).

The recoil isn’t for everyone (and on a personal note, the barrel length should have been 24” for more manageable recoil). But if you can handle it, it’s one beast of a tool for stopping hippopotamus on land at close range.

PS: Just imagine. The Enfield action on this rifle is 109 years old !

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Excellent sir,

Fantastic choice of action too.

You’re making me feel like a wimp for not going any larger than a 9.3x62.

If I can ever justify the need I’d like to.

JPbowhunter said:

Excellent sir,

Fantastic choice of action too.

You’re making me feel like a wimp for not going any larger than a 9.3x62.

If I can ever justify the need I’d like to.

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Young man, you have absolutely nothing to feel like a wimp for.

A sportsman must never be judged by his (in)ability to counteract rifle recoil. Use whichever caliber you feel comfortable with. My own son will flinch if he fires anything larger than 7mm Remington Magnum.

The greatest hunter in British Malaya (Colonel Arthur Locke) bagged 19 Indo-Chinese tigers (17 cattle lifters & two man eaters) with a 9.5x57mm Mannlicher Schoenauer exclusively. I actually had lunch with this great man at Harrod’s Food Hall in London in 1965. When I asked him why he didn’t use any larger calibers, his answer was “Recoil was far too much for my nerves”.

I personally am abnormally fortunate in that the recoil of most rifle calibers does not bother me. Except for the beastly .460 Weatherby Magnum. I am borderline terrified of firing one of those things again. Recoil is most unpleasant, I find.

Hunter-Habib said:

Young man, you have absolutely nothing to feel like a wimp for.

A sportsman must never be judged by his (in)ability to counteract rifle recoil. Use whichever caliber you feel comfortable with. My own son will flinch if he fires anything larger than 7mm Remington Magnum.

The greatest hunter in British Malaya (Colonel Arthur Locke) bagged 19 Indo-Chinese tigers (17 cattle lifters & two man eaters) with a 9.5x57mm Mannlicher Schoenauer exclusively. I actually had lunch with this great man at Harrod’s Food Hall in London in 1965. When I asked him why he didn’t use any larger calibers, his answer was “Recoil was far too much for my nerves”.

I personally am abnormally fortunate in that the recoil of most rifle calibers does not bother me. Except for the beastly .460 Weatherby Magnum. I am borderline terrified of firing one of those things again. Recoil is most unpleasant, I find.

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HH, do you think a .460 Wby is so bad because it is often chambered in such light rifles. Especially those made by Weatherby.

Tdsmith517 said:

HH, do you think a .460 Wby is so bad because it is often chambered in such light rifles. Especially those made by Weatherby.

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Hi, Tdsmith517.

To be very fair, I’ve always loathed the recoil of factory Weatherby brand .460 Weatherby Magnum ammunition in factory Weatherby Mark V rifles.

In 1975, Botswana… one of my white hunters at Safari South was using a custom made .460 Weatherby Magnum built on a BRNO ZKK602 action. He was using hand loaded ammunition (500Gr Hornady soft points traveling at a velocity of 2300 FPS). I fired three shots from the rifle off-hand and found it to be perfectly comfortable to shoot. The rifle weighed 10 pounds empty and had a 26” barrel.

My personal take is that if a hunter uses hand loaded ammunition with the powder charge slightly reduced, and a rifle with proportionate weight… the .460 Weatherby Magnum will hardly have anymore unpleasant recoil than a .458 Lott or a .450 Rigby Magnum.

Hunter-Habib said:

Hi, Tdsmith517.

To be very fair, I’ve always loathed the recoil of factory Weatherby brand .460 Weatherby Magnum ammunition in factory Weatherby Mark V rifles.

In 1975, Botswana… one of my white hunters at Safari South was using a custom made .460 Weatherby Magnum built on a BRNO ZKK602 action. He was using hand loaded ammunition (500Gr Hornady soft points traveling at a velocity of 2300 FPS). I fired three shots from the rifle off-hand and found it to be perfectly comfortable to shoot. The rifle weighed 10 pounds empty and had a 26” barrel.

My personal take is that if a hunter uses hand loaded ammunition with the powder charge slightly reduced, and a rifle with proportionate weight… the .460 Weatherby Magnum will hardly have anymore unpleasant recoil than a .458 Lott or a .450 Rigby Magnum.

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I wouldn’t want to fire any .450 caliber rifle that weighs less than 10lbs honestly. You are just setting yourself up for a beat down in my opinion.

Hunter-Habib said:

Hi, Tdsmith517.

To be very fair, I’ve always loathed the recoil of factory Weatherby brand .460 Weatherby Magnum ammunition in factory Weatherby Mark V rifles.

In 1975, Botswana… one of my white hunters at Safari South was using a custom made .460 Weatherby Magnum built on a BRNO ZKK602 action. He was using hand loaded ammunition (500Gr Hornady soft points traveling at a velocity of 2300 FPS). I fired three shots from the rifle off-hand and found it to be perfectly comfortable to shoot. The rifle weighed 10 pounds empty and had a 26” barrel.

My personal take is that if a hunter uses hand loaded ammunition with the powder charge slightly reduced, and a rifle with proportionate weight… the .460 Weatherby Magnum will hardly have anymore unpleasant recoil than a .458 Lott or a .450 Rigby Magnum.

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No more unpleasant than a 458 Lott? That’s damning with faint praise, I think?

JPbowhunter said:

Excellent sir,

Fantastic choice of action too.

You’re making me feel like a wimp for not going any larger than a 9.3x62.

If I can ever justify the need I’d like to.

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Don’t worry about being a “whimp “
I am 6’6” and about 400lbs my 2 favorite cartridges and the ones that get the most use are 6mm rem and 6.5g.
I like bigger rounds but a bad shoulder makes them come out very limited.
And guess what 3 of my 4 biggest deer were taken with the 6 and the top 5 biggest hogs shot would be with that 6mm to

JPbowhunter said:

Excellent sir,

Fantastic choice of action too.

You’re making me feel like a wimp for not going any larger than a 9.3x62.

If I can ever justify the need I’d like to.

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I have a 9.3X62 that I love, pretty much same recoil to me as my 375 H&H, both weigh similar right in the 9.5 to 10 pound range.
A good friend of mine has taken Buff, Hippo, Lion, Leopard and says he will not hesitate to use it on Elephant with quality solids. You are good my friend...

Hunter-Habib said:

Young man, you have absolutely nothing to feel like a wimp for.

A sportsman must never be judged by his (in)ability to counteract rifle recoil. Use whichever caliber you feel comfortable with. My own son will flinch if he fires anything larger than 7mm Remington Magnum.

The greatest hunter in British Malaya (Colonel Arthur Locke) bagged 19 Indo-Chinese tigers (17 cattle lifters & two man eaters) with a 9.5x57mm Mannlicher Schoenauer exclusively.When I asked him why he didn’t use any larger calibers, his answer was “Recoil was far too much for my nerves”.

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Not too long ago, Golam Saheb, you’d have been roasted alive by the big-bore aficionados for saying that! I’m not kidding, Sir. You might even have been thrown into the fire for good measure!

Tdsmith517 said:

I wouldn’t want to fire any .450 caliber rifle that weighs less than 10lbs honestly. You are just setting yourself up for a beat down in my opinion.

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I have said many times and will repeat it again. Rifle fit is far more important than weight in reducing felt recoil. I can shoot a Weatherby 378 in a Weatherby rifle but not in other stocks that I have tried even though they are heavier.

My Rem 700 in 375H&H is 2 lb lighter than my CZ550 and kicks less. In this case it is stock material, shitty Rem plastic stock. It absorbs recoil energy and is as accurate as the CZ. Also I put spacers in to lengthen the stock to better suit me.

Bell used a 6.5X54 Mannlicher Schoenauer first before he ran out of ammo and migrated to the 7X57. He was very successful with both as we know. I am a believer in the simple philosophy that penetration to the vitals is what kills. That means in my view moderate speed, controlled expansion and high sectional density - and killing is the ultimate stopper. The whole notion of a projectile weighing a few grams physically stopping a charging elephant of buffalo by momentum alone is of course physically untenable. It is in my view not about cannons at all but about the combination of those key factors and that generally to me suggests smaller calibres with good sectional momentum. I have owned and used a .458 Win Mag but replaced it with a .375H&H with which I have had perfect success and which I have used on a wide range of animals with the appropriate choice of projectile.

Schaapen said:

Bell used a 6.5X54 Mannlicher Schoenauer first before he ran out of ammo and migrated to the 7X57. He was very successful with both as we know. I am a believer in the simple philosophy that penetration to the vitals is what kills. That means in my view moderate speed, controlled expansion and high sectional density - and killing is the ultimate stopper. The whole notion of a projectile weighing a few grams physically stopping a charging elephant of buffalo by momentum alone is of course physically untenable. It is in my view not about cannons at all but about the combination of those key factors and that generally to me suggests smaller calibres with good sectional momentum. I have owned and used a .458 Win Mag but replaced it with a .375H&H with which I have had perfect success and which I have used on a wide range of animals with the appropriate choice of projectile.

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I very much agree with you, shoot as large a rifle as one can master.

Personally, I can thread a needle with a .375 but for elephant I prefer a .458, or .416 in a pinch. I can't say much about needle threading together with a .458. Recoil is NOT condusive to accuracy.
Shooting a elephant at well under 50 yards, often with rifle resting on sticks, does not require a high level of markmanship ability.

Correct me if I am wrong but didn't Bell shoot those small caliber rifle through elephant ear hole to reach the brain? Those were the days when men like Bell were introducing elephant to man with the sound of rifles. I remember from reading Bell that he perfered the lower level of sound from a small caliber rifle so that the herd of elephants would not be spooked and run away. Of maybe it reduced the chance that Bell and others would get stomped flat by elephants?

Mark A Ouellette said:

I very much agree with you, shoot as large a rifle as one can master. Personally, I can thread a needle with a .375 but for elephant I prefer a .458, or .416 in a pinch.

Correct me if I am wrong but didn't Bell shoot those small caliber rifle through elephant ear hole to reach the brain? Those were the days when people like Bell were introducing elephant to man with rifles. I remember from reading Bell that he perfered the lower level of sound from a small caliber rifle so that the herd of elephants would not be spooked and run away. Of maybe it reduced the chance that Bell and others would get stomped flat by elephants?

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He started with .303 British Lee Enfield.

Then, he went to 7x57mm Mauser John Rigby & Co. Model 1 (which accounted for 800 of his 1011 elephants).


He shot exactly 12 elephants with 6.5x54mm Mannlicher Schoenauer (all in one day), but discovered that the bullets bend when hitting heavy bone, which caused him to go back to 7x57mm Mauser.

In 1911, he stepped up to a .318 Westley Richards take down rifle built on a Springfield Model 1903A3 action. Because he found the 7x57mm Mauser to lack penetration when attempting a brain shot through the back of an elephant’s head.

As per his final article on American Rifleman 1954, if he had to go back to Africa again for professional ivory hunting… he would use a Winchester Model 70 chambered in .308 Winchester loaded with monolithic solid cartridges.

It’s very ironic that the world’s most famous hunter to be associated with the name Rigby (barring Jim Corbett) … actually preferred a Winchester Model 70 to a Rigby Mauser in his final years.

He had a very surprising amount of foresight for a man who died in 1954. He predicted that the monolithic solid bullet would one day replace the FMJ solid bullet for elephant hunting (even though the only monolithic bullet in production during his lifetime, was the 198Gr pointed bronze one being used in the French 8mm Lebel “Balle D” service cartridge). Ironically the caliber which was used for culling all the cow & calf elephants during the Rhodesian/Zimbabwean elephant culls of the 1970s & 1980s… happened to be the .308 Winchester.

Hunter-Habib said:

He started with .303 British Lee Enfield.

Then, he went to 7x57mm Mauser John Rigby & Co. Model 1 (which accounted for 800 of his 1011 elephants).


He shot exactly 12 elephants with 6.5x54mm Mannlicher Schoenauer (all in one day), but discovered that the bullets bend when hitting heavy bone, which caused him to go back to 7x57mm Mauser.

In 1911, he stepped up to a .318 Westley Richards take down rifle built on a Springfield Model 1903A3 action. Because he found the 7x57mm Mauser to lack penetration when attempting a brain shot through the back of an elephant’s head.

As per his final article on American Rifleman 1954, if he had to go back to Africa again for professional ivory hunting… he would use a Winchester Model 70 chambered in .308 Winchester loaded with monolithic solid cartridges.

It’s very ironic that the world’s most famous hunter to be associated with the name Rigby (barring Jim Corbett) … actually preferred a Winchester Model 70 to a Rigby Mauser in his final years.

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I seem to recall Bell was using a pair of 416 Rigbys on his last Safari . I think he realised the hunting conditions in 1922 were very different to those in the early 1900s.

PCC600 said:

I seem to recall Bell was using a pair of 416 Rigbys on his last Safari . I think he realised the hunting conditions in 1922 were very different to those in the early 1900s.

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He took them in the event he ever needed to stop a charge, but he never mentions actually using them on anything.

An interesting note: WDM Bell never actually shot a charging elephant in his life.

Hunter-Habib said:

He took them in the event he ever needed to stop a charge, but he never mentions actually using them on anything.

An interesting note: WDM Bell never actually shot a charging elephant in his life.

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HH, I think that alot of people have not actually read Bell’s writings in detail. I think alot of the information quoted is not sourced materials, just common knowledge things that have gone through the proverbial game of “telephone” and some facts have inadvertently been changed. I think alot of people forget that when and how Bell hunted elephants was a very different time, place and set of conditions than it is 120 years later. Bell based alot of his decisions for equipment on what was available and reliable at the time. He found that alot of the factory available ammunition was unreliable after a period in the bush. Also I think people forget that his Ivory hunting was done on foot and everything was carried via porter or on ones person. Bell could carry much more ammunition and a far lighter rifle.

Tdsmith517 said:

HH, I think that alot of people have not actually read Bell’s writings in detail. I think alot of the information quoted is not sourced materials, just common knowledge things that have gone through the proverbial game of “telephone” and some facts have inadvertently been changed. I think alot of people forget that when and how Bell hunted elephants was a very different time, place and set of conditions than it is 120 years later. Bell based alot of his decisions for equipment on what was available and reliable at the time. He found that alot of the factory available ammunition was unreliable after a period in the bush. Also I think people forget that his Ivory hunting was done on foot and everything was carried via porter or on ones person. Bell could carry much more ammunition and a far lighter rifle.

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Tdsmith517,
Very true. He preferred the 7x57mm Mauser because DWM 173Gr ammunition would NEVER misfire. Unlike British Kynoch ammunition which misfired often in tropical climates and had very poor shelf life. In 1911, he stepped up to .318 Westley Richards once he got a supply of reliable ammunition for it.

To put matters into perspective about the reliability of German DWM ammunition, check this out.

I shot this Cape buffalo in Mozambique in 1995 with my 7x57mm Mauser, loaded with 1949 made German DWM round nosed steel jacketed 173Gr FMJ solid cartridges. Single broadside shot. I managed to get one lung and the heart, but he still went 400 yards before he succumbed to his gunshot wound.

That ammunition was 46 years old, but it worked flawlessly.

I only did this out of compulsion because the camp had two loaner rifles; both of which were undesirable:
1) A push feed Ruger Model 77 chambered in .458 Winchester Magnum which had been Magna-Ported; a most crude & unreliable weapon.
2) A beautiful 1939 made Mauser Type A sporter chambered in .404 Jeffery for which the only ammunition available happened to be unreliable Berdan primed Kynoch ammunition from the 1950s (which was hang firing).