Vetting Outfitters And Shady Practices

LimbNoMo · Oct 3, 2026

What would have happened had the PH been disobeyed and shot the lion anyway?

For $150k+ I might have had my first accidental discharge. Either on the lion or the PH.

Betterinthebush · Oct 3, 2026

LimbNoMo said:
What would have happened had the PH been disobeyed and shot the lion anyway?

For $150k+ I might have had my first accidental discharge. Either on the lion or the PH.

From the time of first contact to the final handshake goodbye, we want to trust that the man we hired is a professional and knows best.

We trust these people with (in the case of DG) our lives. That trust is both ours and the PH’s to shatter.

Even in your scenario, I couldn’t buck the PH.

kpoynter · Oct 3, 2026

Mtn_Infantry said:
At the risk of putting words in the hunters mouth I don't believe and I think he’d also say there wasn’t or wasnt any intention for bait and switch on Morgan or RHS part. From where I sit it sounds/looks like there was a misunderstanding of what constitutes a legal lion and a Pride Male.

I sincerely believe Morgan wants what’s best for the animals within the concessions he hunts and his standard is higher than others (including other members of RHS) and because of that if he can’t say with 100% certainty it’s not a Pride Male he believes in passing. Unfortunately I believe this means the goal post is likely fluid and moving.

Not sure if that makes sense

Morgan 100% meant to and believes he did the right thing. The boy is a true conservationist at heart. He takes his job and role very seriously. Overzealous may not be the right adjective in relation to the standard or application applied here, but something like that (in my opinion)

Mtn_Infantry · Oct 3, 2026

My biggest takeaway from all this example and I think it can be applied to more than hunting is as a client or a professional if I feel there’s a misalignment in our goals. I need to be the bigger party, raise my hand and say I think I’m the wrong person for this job or wrong client for you. If I’m the professional I need to say, i can’t compromise my ideals and ethics to achieve success for the client and provide a level of service that will make them happy. My 110% effort doesn’t look like their vision of 110% effort.

LimbNoMo · Oct 3, 2026

Betterinthebush said:
From the time of first contact to the final handshake goodbye, we want to trust that the man we hired is a professional and knows best.

We trust these people with (in the case of DG) our lives. That trust is both ours and the PH’s to shatter.

Even in your scenario, I couldn’t buck the PH.

Seems to me that the PH had already shattered it.

skydiver386 · Oct 3, 2026

Was there a Government Game Scout along that might have influenced things one way or the other?

Betterinthebush · Oct 3, 2026

LimbNoMo said:
Seems to me that the PH had already shattered it.

In this case? No doubt. There seems to (with my understanding and reading of both the OP and the hunters that have been good enough to post) be serious misalignment of priorities, expectations and, ultimately, performance.

But, I stand by my post. Given everything I’ve read here, in the specific hunt history detailed, I would not have taken the shot. It would have hurt, but I couldn’t have done it.

ETA: this thread has been very informative and I’ve learned a lot about being better about the interview and vetting process.

375Fox · Oct 3, 2026

skydiver386 said:
Was there a Government Game Scout along that might have influenced things one way or the other?

Most certainly, but that’s not what they do.

skydiver386 · Oct 3, 2026

375Fox said:
Most certainly, but that’s not what they do.

Understood, it's mostly anti poaching.

LimbNoMo · Oct 3, 2026

Betterinthebush said:
In this case? No doubt. There seems to (with my understanding and reading of both the OP and the hunters that have been good enough to post) be serious misalignment of priorities, expectations and, ultimately, performance.

But, I stand by my post. Given everything I’ve read here, in the specific hunt history detailed, I would not have taken the shot. It would have hurt, but I couldn’t have done it.

ETA: this thread has been very informative and I’ve learned a lot about being better about the interview and vetting process.

I understand that you wouldn’t have done it, but the question is what would happen if the hunter disobeyed the PH’s call and shot anyway?

375Fox · Oct 3, 2026

kpoynter said:
Morgan 100% meant to and believes he did the right thing. The boy is a true conservationist at heart. He takes his job and role very seriously. Overzealous may not be the right adjective in relation to the standard or application applied here, but something like that (in my opinion)

My question would be if there was a lion on the area that actually would have met his criteria when the time came? Being a conservationist first is very noble, but a PH has an expectation to perform for his clients as well. If they had not taken a lion in several years from area, I can only guess he is applying impossible standards of doesn’t truly want to harvest a lion. Taking a clients money at lion day rates for an impossible hunt is not an honest practice.

375Fox · Oct 3, 2026

skydiver386 said:
Understood, it's mostly anti poaching.

When they are along on the hunt. They will record your activities, but they are not knowledgeable or have the ambition to discuss trophy size, age, or subjective qualifications that make something like a cat legal. Male or female, old or young are their abilities. They aren’t typically involved in the hunt besides being present.

Betterinthebush · Oct 3, 2026

LimbNoMo said:
I understand that you wouldn’t have done it, but the question is what would happen if the hunter disobeyed the PH’s call and shot anyway?

What would happen if he was right? I would not want any trophy memory to be the cause of putting a man on unemployment status if I shot and was wrong. It’s his license and both our risk. That’s the game.

Thread drift… sorry.

TEX84 · Oct 3, 2026

Would the fact that the hunt was being recorded for a TV show have influenced the PH? Lot more scrutiny and room for second guessing when the hunt is going to be broadcast across the globe.

dchum · Oct 3, 2026

tinktink12 said:
This sucks … This looks like a bait and switch by Morgan. It looks so fishy to me and I am a newbie hunter. The only fair solution is for Morgan to refund the young man his money. That does not count for the wasted time, and suffering due to this situation. He at the least deserves a heart felt apology, instead of denials and excuses.

Certainly not the case

Morgan refund the money? He’s a contract PH and gets paid a day rate and tips.

DieJager · Oct 3, 2026

LimbNoMo said:
I understand that you wouldn’t have done it, but the question is what would happen if the hunter disobeyed the PH’s call and shot anyway?

Who knows, it would depend on how unlikable the client would become after the shot in the mind of the PH I think. Consequence could be from nothing to a criminal wildlife offence.
Would you roll the dice?

Also it was being filmed...

kpoynter · Oct 3, 2026

375Fox said:
My question would be if there was a lion on the area that actually would have met his criteria when the time came? Being a conservationist first is very noble, but a PH has an expectation to perform for his clients as well. If they had not taken a lion in several years from area, I can only guess he is applying impossible standards of doesn’t truly want to harvest a lion. Taking a clients money at lion day rates for an impossible hunt is not an honest practice.

Well…
That is how the hunter felt. He felt like the task and the bar had clearly become impossible
If not this Lion…,clearly a legal Lion…clearly what I came to hunt… then I’m set up for complete failure (I can put words in his mouth lol because I know exactly how he felt and I was there)
And…it probably was at that point.
It was very uncomfortable for everyone unfortunately. There’s so much on the line with something like this (for everyone)

Betterinthebush · Oct 3, 2026

dchum said:
Certainly not the case

Morgan refund the money? He’s a contract PH and gets paid a day rate and tips.

Oh..my..God… You do realize that you just introduced the “t” word into this now, don’t you?

LimbNoMo · Oct 3, 2026

DieJager said:
Who knows, it would depend on how unlikable the client would become after the shot in the mind of the PH I think. Consequence could be from nothing to a criminal wildlife offence.
Would you roll the dice?

Also it was being filmed...

I’ve read the regulations on hunting in Tanzania on the TAWA website. I don’t see how it could be a criminal offense. The only regulation I see is that the lion be over 6 years old. Even then the law allows you to pay a fee and keep your trophy if it is as young as 4 years old.

There is no mention in the law of not shooting a pride lion either.

So, yes. I probably would roll the dice.

The biggest thing I could see at that point is the PH/outfitter obstructing you getting your trophy.

I’ll edit my position to say it would depend on whether I have already paid the trophy fee. The trophy fee is paid, it’s my ticket to punch. If I haven’t paid it yet, I have to defer to the PH.

Mtn_Infantry · Oct 3, 2026

DieJager said:
Who knows, it would depend on how unlikable the client would become after the shot in the mind of the PH I think. Consequence could be from nothing to a criminal wildlife offence.
Would you roll the dice?

Also it was being filmed...

Someone else can correct me if I’m wrong but I don’t believe there is a written law about not shooting a pride male. I believe the law only states the minimum age.

In this example all parties unanimously agreed it more than met the legal standard for age and that is documented on video. Neither side is arguing that, it’s honestly not a topic of debate and has zero bearing on what transpired and vetting an outfitter.

Because of that I’m not sure a wildlife offense could be applied. There might be other laws though, and it would’ve definitely impacted the rest of the hunt.

I give kudos to the hunter for not doing that.

Vetting Outfitters And Shady Practices

LimbNoMo

Betterinthebush

kpoynter

Mtn_Infantry

LimbNoMo

skydiver386

Betterinthebush

375Fox

skydiver386

LimbNoMo

375Fox

375Fox

Betterinthebush

TEX84

dchum

DieJager

kpoynter

Betterinthebush

LimbNoMo

Mtn_Infantry

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