Cast Lead vs Monolithic Solids for Serious Work....................

Gday riflecrank

Riflecrank said:

ftrovato's Barnes Banded Solid .416/400-gr makes me wonder if the Barnes "bronze" differs much from the CEB brass, metallurgically.
I suppose the impact velocity would be of interest too.
The ogived-FN nose of BBS versus the CEB BBW#13 FN nose shape is another worm in the can.

Click to expand...

A lot of People don’t understand the importance of above

The hard part is discussing the pill’s abilities when you see results like @ftrovato some will only look @ the kill , some will look @ what it actually did & you’ll get a few to look a little deeper into it & start seeing patterns in what it actually done & try & work out why it did what it did which then you come back around to your post above as these are extremely important things to understand of ultimately getting the best bullet possible ( a lot of good bullets today but very few great )

These cast bullets im looking forward to @David jr results & how it all stacks up & compares to the points you highlighted above
Cheers

David jr said:

Hello All
A lot of you do not agree with a barns tsx ok I will switch to a solid for the 375 H&H and the 416 Taylor.
I have the 458 covered .

I am borrowing a safari savage model 116 SS 22 inch barrel in 458 win mag,
I have completely reworked this rifle it started at just seven pounds now with scope sling lead in butt stock 1.5 inch limb saver recoil pad free floated barrel added four port muzzle break with sound forward outer sleeve on muzzle break and re worked feed ramp it now is 10 pounds 10 oz .
and fells like a 243 with the 520 gr bullet at 1538 fps .

Now to date my friend has used the hunters supply .459 520 flat point 15 BHN at just a slow 1538 fps . IMR 3031 powder.
This load has taken 4 wild bulls to date with complete pass through from chest to tail and quartying and perfect side shots ,all but two bulls were one shot kills the one took two shots.
Bull was quirting head on first shot paralyzed the bull second dropped instantly .
The other bull required three shots was a experiment with a 450 bush master Hunters supply 340
flat point .452 bullet 15 BHN at 2300 fps .The 450 bush master broke one front shoulder but did not slow down the bull second shot was bad shot in gut ,bull went into very heavy brush and my friend went in after him with the 458 520 bullet found the bull hunting him at 15 feet one shot with the 458 bullet had complete pass through side shot .

So in real life testing yes the 458 win mag 520 lead FP at 1530 is working very well on wild bulls in the US no they are not African buff or elephant but every one is over 2000 pounds and will kill you. and no bullet from the 458 has been recovered conclusion may be I do not need 2000+ fps 26.8 BHN with cast bullets in 458 calibers ?

I have made up some 7% tin 6% antimony lead BHN 26.8 and will test in a 55 gallon drum fulled with water to see how the 26.8 BHN is holding up if it fall's apart then we know it is to hard and I will adjust lead mix . the 15 BHN 458 520 gr will make a perfect mushroom at 1530 fps in 55 gallon water drum .

I have started working up a load for the 375 346.8 gr lead bullet had to go to .379 DIAMETER with the 26.8 BHN lead mix in my Three different 375 rifles to achieve good grouping have used AA4350 VARGET bullet did not like these two powders . Today I switched to H 4831 which is showing real promos at 2250 fps at 2450 fps grouping was terrible three inches for five rounds 50 yards .

When I do the elephant head test media it will be one shot and change out media no way to confuse
the test results . No it is not a real animal but as close as I can come up with in the US
I will add water buckets for three feet behind elephant skull test media then three feet of sand buckets trying to catch bullets .

The test media is not cheep I have shopped around and the cheapest cost per shot is in the 135 dollar range per shot not counting ammo. and there will be 3 solids as test standards ,
one lead 416
three lead 375
five 458 win mag lead
five 458 lott lead
so this testing will cost around 2295.00 Not counting ammo .

Now what solid will you prefer for the 375 300 gr or 350 gr?
416 will be 400 gr.
Barnes or cutting edge brand ?

I thank all you for your inputs on this adventure .

Some do not agree with my choice of bullet metal that is ok this is what this forum is about
hunting African animals with a lot of different bullets and calibers and I thank all of you for your
input .

I have no intention on using the 375 for elephant lion hippo and buff may be for crock and plains game , I have not made up my mined If I will take two rifles on this safari .

The 416 Taylor will only be used on plains game by my son in law on the up coming safari .

All of you have a great day

David Jr

Click to expand...

@David jr , I really appreciate your knowledge about the metalurgy of lead alloys, and bullet performance. Thanks for informing us plebes.

My grandfather was a blacksmith, forge welding broken plows, tractor axles, etc. I loved to watch him work.

Crafting a properly cast and hardened lead alloy as a solid is very interesting.
I will be following your test results as you develop data.
BTW, 416 Taylor is a favorite of mine, but the 458 Win Mag (Whitworth) can probably get the job done.

I

As per my post before, some of the 458 wind bag ammo that I use in mine( must reload some more) from left to right 350 gn hollow point (I think Sierra, I bought 300 loose for 0.02cents each) ,hornady 325 ftx, woodleigh 405gn PP , Bullet factory 405gn soft nose ( no longer made), 560 gn hard cast , 600gn hard cast, 625(?) gn hard cast. I couldn’t find the 700gn hard cast or the 550 gn copper jacketed projectiles, my reloading area is a mess from when we moved
As to the wind bag tittle, I don’t think it is the be all and end all cartridge as some seem to claim. I prefer my 404 Jeff



Gumpy

Gday davidjr

David jr said:

Now what solid will you prefer for the 375 300 gr or 350 gr?
416 will be 400 gr.
Barnes or cutting edge brand ?

Click to expand...

My thoughts For the 375 is a 300 gr as that is better suited to the h&h re velocity wise

Don’t like the Barnes banded especially the RN versions so the ceb would get my vote on what you put up
Cheers

Randy Garrett figured it out already.


540-gr Hammer Heads of BHN 25 and gas checked, driven at about 1550 fps MV from a .45-70 Gov't.
Vince Lupo had an exit on the side brain shot elephant, and a dead elephant.


Heavier bullet weight at same velocity would be more likely to make the nose expand and decrease penetration.
Harder bullet might overcome that.

Higher velocity will increase the resistance the bullet meets with.

540 grains of BHN 25 at 1550 fps MV is a sweet spot apparently.
600 grains of BHN 30 at 1600 fps MV ... maybe that would work ?
750 grains of BHN 35 at 1400 fps MV ... is that possible ?

Whatever, the loads with cast lead will have to be more like .45-70 than .458 Lott.
Easiest of all to do well with a .458 WIN MAG with SAAMI throat,
loaded to keep velocities down to maintain bullet integrity.

Remember the 2001 Linebaugh seminar penetration tests ?
The Garret 540-grainer at about 1550 fps MV from a .45-70 beat the .458 WIN MAG with 500-grainer at 2260 fps.
They did not mention that the .458 WIN MAG was handicapped by a Round-Nose "Encapsulated Solid."
That probably went sideways and bent the soft lead inside the brass jacket of that awful bullet from Hornady, bless their heart, when they experimented briefly with no steel in the "FMJ Solid."

Hello all,

Had to get wet today testing .
Water testing one of the toughest things in the world for bullets .

Today was the first real testing with the 375 H&H and the 350 gr bullet mold.

The 6% antimony 7% tin 87% lead did just what I figured would happen in water
241.4 gr recovered .
base of bullet intact 103.5 gr
The velocity 6 7 87 lead mix , 347.7 gr 2335 FPS 4201 FT LBS

The 6% antimony 2% tin 92% lead did what it has always done in water but I was surprised how much was vaporized or shattered into dust in the water.
178.5 gr recovered
base of bullet intact 91.4 gr
The velocity 6 2 92 lead mix , 343.6 gr 2307 FPS 4098 FT LBS

Both had gas checks attached that could not be found in the water tank, may have been blown out with the water ejected.

Will try with the 6 7 87 lead mix on the elephant head test next.

Not looking for much but we might get a surprise in elephant head testing .

Have a great day
DavidJr

Gday davidjr
Here’s a bit that just showed up on what we were talking about re bullets not just killing

it’s one’s like this link below that show what has happened numerous times throughout many places that many people on the whole are pretty shielded from but once you talk to the ones who are on the ground a lot , one understands a little better of why a dead critter is not the be all & end all as it is often the less than ideal results that show us how close that particular instance was close to failure or a minimum a pattern formed that we can learn from & one we shouldn’t ignore ( imo ) in pursuit of excellence & consistent performance even if the critter died as it’s only a matter of time until one sees those results /patterns give us a problem that goes totally pear shape & sadly then you’ll get that individual to understand those patterns & see how it was all there to begin with but one that is often overlooked or worse dismissed even on total failures

I speak from experience of not listening in my early years

( go too around the 1hr 25 to 30 minute mark )

It’s why a few of us we’re against that 375 Barnes & one I applaud your decision to change out for a better choice & personally thankyou for that

Cheers

Fordy said:

Gday davidjr
Here’s a bit that just showed up on what we were talking about re bullets not just killing

it’s one’s like this link below that show what has happened numerous times throughout many places that many people on the whole are pretty shielded from but once you talk to the ones who are on the ground a lot , one understands a little better of why a dead critter is not the be all & end all as it is often the less than ideal results that show us how close that particular instance was close to failure or a minimum a pattern formed that we can learn from & one we shouldn’t ignore ( imo ) in pursuit of excellence & consistent performance even if the critter died as it’s only a matter of time until one sees those results /patterns give us a problem that goes totally pear shape & sadly then you’ll get that individual to understand those patterns & see how it was all there to begin with but one that is often overlooked or worse dismissed even on total failures

I speak from experience of not listening in my early years

( go too around the 1hr 25 to 30 minute mark )

It’s why a few of us we’re against that 375 Barnes & one I applaud your decision to change out for a better choice & personally thankyou for that

Cheers

Click to expand...

Hello Fordy
I thank you on the video attachment .
You have shot a lot of elephants and the 500 nitro a very good caliber for DG .

I do not like doubles.
I am a bolt gun shooter.
Yes the double gives a very quick second shot.
Then you are stuck with reloading and things can go very bad on a reload shown many times in current videos dropping shells missing the chambers having to look down to reload losing sight of the game and surroundings around you not good things to worry about at that time .

Did you mean to pull both barrels with two fingers or did the double fire two barrels with only one trigger pulled ?
Another reason I do not trust doubles for DG.

I have tried the 458 win mag and with CEB 13 450 GR SOLID it will do the job extremely well , But as you know I am walking another path and have found in early testing the 458 just will not do what is needed with a BIG HEAVY lead bullet .
I have changed to the 458 lott.
I an leaning to a 705 gr lead bullet an paper it will out preform the 500 nitro's both 3 and 3.25 inch
YES I SAID ON PAPER .
I am waiting on my two 458 lotts to be completed some time in August this year then the testing will began .

I have a lot of CEB 13 450 SOLIDS which will be my go to testing bullet to equal or beat . The bullet I am leaning toward is a 705 gr lead bullet at 30 BHN that will not shatter on impact and has enough mass to best the 500 nitros as far as Taylor knock out computes .

The 458 lott with a 705 gr bullet at 2150 fps will give 99.4 TKO and 7234.9 foot pounds

The 500 nitros factory loads with a 570gr at 2150 fps will give a TKO of 89.3 and 5849.49 foot pounds

Yes the .510 diameter does play into the pitcher and helps a little over the .458 , 459 diameters
the win 70 likes .458 bullets the CZ 550 I will need to fined what it needs may be all the way up to .461 diameter . this is the beauty with lead bullets you can go up or down in diameter for the barrel at hand .

I may fined I do not need the 2150 fps may be 2000 fps will do the job only testing can tell .
the win model 70 CRF 458 win mag could only do 1750 fps maxed out with the 705 gr lead bullet not fast enough.

The 375 and 416 Taylor I will be comparing against the CEB 13 458 SOLID

I am looking for the lead bullets in the 375 and 416 to make it through the front brain test media and see how far they go through 20% gel block which will be 20x10x10 if they make it through the gel block they will work well on a elephant frontal head shots .

Michael 458 I will be stacking the deck with the 705 gr bullet L.O.L.
I am not trying to be offensive.
Testing will tell and I will show all testing for all to see good or bad .

The 458 lott 705 gr bullet meplat is the same diameter as the CEB 13 458 450 gr solid

Gday David jr
I will have to default on a full reply @ the present as still in Mozambique hunting & just got back for a break that has a little bit of service

So quickly & apologies in advance for this ,
First off some misunderstandings as I have nothing to do with the video I posted & one I’m sorry for crossed wires on that but some points I’d like to address but sadly another day as my time is limited

Moving on to your stuff

Your gel is useless

Don’t assume a frontal will exit let alone get to the brain ( this is bullet capabilities , makeup & meplat shape plus what angle head is on @ moment of impact & that’s if one places it correctly as when one is off that correct placement mark as I did last week you’ll see why only the best bullets will work as the known factors will help one not hinder more )

That all said I get your wanting to take a elephant with a cast lead bullet which is fine imo but the real issue will arise if this comes out as it’s FULLY capable or portrayed that way (yes I have my doubts & your brn hardness is one part that has shown flaws over history & more on that later )

To qualify for that FULLY capable, one will have to show where your chosen bullet can withstand
Various resistances, angles @ varying velocity impacts & one that you’ll have to up your anti on your media to test the extremes to qualify for a FULLY capable bullet imo to make sure you cover the bases that will present on a critter.
Now if you just want to kill a elephant that’s one that will most likely occur when things are right but it’s one that has proven over time that it’s when it goes a little off what we thought was going to occur or be acceptable , one will only then realise we should’ve done a bit more before heading into a situation that can & has proven to be deadly for not only us

I get a lot of stuff & still learning on more so I await your results that can hopefully show us we needed to clear our heads on what your doing yet on the other hand if the results are showing the known facts on where a bullet will fail I hope that we can relay why it is your personal ambition to take a elephant with a cast bullet & one that if I believe what your out come will be should be shown as it is of your own personal ambitions & not one of a FULLY capable bullet

The last part scares me & im seeing it sneak in on expanding or trauma bullets for elephant even when people have taken elephant previously , the facts show why ONLY a GOOD solid should be used

hopefully the above comes across ok & catch you most likely when I get home as off looking for a buff a mate has shot that although he is using a good bullet he has seen enough on this trip as others have of why I don’t go much on good bullets & have gravitated towards the great bullets as they cover the most bases of what can occur in the field & does if one is open & honest ( may not to them but someone it will )
Another thread on that will most likely come

Catch you lot on the flip side

Cheers

Fordy said:

Gday David jr
I will have to default on a full reply @ the present as still in Mozambique hunting & just got back for a break that has a little bit of service

So quickly & apologies in advance for this ,
First off some misunderstandings as I have nothing to do with the video I posted & one I’m sorry for crossed wires on that but some points I’d like to address but sadly another day as my time is limited

Moving on to your stuff

Your gel is useless

Don’t assume a frontal will exit let alone get to the brain ( this is bullet capabilities , makeup & meplat shape plus what angle head is on @ moment of impact & that’s if one places it correctly as when one is off that correct placement mark as I did last week you’ll see why only the best bullets will work as the known factors will help one not hinder more )

That all said I get your wanting to take a elephant with a cast lead bullet which is fine imo but the real issue will arise if this comes out as it’s FULLY capable or portrayed that way (yes I have my doubts & your brn hardness is one part that has shown flaws over history & more on that later )

To qualify for that FULLY capable, one will have to show where your chosen bullet can withstand
Various resistances, angles @ varying velocity impacts & one that you’ll have to up your anti on your media to test the extremes to qualify for a FULLY capable bullet imo to make sure you cover the bases that will present on a critter.
Now if you just want to kill a elephant that’s one that will most likely occur when things are right but it’s one that has proven over time that it’s when it goes a little off what we thought was going to occur or be acceptable , one will only then realise we should’ve done a bit more before heading into a situation that can & has proven to be deadly for not only us

I get a lot of stuff & still learning on more so I await your results that can hopefully show us we needed to clear our heads on what your doing yet on the other hand if the results are showing the known facts on where a bullet will fail I hope that we can relay why it is your personal ambition to take a elephant with a cast bullet & one that if I believe what your out come will be should be shown as it is of your own personal ambitions & not one of a FULLY capable bullet

The last part scares me & im seeing it sneak in on expanding or trauma bullets for elephant even when people have taken elephant previously , the facts show why ONLY a GOOD solid should be used

hopefully the above comes across ok & catch you most likely when I get home as off looking for a buff a mate has shot that although he is using a good bullet he has seen enough on this trip as others have of why I don’t go much on good bullets & have gravitated towards the great bullets as they cover the most bases of what can occur in the field & does if one is open & honest ( may not to them but someone it will )
Another thread on that will most likely come

Catch you lot on the flip side

Cheers

Click to expand...

Hello Fordy
Sorry I thought you were directing me to where you were in the video attachment.
No big deal It still shows all the reasons why I do not trust doubles for DG .

Pleas when you have time read my post on the elephant head media which will supposedly
duplicate a honey come bone in a elephant head .
I have given what it will be made of on this posting .
The 20% gel 20x 10x10 will be placed behind this wall of bone just as in a real elephant brain to duplicate the brain no elephant has a 20 inch deep brain , then 3 buckets of water then 3 buckets of wet sand .
May be a 50 BMG , 20 MM or 30 MM will make it through all of this materials with AP round.
The 500,600 or 577 nitro's will not go through all of this stuff which can be shot in modern DG hunting rifles to day .

Yes I get it , you are for very best solids for elephant

The biggest Ivory hunter in history used a 7x57 solid spire point bullets for some time and would run along with the heard and hart shoot the elephants some times. but that was a long time ago . Not legal today.

I have stated on here several times it is no challenge to take any animal with modern bullets
1200 yards is very easy with modern equipment today.Any one can learn and use the equipment in a couple of hours today .

Hell I took a 308 air gun 150 gr lead bullet at 750 fps to 1107 yards just for fun and kept 3 rounds on a 24 inch circle shouting through 4 winds that day .
This is equal to shooting at 4 miles ask some snipers they can tell you this was quite of an achievement and no one has attempted this shot to best it to this day.

I am looking to do as the old timers had to do shoot very big heavy lead bullets for the caliber at hand just with a better modern metal which could not be produced in the 1800’s or earlier .

Yes a 705 gr lead bullet 30 BHN .459 bullet at 2150 fps will give a Taylor nock out of 99.2 and over 7200 ft lbs
this is very easy load to do in the 458 lott.

I have stated I may not need 2150 fps maybe 2000 fps will do the job and not be as much stress on the LEAD bullet for deeper penetration only testing will tell and I will show all testing for all to see good or bad

I am sorry if I have offended you with my quest , I am not trying to .

David Jr

Fordy instructions: ... go to around the 1hr 25 to 30 minute mark ...







DR-shooter Mike joked about doing that double-fire on purpose,
even though (obviously) the bullet from the left barrel sailed high, missed the elephant.
One bullet in the brain was sufficient.
It was a mercy killing of a cow with a bum leg.

Gday David jr
I’m not offended at all so cool on that , my point I’m most likely not getting across is it’s not when it goes correct like your points of a 7x39 previously or 7x57 as those kill 100% of the time right??? or actually do they ???

Simply yes they do when they are placed correctly & within the parameters of what the projectile can do & you can quote what you like on placement or abilities of the individual yet the most important part is the unknowns & what the projectile itself can do under these situations ahead that will occur

THAT IS A VERY IMPORTANT POINT !!!

As given enough situations & specimens as no 2 play out the same while a lot can be similar it’s the ones that don’t align with the normal that will give the higher % of things likely to go bad & bad with a elephant is not good let alone other species

The unknowns can somewhat be tested for yes but the most important part is not when things are correct it’s when things are a NOT !! & here is the part that we as individuals can play a role in showing where things go wrong or less than ideal as if we do this in a way of non emotional factual evidence one can lesson the risk of a pear shape event occurring

Simple facts I hope we can agree on ???

So go to this picture of yours

& look @ the different coloured lines which now on those 3 lines let’s look @ the different resistances @ that particular head angle and one can see multiple differences in relation to
Angle of impact
Length of penertration requirements
Resistance of that penertration

That leaving out variations from critter to critter like bone density & environment one is in

Here’s a series of screenshot pictures taken from about 20 yards of a video of mine approximately around 1/3 of a second between ea one , now put those together on that picture of yours & look how those align with what is needed to kill


Now that’s easy for any individual to say oh wait till all is aligned correctly then place the shot accordingly

WELL HERES THE REALITY
THE CRITTER DOSENT ALWAYS GET THE SCRIPT !!!

As I just found out on elephant & as good as I’ve been able to show my shooting ability previously on many critters it’s one that it only mattered RIGHT THERE @ THAT MOMENT THAT MATTERED!!!

Mine this month was a realitive easy angle & resistance @40 ish yards yet @ 20 things were way different and @7&1/2 yards I’d had enough of waiting for the script to align & fired into its head which wasn’t on the mark as it went low & my mate & PH then fired ( we were extremely close to the boarder of Zimbabwe & needed him down quickly as no 100’s of yards before dying was acceptable) yet those next 2 shots while being correct on the needed placement for a killing shot the limiting factor then played out of projectile choice ( 2 different brands ) the one brand was of a design that has multiple failure points while the other had way less but still possessed some traits that had given poor performance previously based on evidence gathered over many 1000’s of large critters

Well now the SCRIPT was thrown out & REALITY of needing the critter down quickly ( which occurred from shots after the first 3 I’ve relayed above ) which was also shown why one is better off having the better known factors of a projectiles ability to preform under various conditions rather than trying to stay within a script

That’s my point & while I get what you want to do & absolutely no problem with it ( I just went on a trip with a mate that wanted to hunt Africa with his double built in 1903 & while I get it & went along with it I also know as he does why the things like a scope or red dot are just plain better options today & if he was to have another trip I’d dare say that double especially in that format wouldn’t be his option) it’s one that you watch if it all goes to plan the likes of a individual/s or with respect your daughters company will take that information & push it to align with their views or worse marketing it as being a perfect option when reality based on history has shown why the move away from that era of projectile has occurred which has lessened the pear shape things occurring today

Now if your tests can show that your alloy mix & calibre , design can hold up to known factors of projectile failure ?? time will tell on that & honestly I don’t think it will yet still have a open mind but the known factors of projectile failure have not been covered with what I am reading from you sorry but hey I like the concept of pushing boundaries & look forward to the tests and chat about those from evidence based positions not a emotional one

No offence intended above just a honest view of what I’m seeing & trying to stop the rot from the wanker brigade of the critter died so all good from gaining traction like I’m seeing with a few individuals companies pushing these days even though they have been shown or worse seen themselves as that’s just plain wrong in my book but hey i guess I didn’t get that script lol & why I’ll speak up

Cheers

Fordy said:

Gday David jr
I’m not offended at all so cool on that , my point I’m most likely not getting across is it’s not when it goes correct like your points of a 7x39 previously or 7x57 as those kill 100% of the time right??? or actually do they ???

Simply yes they do when they are placed correctly & within the parameters of what the projectile can do & you can quote what you like on placement or abilities of the individual yet the most important part is the unknowns & what the projectile itself can do under these situations ahead that will occur

THAT IS A VERY IMPORTANT POINT !!!

As given enough situations & specimens as no 2 play out the same while a lot can be similar it’s the ones that don’t align with the normal that will give the higher % of things likely to go bad & bad with a elephant is not good let alone other species

The unknowns can somewhat be tested for yes but the most important part is not when things are correct it’s when things are a NOT !! & here is the part that we as individuals can play a role in showing where things go wrong or less than ideal as if we do this in a way of non emotional factual evidence one can lesson the risk of a pear shape event occurring

Simple facts I hope we can agree on ???

So go to this picture of yoursView attachment 779839

& look @ the different coloured lines which now on those 3 lines let’s look @ the different resistances @ that particular head angle and one can see multiple differences in relation to
Angle of impact
Length of penertration requirements
Resistance of that penertration

That leaving out variations from critter to critter like bone density & environment one is in

Here’s a series of screenshot pictures taken from about 20 yards of a video of mine approximately around 1/3 of a second between ea one , now put those together on that picture of yours & look how those align with what is needed to kill

View attachment 779848View attachment 779849View attachment 779850View attachment 779851
Now that’s easy for any individual to say oh wait till all is aligned correctly then place the shot accordingly

WELL HERES THE REALITY
THE CRITTER DOSENT ALWAYS GET THE SCRIPT !!!

As I just found out on elephant & as good as I’ve been able to show my shooting ability previously on many critters it’s one that it only mattered RIGHT THERE @ THAT MOMENT THAT MATTERED!!!

Mine this month was a realitive easy angle & resistance @40 ish yards yet @ 20 things were way different and @7&1/2 yards I’d had enough of waiting for the script to align & fired into its head which wasn’t on the mark as it went low & my mate & PH then fired ( we were extremely close to the boarder of Zimbabwe & needed him down quickly as no 100’s of yards before dying was acceptable) yet those next 2 shots while being correct on the needed placement for a killing shot the limiting factor then played out of projectile choice ( 2 different brands ) the one brand was of a design that has multiple failure points while the other had way less but still possessed some traits that had given poor performance previously based on evidence gathered over many 1000’s of large critters

Well now the SCRIPT was thrown out & REALITY of needing the critter down quickly ( which occurred from shots after the first 3 I’ve relayed above ) which was also shown why one is better off having the better known factors of a projectiles ability to preform under various conditions rather than trying to stay within a script

That’s my point & while I get what you want to do & absolutely no problem with it ( I just went on a trip with a mate that wanted to hunt Africa with his double built in 1903 & while I get it & went along with it I also know as he does why the things like a scope or red dot are just plain better options today & if he was to have another trip I’d dare say that double especially in that format wouldn’t be his option) it’s one that you watch if it all goes to plan the likes of a individual/s or with respect your daughters company will take that information & push it to align with their views or worse marketing it as being a perfect option when reality based on history has shown why the move away from that era of projectile has occurred which has lessened the pear shape things occurring today

Now if your tests can show that your alloy mix & calibre , design can hold up to known factors of projectile failure ?? time will tell on that & honestly I don’t think it will yet still have a open mind but the known factors of projectile failure have not been covered with what I am reading from you sorry but hey I like the concept of pushing boundaries & look forward to the tests and chat about those from evidence based positions not a emotional one

No offence intended above just a honest view of what I’m seeing & trying to stop the rot from the wanker brigade of the critter died so all good from gaining traction like I’m seeing with a few individuals companies pushing these days even though they have been shown or worse seen themselves as that’s just plain wrong in my book but hey i guess I didn’t get that script lol & why I’ll speak up

Cheers

Click to expand...

Hello Fordy
All I can say about your line drawings lines they do not line up with my elephant head test media to little resentence .
my elephant head will be duplicating a line or path above the yellow ,orange and blue meeting lines through the honey comb bone above the eyes .
Now I know my hight it is 5 foot 11 inches and a elephant head will be around 10 to 15 feet high so my line of bullet path will probably be very different from your bullet path .

Riflecrank ? shame on you for taking a very bad shot on a elephant that could go over the line and not be retrieved .
You Sir should have backed out and found another elephant not helping elephant hunting future .

I have turned down some shot's on world recored elk and mule deer because the line was in question that is hunting .
I am not after just an animal to go home with .
The animal deserves a good shot not a hurried up shot that can easily create a crap shoot.

I have just came back from my back specialist doctor and will go under the knife on the 27 August and will need max of 60 days to be 100% back up and running .

I get it some of you have never shot animals with lead bullets and can only talk about bad jacketed bullets not doing there job.

I will get back and I should have the 458 lott's in hand and producing load data for bullets from .442 to 705 gr lead bullets after full recovery .

All I can say is you guys are not showing a full frontal charging shot unless you are very short or laying on your back with your color lines drawings L.O.L.

All keep in touch this has been a eye oping showing how some are 100% against lead bullets.

Jacketed and mono bullets are very new to the firearms game .
Bullets made of Lead has been around for hundreds of years
Chicken or egg all over L.O.L.
ALL KEEP IN TOUCH
GOD willing I will be back
David Jr

Gday @David jr
Hope your surgery goes well .

Im slow @ uptake so may I get you to help me a little

While in recovery to hopefully give a little more context is in the following questions that I’d love answers too

1/ Whats the purpose of a PH carrying a rifle
2/ what’s the purpose of a bolt action or double rifle ??

As These are not needed as an individual will only ever need one shot if they practice & shoot enough right ??

3/ So what are you shooting with again david jr ??

I look forward to answers to those 3 questions

Did I hear chicken or egg mentioned ?? or just PFB ??

Cheers

Fordy said:

Gday @David jr
Hope your surgery goes well .

Im slow @ uptake so may I get you to help me a little

While in recovery to hopefully give a little more context is in the following questions that I’d love answers too

1/ Whats the purpose of a PH carrying a rifle
2/ what’s the purpose of a bolt action or double rifle ??

As These are not needed as an individual will only ever need one shot if they practice & shoot enough right ??

3/ So what are you shooting with again david jr ??

I look forward to answers to those 3 questions

Did I hear chicken or egg mentioned ?? or just PFB ??

Cheers

Click to expand...

Hello Fordy
Thank you for the surgery going well.
it should and get rid of a pain I have been deleang with for over 20 years

I am working on my sun in law 416 Taylor today with two lead bullets both over 400 grains .
I have two loads one around 1950 fps puts the bullets in same hole all day long and over 2000 ft lbs at 300 yards very pleasant to shoot.

sun in law is only going after PG on this trip next year

The other load is full power load at 2300 + FPS OVER 5000 ft lbs I will try both on elephant head testing .

1 question is to keep the hunter out of trouble when things go bad and on my elephant hunt.
I will have 2 PH with me so I will have a lot of back up if things do go bad .

2 question I would say it is personal preference .
For me it will always be a bolt action rifle shooting the biggest lead bullet for that caliber that will shoot straight.
DG.The CZ 550 should hold at least 6 rounds in the rifle 5 or 6 down and 1 in chamber
This is a lot of power in a small package .

I will probably be shooting a 705 gr lead bullet between 2000 fps and 2300 fps in a CZ 550 458 LOTT for DG .

Yes practice , practice some more and a single shot will work ,I just have more confidence knowing I have at least 6 in the rifle that I can shoot from the shoulder and not lose sight of the target at hand.

Yes chicken or egg
comparing jacketed and mono bullets very new in the firearms story, compared to lead bullets which have been around many 100’s of years .


I will post a very lengthy post on the 416 Taylor I am working on may be over the weekend .
I have a lot more rounds to send down range first.

David Jr

Fordy,
Someone has used my handle in vain, with false accusations, so I must reply.

Somehow you have confused someone into thinking I was shooting your elephant. The accusation:

"Riflecrank ? shame on you for taking a very bad shot on a elephant that could go over the line and not be retrieved .
You Sir should have backed out and found another elephant not helping elephant hunting future ."

Maybe someone can be disabused of at least that one delusion?

Yes, the first "jacketed bullets" were paper-patched, soft lead,
and lead bullets have been used for hundreds of years longer than current monometal copper and brass wunderbullets.
But, similarly, smoke signals have been used for thousands of years before current wireless telecommunication.
Ditto sticks and stones.
Should we go back to stone age techniques ?

Fact:
The only way a SAAMI-chambered .458 Lott can beat a SAAMI-chambered .458 WIN MAG
for length of COL, bullet mass, MV, and kinetic energy,
with any bullet of unrestricted length and weight,
is if the .458 Lott is re-chambered with a longer throat.

Riflecrank said:

Fordy,
Someone has used my handle in vain, with false accusations, so I must reply.

Somehow you have confused someone into thinking I was shooting your elephant. The accusation:

"Riflecrank ? shame on you for taking a very bad shot on a elephant that could go over the line and not be retrieved .
You Sir should have backed out and found another elephant not helping elephant hunting future ."

Maybe someone can be disabused of at least that one delusion?

Yes, the first "jacketed bullets" were paper-patched, soft lead,
and lead bullets have been used for hundreds of years longer than current monometal copper and brass wunderbullets.
But, similarly, smoke signals have been used for thousands of years before current wireless telecommunication.
Ditto sticks and stones.
Should we go back to stone age techniques ?

Fact:
The only way a SAAMI-chambered .458 Lott can beat a SAAMI-chambered .458 WIN MAG
for length of COL, bullet mass, MV, and kinetic energy,
with any bullet of unrestricted length and weight,
is if the .458 Lott is re-chambered with a longer throat.

Click to expand...

Fordy, Riflecrank
That is terrible some one hijacked your posts

No I will be shooting all of my game on the 21 day safari in 2027
I have never meet either of you would like to meet both of you and would never ask anyone to shoot a animal for me .

I will have both a win model 70 CF 458 win mag, being re chambered to a 458 lott so I will have the free bore you are talking about in this rifle .

The CZ 550 is marked 458 win mag and 458 lott I do not know if it will have the free bore of the 458 win mag in the barrel ?
The CZ 550 rifle it is a factory 458 lott as I bought it and having it converted to a full DG hunting rifle
every thing that can be done to a CZ 550 and more the reveal will be coming, I will post a lot of photos when I receive it.
It will be a very interesting 458 lott nothing like it that I have seen or heard of.
cut barrel to 23 inch
thread barrel for muzzle break and silencer
full new front and rear safari sights with fiber optic green front sight no sight hood
barrel band for sling
fill the sling swivel hole on the factory CZ 550 on the forend
bolt added inside pistol grip WEAK POINT IN CZ 550
2 new bigger cross bolts in action area on stock factory cross bolts are to small for 458 lott
3 position safety
full action glass bead
free float barrel
added 1 round to box mag with a new trigger guard floor plate
blue print action
Alaska quick release 30 mm scope rings as low as possible for a 1x6 scope
add RAD 2 A recoil reducer in the butt stock with a 1.5 inch limb saver recoil pad
set trigger at 3.5 lbs no creep
and a lot more things being done to this rifle.
I will chamber cast the chamber and throat to see how much free bore is on the CZ 550 barrel
waiting for the call saying the two rifles are ready.

Have a great day.
David Jr