Unless ofcourse you are someone like Jim Corbett! who preferred to hunt man eaters alone and with max of 4 bullets in his pocket....but then he was a man with the 6th sense.
World's most popular community & resource for hunting in Africa since 2007
Buffaloes are tough
- Thread starter Kevin Peacocke
- Start date
grand veneur
AH legend
- Joined
- Sep 1, 2019
- Messages
- 2,999
- Reaction score
- 7,103
- Location
- France/Germany
- Media
- 82
- Member of
- Schützengesellschaft Kreisgruppe LJV/RLP
I never had a hard-and-fast rule for that. It depended heavily on the time period, the cartridge used and the circumstances under which the buffalo was shot. Nowadays, given the cartridges used by the vast majority of buffalo hunters and the premium bullets available, one can only recommend using soft-point bullets for the first shot. The question of whether or not to use a FMJ bullet or Solid for the second shot is a subject of controversial discussions.
IvW
AH ambassador
- Joined
- Dec 20, 2016
- Messages
- 7,199
- Reaction score
- 17,734
- Location
- South Africa
- Media
- 68
- Articles
- 3
- Member of
- BASA, CHASA
- Hunted
- South Africa, Zimbabwe, Mozambique, Botswana, Namibia,Zambia
We refer to what we call the trampoline effect on a frontal shot on cape buffalo which can effect the performance of the bullet. This is more applicable for the 375 H&H using 300gr bullets. The 375 H&H in my opinion is too fast using a 300gr bullet. It performs a lot better with 340, 350 and 380gr premium expanding bullets on buffalo. Heavier bullets at lower velocity.
I dont use "shedding & various designs" bullets I prefer tried and tested premium grade expanding bullets. In my case Rhino to be specific.
Frontal shot placement on buffalo is critical and should only be attempted by experienced hunters at close range. If you are off shot you will have problems no matter the bullet used. The margin for error is just too big.
Well there is a huge difference in performance between a 375 H&H and 500 Jeff on cape buffalo. The bullets I use expand to 2.5 times original diameter and the resultant effects are undesputable.
I do not use solids on cape buffalo in either 375 H&H or 500 Jeff......no need for them and they will limit the shots you can take if using them.
I use brass solids with a meplat when I do use them on elephant and rhino. In the 500 Jeff using a 570gr solid I have had one penetrate from the right shoulder and exit on the left rear leg of a white rhino bull. They also exit on elephant so not a bullet I would want to use on cape buffalo.
You can start to educate but I am not interested in getting into a contest regarding the use of solid bullets on cape buffalo. I know what works for me and that is what I will use.
So what would be considered the "minimum" amount of cartridge for hunting buffalo? I'm not talking about the legal minimum, but the minimum effective amount for a safe buffalo hunt from a hunter's perspective. Thank you.
Ovny
Ovny
IvW
AH ambassador
- Joined
- Dec 20, 2016
- Messages
- 7,199
- Reaction score
- 17,734
- Location
- South Africa
- Media
- 68
- Articles
- 3
- Member of
- BASA, CHASA
- Hunted
- South Africa, Zimbabwe, Mozambique, Botswana, Namibia,Zambia
The biggest legal caliber the hunter is competent with using the right bullets of course......
It is pointless using a 500 Jeff if the biggest caliber a hunter can use with competence is a 375 H&H.
IvW
AH ambassador
- Joined
- Dec 20, 2016
- Messages
- 7,199
- Reaction score
- 17,734
- Location
- South Africa
- Media
- 68
- Articles
- 3
- Member of
- BASA, CHASA
- Hunted
- South Africa, Zimbabwe, Mozambique, Botswana, Namibia,Zambia
If it is a visiting hunter yes he/she will be guided by a competent and suitably armed PH(or should be)...
First shot placement is the key to hunting and more so for dg. A proper controlled expansion bullet from 300gr 375 through the hart(not clipping) or just above the hart and through both lungs.....dead buffalo.....
And bear in mind that if the first shot is placed correctly there will not be a charge situation.....
First shot placement is the key to hunting and more so for dg. A proper controlled expansion bullet from 300gr 375 through the hart(not clipping) or just above the hart and through both lungs.....dead buffalo.....
And bear in mind that if the first shot is placed correctly there will not be a charge situation.....
Gentlemen.
Hunting cape buffalo is a game of specificity and details, not general theories and conjecture.
Examples 1.
Lots of people say, Don't take the frontal shot". What frontals shot are they talking about?
The one that most people take where they completely miss, at 50 yds, the 4"X 6" kill zone, and some times they miss the whole shoulder?
Or the 4"x 6" killing shot at the centre of the chest on a frontal shot. It's easy if the shooter is being specific about the sight picture. That is, everyone here should be able the take a scoped 30-06 and put 5 shots into a 2" bull off the sticks at 50 yards, if they are being specific. However, through my inquiries with PH's, I learned that half of the clients can't even hit the shoulder of a buffalo at 50 yards because they think too much and are not focused specifically on their sight picture. (Youtube videos show this many-a-time.)
Example 2.
People say "you should not take the frontal shot with a 375." What, specifically are they talking about? It is one of the few shot placements that always works with good old .375 ! I recently posted a specific example of this. You can line up the heart with complete specificity by shooting through that above mentioned 4"x 6" kill zone.
Example 3.
People say "Don't use solids on cape buffalo". Man, talk about a general statement!
What type solid are the talking about? There is a lot of daylight between the different kinds of solids. It has been tested, proven and documented, specifically and in much detail.
There is the old round nosed solid that seldom travel straight and deep through a cape buffalo and leaves a narrow wound channel. Then there is the flat nosed mono-metal solid with the proven 67% , specifically, meplat and the 13 degree ogive. Tested and proven in detail and specificity to be far superior to the older designs.
Example3.
The trampoline effect of a bullet entering through the thick hide of a cape buffalo. Sorry, but that is just theoretical conjecture.
The trampoline effect occurs when a bullet, has slowed down significantly because it has traversed through the buffalo and bounces back off of the hide, like a trampoline. on the opposites side of the buffalo. It does not occur when an undeformed bullet travelling at 1,800 - 2,200 fps hits the hide upon entering the animal. Gimme-a-break. Please refer to the specific detailed test that has prove that one.
Example 4.
People say "The bullet has to be placed in the vitals of the animal", or something like that.
Oh, I wish I thought of that!
Good shot placement is a specific mandatory requirement. It is the central element of specificity and detail that cape buffalo hunting is all about. We sometimes refer to good shot placement as something we hope to accomplish, some sort of option, or variable. Yikes!
If specific shot placement on an dangerous bovine, 50 yards away, with a heart lung kill zone the size of volley ball, is anything less than an absolutely specific necessity for us, then maybe we should take up pickle ball.
Novice cape buffalo hunters read this stuff we post for enjoyment and to learn.
Being a bullet nerd I appreciate it very much when other posters ask for tested and proven, specific and detailed info.
Happy Hunting.
Hunting cape buffalo is a game of specificity and details, not general theories and conjecture.
Examples 1.
Lots of people say, Don't take the frontal shot". What frontals shot are they talking about?
The one that most people take where they completely miss, at 50 yds, the 4"X 6" kill zone, and some times they miss the whole shoulder?
Or the 4"x 6" killing shot at the centre of the chest on a frontal shot. It's easy if the shooter is being specific about the sight picture. That is, everyone here should be able the take a scoped 30-06 and put 5 shots into a 2" bull off the sticks at 50 yards, if they are being specific. However, through my inquiries with PH's, I learned that half of the clients can't even hit the shoulder of a buffalo at 50 yards because they think too much and are not focused specifically on their sight picture. (Youtube videos show this many-a-time.)
Example 2.
People say "you should not take the frontal shot with a 375." What, specifically are they talking about? It is one of the few shot placements that always works with good old .375 ! I recently posted a specific example of this. You can line up the heart with complete specificity by shooting through that above mentioned 4"x 6" kill zone.
Example 3.
People say "Don't use solids on cape buffalo". Man, talk about a general statement!
What type solid are the talking about? There is a lot of daylight between the different kinds of solids. It has been tested, proven and documented, specifically and in much detail.
There is the old round nosed solid that seldom travel straight and deep through a cape buffalo and leaves a narrow wound channel. Then there is the flat nosed mono-metal solid with the proven 67% , specifically, meplat and the 13 degree ogive. Tested and proven in detail and specificity to be far superior to the older designs.
Example3.
The trampoline effect of a bullet entering through the thick hide of a cape buffalo. Sorry, but that is just theoretical conjecture.
The trampoline effect occurs when a bullet, has slowed down significantly because it has traversed through the buffalo and bounces back off of the hide, like a trampoline. on the opposites side of the buffalo. It does not occur when an undeformed bullet travelling at 1,800 - 2,200 fps hits the hide upon entering the animal. Gimme-a-break. Please refer to the specific detailed test that has prove that one.
Example 4.
People say "The bullet has to be placed in the vitals of the animal", or something like that.
Oh, I wish I thought of that!
Good shot placement is a specific mandatory requirement. It is the central element of specificity and detail that cape buffalo hunting is all about. We sometimes refer to good shot placement as something we hope to accomplish, some sort of option, or variable. Yikes!
If specific shot placement on an dangerous bovine, 50 yards away, with a heart lung kill zone the size of volley ball, is anything less than an absolutely specific necessity for us, then maybe we should take up pickle ball.
Novice cape buffalo hunters read this stuff we post for enjoyment and to learn.
Being a bullet nerd I appreciate it very much when other posters ask for tested and proven, specific and detailed info.
Happy Hunting.
michael458
AH fanatic
People say a lot of stupid things, stupid can't be cured. Trying to argue, or convince stupid of anything is a waste of time, and time is limited. Hopefully more open minded people are able to understand and work through the logic to come to a more reasonable conclusion. It was not so long ago "People Said" the world was flat, and that was accepted as fact, because People Say...............
Gday ivw
You are showing you do not have a good understanding what occurs in real life over a wide variety of conditions with different bullet designs @ various velocity impacts of which various levels of killing efficiency occurs & that is ok if you happy but to try & put a blanket statement like a 375 no good on buff frontal shots hmmm , come on man you are not in reality of the actual results as a well placed 375 bullet of good design will get pretty darn impressive results shot after shot & that’s a fact ( that’s one I’ll acknowledge even though the Jeffery is better with a good bullet & same placement now off the mark a touch on placement is another discussion for another time I’d say & most likely with other people with a broader view , with respect ) , now use a average to poor bullet design & watch the level of that combo kill in a way that is totally a polar opposite just as a 500 Jeffery does if one doesn’t understand some basics
So I’ll not bother you with why a GOOD SOLID is the BETTER OPTION in some situations that do occur in the field , another fact oh actually a couple facts occur or is it a few more hmmm definitely not one reason why
So unless one comes to the table with either facts or a open mind realistically it is of no use anyone trying too educate ( bad word by me most likely as probably better to have said a good discussion needed on facts not thoughts/theories )
enough said on that as I’ll move on too posts like @Brian #189 & thankyou sir that gives me confidence the discussion can continue that will educate us all ( although Brian you have 2 example #3’s lol ) so the 5 examples that will if one wants to engage & have a good discussion or dare I say “educate” ea other & im always open to being educated & this today is why we have better bullets today as history has shown when this thought process is undertaken improvement occurs even if that’s just our own knowledge base
Yes I look forward to those discussions of how we can best understand the bigger picture of where a bullet is better suited & where it’s not
Basically solids , expanding/trauma pills all have their place as one being better suited than the other visa versa regardless of caliber & that is one that is a great discussion we can have ??
Time will tell here
Cheers
You are showing you do not have a good understanding what occurs in real life over a wide variety of conditions with different bullet designs @ various velocity impacts of which various levels of killing efficiency occurs & that is ok if you happy but to try & put a blanket statement like a 375 no good on buff frontal shots hmmm , come on man you are not in reality of the actual results as a well placed 375 bullet of good design will get pretty darn impressive results shot after shot & that’s a fact ( that’s one I’ll acknowledge even though the Jeffery is better with a good bullet & same placement now off the mark a touch on placement is another discussion for another time I’d say & most likely with other people with a broader view , with respect ) , now use a average to poor bullet design & watch the level of that combo kill in a way that is totally a polar opposite just as a 500 Jeffery does if one doesn’t understand some basics
So I’ll not bother you with why a GOOD SOLID is the BETTER OPTION in some situations that do occur in the field , another fact oh actually a couple facts occur or is it a few more hmmm definitely not one reason why
So unless one comes to the table with either facts or a open mind realistically it is of no use anyone trying too educate ( bad word by me most likely as probably better to have said a good discussion needed on facts not thoughts/theories )
enough said on that as I’ll move on too posts like @Brian #189 & thankyou sir that gives me confidence the discussion can continue that will educate us all ( although Brian you have 2 example #3’s lol ) so the 5 examples that will if one wants to engage & have a good discussion or dare I say “educate” ea other & im always open to being educated & this today is why we have better bullets today as history has shown when this thought process is undertaken improvement occurs even if that’s just our own knowledge base
Yes I look forward to those discussions of how we can best understand the bigger picture of where a bullet is better suited & where it’s not
Basically solids , expanding/trauma pills all have their place as one being better suited than the other visa versa regardless of caliber & that is one that is a great discussion we can have ??
Time will tell here
Cheers
You are very consistent. I give you that.
You say, A proper controlled expansion bullet from 300gr 375 through the hart(not clipping) or just above the hart and through both lungs.....dead buffalo.....,"
I say, Yes I agree but sometimes it takes a while for them to die.
I used the 375 on six cape buffalo before I accepted that it wasn't for me. In that cycle, two of the buffalo that I shot, one cow and one bull, through the heart and both lungs with a 300 grain North Fork bullet just as you describe above. Both times it was close, about 30 yds. ( Lots of fun.)
Both time the buffalo instantly ran about 40 yards. The second one whipped past at about 10 yds, like a freight train. It was not a charge but it gave me something to think about, regarding the suitability of the 375 HH for cape buffalo.
I just had the pleasure of looking at your photos of what appears to be hunts that you guided. Right?
Great picture with very happy clients young and old. The excellent photos of the youngsters hunting especially appealed to me. Good Job ! Where did this hunts take place.
The pictures go up to Feb 2019 I think, did you do much guiding since then. Post some photos for us please. Thanks, Brian.
Gday
Pictures of dead critters are one that do interest me @Brian but it’s not the ones that most people show as it tells us nothing with respect
My interest is when I see people that are willing to dig in & have a look & measure like I am here
as then we can fully evaluate what the pill itself actually did against another & so on
A Baseline is needed & a lot of critters need to be assessed & recorded for a better understanding of what ea style /calibre/impact velocity/resistance does as then it gives us a better understanding of WHAT BULLET ACTUALLY DOES THE MOST DAMAGE & COVERS THE MOST BASES
Until those pictures & measurements are talked about in a more depth analysis one is basically left with nothing but the pictures of a dead critter that really dosent show us anything other than it died but the level @ which it occurs @ is the one that is based of facts not thoughts or theories
Until that day sadly most won’t get it ( with respect) but I’m lucky to rub shoulders with some who get it
Cheers
Pictures of dead critters are one that do interest me @Brian but it’s not the ones that most people show as it tells us nothing with respect
My interest is when I see people that are willing to dig in & have a look & measure like I am here
A Baseline is needed & a lot of critters need to be assessed & recorded for a better understanding of what ea style /calibre/impact velocity/resistance does as then it gives us a better understanding of WHAT BULLET ACTUALLY DOES THE MOST DAMAGE & COVERS THE MOST BASES
Until those pictures & measurements are talked about in a more depth analysis one is basically left with nothing but the pictures of a dead critter that really dosent show us anything other than it died but the level @ which it occurs @ is the one that is based of facts not thoughts or theories
Until that day sadly most won’t get it ( with respect) but I’m lucky to rub shoulders with some who get it
Cheers
Good job. You got it !
That's exactly what we are supposed to do, investigate and confirm bullet terminal performance. I am told by Ph's and skinners that few clients watch and learn at the skining shed when their animals are being skinned and cut up. That's why many posts on bullet performance mysteriously lack details and specificity. You just can't get the full story unless you see the wound channel and the spent bullet, right? If every DG hunter did what you are doing in this photo I can't imagine what would happen to Hornady's sales! L.O.L.
grand veneur
AH legend
- Joined
- Sep 1, 2019
- Messages
- 2,999
- Reaction score
- 7,103
- Location
- France/Germany
- Media
- 82
- Member of
- Schützengesellschaft Kreisgruppe LJV/RLP
It would certainly be advantageous to know, for every buffalo shot, exactly how it was taken, what was the bullet and the cartridge used. However, since most of the hunters do not shot enough buffalo in their lifetimes, reports from just one or a few person are insufficient to reach a definitive assessment of the performance of a bullet. A centralized online database should be established where any hunter who has taken a buffalo could enter relevant details, allowing for an evaluation based on a larger number of cases. The results of such objective studies are sometimes surprising, and Hornady might may be fare quite better. On a Forum, certain matters are judged very subjectively and uncritical by individual members who, moreover, often believe they are absolutely right.
Clodo Ferreira
AH elite
Gday Brian
The greatest lessons I got were from veterinarians & critter volume shooters ( the ones that went a little deeper than it was a dead critter & just a numbers person) but mostly to my mentor rest his sole as his words still ring true today for me
“Clear one’s head “ & “ keep shooting the pattern will come “
So a lot of factors that need to be taken into account but ultimately it’s the consistency of the pill’s ability over a wide variety of angles /resistances that will show the better designs showing the way forward as in the field we hear so many times one shouldn’t take that shot while it maybe true for some bullets it’s not the case as a blanket statement as one may not get the shot they we’re trying too achieve for various reasons as Murphy is never far away from the nut behind the trigger the critter itself , foreign matter prior to or on the critter or climatic conditions
So if one wants the odds in their favour a better bullet is a great start but one must record / measure not think we can or will remember let alone theorise
Cheers
Thanks & it’s been a big learning curve that’s for sure as in my early years I didn’t have a clue on what killed & made quite a few bad mistakes on what I was seeing & how that related to overall killing consistency or even to whom I listened too .
The greatest lessons I got were from veterinarians & critter volume shooters ( the ones that went a little deeper than it was a dead critter & just a numbers person) but mostly to my mentor rest his sole as his words still ring true today for me
“Clear one’s head “ & “ keep shooting the pattern will come “
Totally agree & Don’t worry it’s not only clients as I had one company out to Aussie taking well over 100 critters in about a week that one of the owners was more interested in the beer than understanding why subtle changes on various designs acted the way they did in critters & I soon learned he didn’t live up to the words he sprouted to many as was just a dead critter guy in disguise as had a major failure ( had multiple but this one stayed with me ) & got come on “it’s dead so who cares “& walked off yes I’ve learned a lot over the years but also more to learn as I did recently & yet still more to learn again
Yep
Yes that’s totally correct & a even better analysis of a bullets is to look for let alone find its weaknesses as then you get a better idea of where they will fail but also need to be careful on that as individuals we all have different levels of acceptable , one example, this can be simply from where one hunts as too one person a 100 yard run is totally acceptable where that result is unacceptable for another
So a lot of factors that need to be taken into account but ultimately it’s the consistency of the pill’s ability over a wide variety of angles /resistances that will show the better designs showing the way forward as in the field we hear so many times one shouldn’t take that shot while it maybe true for some bullets it’s not the case as a blanket statement as one may not get the shot they we’re trying too achieve for various reasons as Murphy is never far away from the nut behind the trigger the critter itself , foreign matter prior to or on the critter or climatic conditions
So if one wants the odds in their favour a better bullet is a great start but one must record / measure not think we can or will remember let alone theorise
That’s funny but also a little truth in it Hornady have had some very good designs over the years but to rate them as a DG pill that gives consistent results is one I’ve not seen & shot plenty of them from testing abilities of the pill itself to HAVING too use & why if you understand the limits of those designs you can stack the odds in your favour a bit more but I also know Murphy will get you eventually let alone the newcomer who reads the marketing crap or worse is mislead from others who are in a nutshell just a dead critter person & why I don’t use Them if I can help it for DG as total $hit ( use them like a frangible on placement & they work pretty well but watch the trainwreck occur on big bones & especially angles incorporated with them now that’s not every shot I get that but it’s way more than the better bullets & once again comes back to a individuals acceptance
Cheers
Gday grand veneur
Trust is a major one & along with you need actual occurrences not the it’s dead & all is good
It needs to be good data in to get good data out which Sadly a lot of people don’t know what they are looking for/at let alone believe they use the best bullet & it’s not until they see for their own eyes what went wrong then watch the next part occur of excuses or denial & then the smaller % of people go hmmm now I get it & finally understand why the warnings were made about that bullet by some
I enjoy talking to those who find where a pill has given less than ideal results ( actuals not one’s thoughts or can’t back up ) as then it’s easy to replicate & understand what they have seen with your own eyes but it may take quite a few critters to see it & why it’s critical on a good discussion but includes on having good data in !!!
Basically it’s just seeing the wood in the trees but for some even when the tree has been felled & cut up for firewood is hard for them lol
cheers
Some great thoughts but a couple flaws
Trust is a major one & along with you need actual occurrences not the it’s dead & all is good
It needs to be good data in to get good data out which Sadly a lot of people don’t know what they are looking for/at let alone believe they use the best bullet & it’s not until they see for their own eyes what went wrong then watch the next part occur of excuses or denial & then the smaller % of people go hmmm now I get it & finally understand why the warnings were made about that bullet by some
I enjoy talking to those who find where a pill has given less than ideal results ( actuals not one’s thoughts or can’t back up ) as then it’s easy to replicate & understand what they have seen with your own eyes but it may take quite a few critters to see it & why it’s critical on a good discussion but includes on having good data in !!!
Basically it’s just seeing the wood in the trees but for some even when the tree has been felled & cut up for firewood is hard for them lol
cheers
Kevin Peacocke
AH ambassador
- Joined
- Feb 10, 2018
- Messages
- 6,626
- Reaction score
- 25,116
- Location
- Harare Zimbabwe
- Media
- 111
- Articles
- 2
- Member of
- Cleveland Gun Club
- Hunted
- Zimbabwe, SouthAfrica
i hope this won't be a can of worms, but what does the group feel should be the minimum calibre for a PH to carry. To be specific let's assume with a client after buffalo.
Members online
- SWS1
- Tanner
- evamitabha
- BlueFlyer
- Uncontrolled_round_feed
- Sika98k
- Green Chile
- Matabele
- Mark458
- Sarg
- leslie hetrick
- WAB
- wilsonc
- THAT'S AFRICA SAFARI
- Timbila GAME LODGE
- Chris Burger
- Tally-Ho HUNTING SAFARIS
- txtrout75218
- Badboymelvin
- Dieseljzanzibar
- Sandlapper
- Gert Odendaal
- DieJager
- doctari505
- TXdawg
- vati
- godwincp
- WesRic404Jeff
- Ontario Hunter
- Fabnosh
- Wildwillalaska
- spike.t
- jpg
- Niklas
- Landlock91
- DERIAN KOEKEMOER SAFARIS
- Dave303
- JeramyWhit
- Cabelcan
- Piet Brood
- Woodcarver
- KSummers207
- Smitty
- Tubby’s Canteen
- Rumrunner
- Jon Glajchen
- KIH
- csmiffy
- wilderleafausa
- Sh1kar
Forum statistics
Latest profile posts
Check out our new updated availability on my posts!
Huntforever wrote on dhoover's profile.
You’re the 2nd person on this thread from Arkansas. I live in Benton.
Do you hunt out of state much?
Do you hunt out of state much?
