Rabbit hole of accuracy

I have a 308 Norma Mag that shoots 180 grain Maximus sub MOA. But, with a Benchmark heavy barrel, and an excellent gunsmith to put it together, I feel like I can squeeze some really unnecessary (for me) accuracy out of this still.

I am curious, what are your top three tips to getting the absolute most out of your cartridges? When you have done the basics to good effect, what would you do next to tighten it up further. I just feel that I owe it to this cartridge and rifle to go down this rabbit hole.

Brass quality and consistency on the shoulder bump and neck tension. More so consistent loading than chasing a specific number.
I’ve used mediocre components before but had phenomenal accuracy because the ammo was so consistent shot to shot.
That and a good trigger and bedding job to mess with torque settings on the action and see how it affects groups.

Partial neck size only.

Bullet seating depth variations for bullet jump to the rifling.

High accuracy starts with high levels of precision. Accuracy being hitting what you aim at and precision being consistently hitting the same place in a tightly clustered group. Generally, when we talk about a rifle shooting sub moa groups we really mean that it is achieving a high degree of precision. As a former benchrest champion, the goal is to optimize both precision and accuracy. To get there is a journey of managing all of the variables that we the shooter can control and minimizing the impact of those which are out of our control (i.e Wind).

I like to start with the big things first and then work my way down to the small stuff.

• Get a solid rest that is supported on both ends of the rifle and when you do this the POA will remain when you relax your grip. Most poor shooting comes from poor aiming. Sounds easy but the difference is real.
• Aim with precision. If you cannot see your target well, you cannot shoot well. Get your eyes checked and make sure they are corrected to 20:20. Use good sights, optics that have the ability to help you aim to the exact same point for every shot. The reticle on the scope is more important than the power of magnification. And for hunting, too much magnification can be a handicap since it makes target acquisition harder.
• Eye vitamins like Ocuvite is helpful for older shooters. I take one every day.
• I like to say that the rifle does not know what tool you are using to aim it and it will shoot the same if aimed well with iron sights or a 3x optic or a 24x optic. The only difference is your ability to see well and thus aim well.
• One of my favorite hunting scopes is a little 1-8x LPVO that is fast and handy but has a tiny bright illuminated dot in the center of the reticle. it is a 0.1 mil dot inside of a 1 mil horseshoe in the middle of a mil dot cross in the middle of a big lighted ring. At 1x I can shoot with both eyes open like a red dot and at 8x I can shoot precisely at 400y using the little itty bitty dot. I can shoot slightly better with a 5-25x target optic but it is useless for hunting unless it is only varmints like ground hogs or prairie dogs.
• After aiming, the consistency of the ammo is important. Handloading is the best answer in most cases but for hunting rifles I do not usually reload since I do not shoot them enough to justify the cost in dies and components. Plus, I have found that the SD's and ES of some of the best ammo today is better than I can load at home. Some of the best ammo from Barnes, Federal and Hornady is getting SD's of 2.x in many of my rifles all while having some of the highest velocities in their caliber class. This contributes directly to precision and accuracy.
• Heavy for caliber bullets and copper mono bullets are longer then typical and can be harder to stabilize. Be sure to test your ammo at the range before you hunt with it. I tried to use 180g Swift A-Frames in my 308 for my first Safari but my older FN Browning did not stabilize these very well. I ended up using 180g Fed Fusions instead.
• A good crisp trigger is important but I am NOT a fan of a super light trigger for hunting. You can use one for benchrest shooting but it only masks bad shooting technique and may lead to bad habits. I prefer a 1.5-2.5 lb trigger on all of my rifles.
• Use a consistent hold on each rifle. Some want to be held tight and some loose but learn what works and repeat it every shot.
• How you clean your bbl has a direct impact on your precision and that affects your accuracy. Do not remove all of the copper fouling from the bore. Instead, only scour the surface fouling using a very mild abrasive such as KG #2 on a cotton patch. Avoid harsh solvents. Instead swab with a carbon solvent first, the Bore cleaner 2nd and then more carbon solvent and finish with a dry patch. This leaves some copper filling the pot holes in the surface of the bore and will not harm the steel. They are microscopic but it leaves a smoother bore that leads to a more accurate cold bore 1st shot. When hunting we do not get to warm up. That 1st shot is critical and often is high and right of all the shots to follow. If this is off by only 1/2" it is not a problem but if it is off by 3", that is an issue. I clean my bore after every range or hunting session. I can get it consistently clean but cannot keep it consistently dirty. Consistency is the goal.
• I have read that copper mono bullets do not shoot well in a bbl that was fouled with lead core copper jacketed bullets? I have tested this many times with many calibers from 243 to 375 and have not found any meaningful proof that this is true. What I have found is that copper monos can foul a bbl faster and if already heavily fouled this might be an issue. Clean your rifle. The BS spouted about the guy who had never cleaned his rifle for 20yrs and cleaned it only to have it stop shooting well is just that. BS. When this happens it is usually the guy who cleaned it with harsh solvent or using electrolysis methods. This removes all of the copper which then does take time to replace. Proper cleaning prevents this and only takes about 5 min and about five patches.
• Practice. Marksmanship is a perishable skill. If you have not been to the range in six months, it is hard to expect to shoot well. Before a big hunt, I try to shoot every week with my hunting rifle and every day with a rimfire 22lr from sticks. The loose nut behind the trigger is one of the biggest variables of all.
• If you reload there is a whole list of things that can be tried from powders, primers, neck tension, jump distance to the lands, etc. This is the small stuff that gets lost in the noise until you have controlled all of the big stuff first.

There are other things but these are a good place to start. Keep in mind that until you are shooting 1/2" groups at 100y, it is hard to even see the affect of some of the smaller variables. When you are shooting 1/4" groups at 100y you have begun to reach your full potential. The pic below is five shots fired on an outdoor range at 50y with a 22lr. Precise and Accurate.... Well the group was off a little to the right, lol.

Pheroze said:

.....I just feel that I owe it to this cartridge and rifle to go down this rabbit hole.

Click to expand...

You are in serious trouble now....


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Pheroze said:

I have a 308 Norma Mag that shoots 180 grain Maximus sub MOA. But, with a Benchmark heavy barrel, and an excellent gunsmith to put it together, I feel like I can squeeze some really unnecessary (for me) accuracy out of this still.

I am curious, what are your top three tips to getting the absolute most out of your cartridges? When you have done the basics to good effect, what would you do next to tighten it up further. I just feel that I owe it to this cartridge and rifle to go down this rabbit hole.

Click to expand...

@Pheroze
Once you go down that rabbit hole you are screwed. You will either go deeper or be in a big rush to get back to Kansas Dorothy
You will be wanting to be changing seating depths, powder charges by .2 grains up or down, powder type, primer type case brand neck tension,crimp no crimp and that's only for one projectile .
Change projectile and start again down deeper into the rabbit hole.
Your rifle already shoots sub moa so why worry. The animals you shoot won't care if'n your rifle shoots bughole groups or 2".
As long as you are comfortable with your set up and know what it and you can do the world is good.
If'n y'all go down that rabbit hole don't forgit your red shoes so you can get back to Kansas once you realise you have been playing mad hatter.
Bob

@Pheroze, I reload and I can talk out of both sides of my mouth on this subject. With plenty of time on my hands and very little to do, playing with all of the variables can be fun as well as rewarding. But the main question is to what end? I've followed Nathan Foster's writings for years. He touts achieving 1/4 MOA out of his most accurate hunting rifles. Benchrest shooters do better than that on occasion. However, you don't strike me as a guy that wants or needs to hunt at long distances i.e. 7 to 8 hundred yards or shoot Palma matches.

But to answer your question, I will use a Hornady Concentricity Gage to ensure that my run - out is a maximum of .0015" to .002".

Shootist43 said:

@Pheroze, I reload and I can talk out of both sides of my mouth on this subject. With plenty of time on my hands and very little to do, playing with all of the variables can be fun as well as rewarding. But the main question is to what end? I've followed Nathan Foster's writings for years. He touts achieving 1/4 MOA out of his most accurate hunting rifles. Benchrest shooters do better than that on occasion. However, you don't strike me as a guy that wants or needs to hunt at long distances i.e. 7 to 8 hundred yards or shoot Palma matches.

But to answer your question, I will use a Hornady Concentricity Gage to ensure that my run - out is a maximum of .0015" to .002".

Click to expand...

It is solely to give myself a project. My longest shot was 290 yards and I never intend to do that unless I have to.

Thanks for the tip!

For what it is worth, I have found range accuracy to be roughly twice as good as field accuracy (precision also). Why? The varied conditions and less than perfect rest available even with quad sticks plus being out of breath or excited, rushing a shot or yanking a trigger, all comes into play. When I test or set up a rifle, I always shoot from a bench with sand bags but after that, I shoot from sticks if that is how I plan to hunt. Even that small change will cause a 1" group to open up to 1.5 or 2". Throw in wind, excitement, hiking up a mountain or across a donga and you can see how field accuracy is never as good. But, if your Eland or Moose kill zone is 16" wide and your 416 Creedmore (Need more than a 416? Go with the 450 Creedmore, lol) is shooting 3" groups at that distance from sticks, then line up the sights and send it.

For practice, I like to set up a steel tgt that is roughly half the size of the kill zone of my intended quarry and then shoot at 200y standing from sticks. It is a great confidence booster to do that and hit a 6" or 8" plate five or six times in a row. I repaint the plate first so I can spot my hits and by doing this a few times right before my hunt, it makes taking the kill shot something that becomes a foregone conclusion. By doing my homework first, I know the outcome before I take the shot. As ethical hunters, I think we all try to do that. As an Eastern woods hunter, precise marksmanship was never an issue as a long shot for one of us was usually anything over about 100y and most shots were inside 50-60y. Even down in Texas, our longest shot out of five was 237y and that was a chip shot considering our prior practice. All but one dropped in its tracks and the one was well hit but ran about 150y before finished with a followup. Below is my son with his Nilgai taken at 237y with one shot off sticks using his left hand Mauser Shaw custom in 338wm. Ammo was 225g Nosler AB's. The Shaw bbl is the Easy Button for precision shooting with a hunting rifle. Stunningly accurate. I have a 375 that is equally precise using a Shaw bbl. The rest of us used Barnes TTSX ammo.

Lots of good info to consider
Having shot the 1000 yd game for years I have a few more considerations for you.

1. Select the bullet ( mfg., weight, shape) that is compatible with barrel twist and unique barrel harmonics. Many many $$$$ and time in this process of work up

2. Select the powder giving Your Rifle the best accuracy Many $$$$ and time in this process
Then purchase an 8 lb keg to avoid having to buy 1 lb cans with different lot numbers over the season.

3. Select your brass manufacturer by experimenting with various suppliers
Hard to go wrong with Lapua brass to start(expensive). Weigh each case to exclude 5+ grains +\_ the unit average weight . This means after evaluation of manufacturers you will need to purchase 500 cases of your best test results to avoid having to purchase the same brass with different Lot #s

4. Primers are another study of trail and error
Muliple primers are all a bit different in flame temp/volume etc, you need to match this to your selected powder based on cup weight and velocity ,SD not just velocity ,all time consuming but rewarding.

5. Trying to shoot 6/8 inch 10 shot groups at 1000 yds ( just to place or show )requires special equipment, ammo and personal commitment.
It is a terrific learning experience. I thoroughly endorse the effort

Welcome to the rabbit hole….
Can’t really add much to what’s already been said…

I found that using mandrels and experimenting with neck tension, instead of using the expander in the die improved my hunting loads immediately.