404 Jeffery Build on a standard action ??

Ontario Hunter said:
I disagree. The 404 cartridge was designed to fit a standard action 98 Mauser, not a magnum action. Standard action has a shorter bolt throw which, theoretically, reduces the probability of short stroking and jamming the gun = not a good situation if a 1700 lb hurt animal seeks his revenge up close and personal. Standard action is also lighter, and MUCH cheaper/easier to acquire. Replacement parts are also much easier to find for standard length Mauser (e.g. extractor, bolt, and striker).

There is absolutely no advantage to building 404 on a magnum Mauser action. It's a myth. The only convenience would be magnum's longer magazine but that's an easy fix with standard action. On the other hand, building 375 H&H and 416 Rigby on standard action, while it can be done, is a more difficult project as it requires relieving the locking ring to allow for ejection of much longer loaded cartridges. I would prefer magnum action for those builds but the cost of acquiring one would likely be more than having a machinist/gunsmith make a standard action work.
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This is exactly why the 404 Short was developed.
The 404 has an unnecessarily long neck so by shortening the neck the case, the feed ramp work can be largely obviated. All other dimensions of the chamber remaining the same.
 
I
Huvius said:
This is exactly why the 404 Short was developed.
The 404 has an unnecessarily long neck so by shortening the neck the case, the feed ramp work can be largely obviated. All other dimensions of the chamber remaining the same.
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That’s interesting! I’ve never heard of 404S.
 
SwampTrooper said:
Agreed but the idea is to have a project that is reminiscent of the originals.
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To replicate the un availibilty of magnum actions at the time why??
Just build it right it is 2026 not 1926.....
 
Ontario Hunter said:
I disagree. The 404 cartridge was designed to fit a standard action 98 Mauser, not a magnum action. Standard action has a shorter bolt throw which, theoretically, reduces the probability of short stroking and jamming the gun = not a good situation if a 1700 lb hurt animal seeks his revenge up close and personal. Standard action is also lighter, and MUCH cheaper/easier to acquire. Replacement parts are also much easier to find for standard length Mauser (e.g. extractor, bolt, and striker).

There is absolutely no advantage to building 404 on a magnum Mauser action. It's a myth. The only convenience would be magnum's longer magazine but that's an easy fix with standard action. On the other hand, building 375 H&H and 416 Rigby on standard action, while it can be done, is a more difficult project as it requires relieving the locking ring to allow for ejection of much longer loaded cartridges. I would prefer magnum action for those builds but the cost of acquiring one would likely be more than having a machinist/gunsmith make a standard action work.
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Bullshit.....
 
Prior to 1912 Jeffery built their .404 rifles on modified Standard Mauser 98 actions. After 1912 they used Magnum Mauser 98 actions to build their .404 rifles.
Onky due to non availibilty of magnum action pre 1912.....
 
Standard action Mauser can eject a loaded 404J cartridge without modifying the locking ring or ejector. But just barely. Jeffery designed the cartridge in 1905 to just fit the standard action. Its sloping shoulder also allows for clearance during cycling in a tight fitting receiver. It's actually an engineering marvel. I believe magnum actions typically carried an extra round in the chamber vs standard action. But extended magazines for the standard actions have been available forever if one feels the need. Just makes the gun heavier.
 
IvW said:
To replicate the un availibilty of magnum actions at the time why??
Just build it right it is 2026 not 1926.....
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There is nothing "wrong" with building a 404J on a standard action. The one I built cycles flawlessly and puts bullets on top of each other at 50 yards. Looks pretty good too.
20240420_112851_resized_6.jpg

Let's see ... I paid ~$300 for my Czech military donor action. If you could even find a bare bones magnum Mauser action for sale, you'd be lucky if the vendor would let you have it for $6K. Then suppose the extractor breaks. See if you can find a magnum extractor for sale anywhere. Good luck! Magnum firing pins have been known to break too. You won't find one of those on ebay! Maybe Mauser might sell you one ( = $$$!). And it might show up in your mailbox in a couple of months. Just about any day I can find any part for standard Mausers everywhere on the net. And dirt cheap. Building a magnum action 404J might be asthetically "right" but from a practical or historical perspective it's not right at all.
 
IvW said:
To replicate the un availibilty of magnum actions at the time why??
Just build it right it is 2026 not 1926.....
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You strike me as “a rifle is just a tool” kind of guy.

In response to your question of why do this:

1. Feel free to send me a few thousand for a new magnum action and I’ll make it.
2. Gunmaking is a fun hobby and does connect me to a sense of history related to safari hunting that goes back over a century.
3. I already have a magnum length action rifle that I like and want to do something else for fun.
 
alby said:
I like the straight bolt handle and what looks a larger bolt knob!
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thank you! I chose it for this reason. It’s the distinctly WWI profile and it’s a strong look. If you look at the new m98s made by Mauser they have returned to this pear shape or sometimes called teardrop profile with oversized straight bolt.
 
IvW said:
Prior to 1912 Jeffery built their .404 rifles on modified Standard Mauser 98 actions.
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So aren't you therefore confirming that the 404 Jeffery was designed around the standard action?
 
They put 375, 404 and 416 rigby on standard actions after a lot of modifications. The 404 case is longer than the 375 case. Nether will fit a standard action as is.
 
Flewis said:
They put 375, 404 and 416 rigby on standard actions after a lot of modifications. The 404 case is longer than the 375 case. Nether will fit a standard action as is.
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You’re right on all counts. The 375 is a longer case than the 404 but the 375 also has a longer overall length by just a bit.
 
You will also running a cartridge with the potential for much higher bolt thrust. Those old actions are not that strong. When the wsms came out they were setting the bolts back on some Mausers. I’ve talked to 2 custom builders that told me that.
 
Flewis said:
You will also running a cartridge with the potential for much higher bolt thrust. Those old actions are not that strong. When the wsms came out they were setting the bolts back on some Mausers. I’ve talked to 2 custom builders that told me that.
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WSM has significantly higher bolt thrust than the 404 at about 14k lbs. The 404 is not a modern magnum and it lies in between bolt thrust of the 30-06 and .300wsm, which the Mauser 98 can easily handle it. As a moderate pressure load with moderate bolt thrust, the 98 should be fine as is but with a new manufactured barrel with newly cut headspace, combined with lapped lugs pressure load is even further distributed and the likelihood of sheering greatly reduced. The bolt thrust is still the bolt thrust but with spec ammunition and new proper barrel, you’re well within the original design envelope of the g98.
 
Flewis said:
They put 375, 404 and 416 rigby on standard actions after a lot of modifications. The 404 case is longer than the 375 case. Nether will fit a standard action as is.
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Look above. I built my 404 on a standard action without modifying the locking ring or the ejector. It cycles full length cartridges just fine. Required opening the bolt face, modifying the extractor to accept wider rims, moving the loading ramp forward, changing the bottom metal (I used 416 Rem), modifying the belly of receiver to match the new bottom metal, and tuning the rails and follower to allow the cartridges to jump to the bolt face just as the bullets enter the chamber. Significant modification yes but not as significant as 416 or 375 builds on standard 98 Mauser. Those require rebating the locking ring to allow longer loaded cartridges to be ejected when clearing the rifle.

Standard 98 Mauser was tough enough for 404J. For forty years Harry Selby backed up clients with a standard 98 Mauser built into 416 Rigby. And 416 Rigby dishes out a lot more recoil than 404J.
 
SwampTrooper said:
WSM has significantly higher bolt thrust than the 404 at about 14k lbs. The 404 is not a modern magnum and it lies in between bolt thrust of the 30-06 and .300wsm, which the Mauser 98 can easily handle it. As a moderate pressure load with moderate bolt thrust, the 98 should be fine as is but with a new manufactured barrel with newly cut headspace, combined with lapped lugs pressure load is even further distributed and the likelihood of sheering greatly reduced. The bolt thrust is still the bolt thrust but with spec ammunition and new proper barrel, you’re well within the original design envelope of the g98.
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I was pretty much saying don’t hot rod it. My 404 is a mrc 1999.
 
I seem to recall one former member Von Gruff put a lot of gas behind his 404 handloads and never had issues with his standard action failing. Hornady supes up their factory ammo to 4300 fps and I haven't heard any complaints about rifle failures. As @SwampTrooper indicated, it is possible to lap the lugs enough to activate the third safety lug but consensus seems to be it's unnecessary unless one is playing with wildcat cartridges meant for killing tanks.

I knew nothing about "bolt thrust" till this thread so I did some homework. Interesting that it's estimated using clean ammo and a dry chamber will reduce bolt thrust 40% or more. Lubricated ammo will deliver full thrust to the bolt face. But before I go wipe down all my 404 cartridges, I'm wondering if firing dry ammo doesn't shorten brass life by causing cases to stretch more ( = more brass lost from mouth of cases due to trimming)? Perhaps I'll try an experiment with my 30-06. I have lots of brass for that rifle.
 
FWIW,
I design custom barrel contours, mostly integral (qrib, banded sling, banded front base), for all kinds of chambers and as such, to my own criteria, I calculate the stresses on the barrel, chamber and action. Sometime back, looked at the CZ factory barrel contour and magnum action with a double tapered barrel i was using for a 470 Capstick, for the 404 Jeffery.
Due to the shallow taper of the 404, the bolt thrust is reduced by almost 43%


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