Has Anyone Hunted With John X Safaris? Watched Their Youtube Videos?

I am curious what people who have hunted with JohnX Safaris thinks of them. The search function on AH for "John X" or "JohnX" safaris doesn't seem to return any trip reports or threads.

Their price list seems to be on the high end for a lot of animals. Some are about average, but overall trends towards the higher end. Same with their day rates. They do have a pretty reasonable rate on filming your hunt. I am guessing because they post it to their Youtube channel.

I think their hunt videos online are some of the best edited and production quality Africa hunt videos I have seen. They are just consistently well done.


For people that have hunted with them. Did you think that the higher end prices for day rates and trophy fees were worth it? Did you feel like it was a better experience from other SA camps you've been to?

I have not hunted with them, but you might want to give this podcast a listen. I really enjoyed it. He gives his explanation on pricing/value and how he thinks game should be managed in it.

375Fox said:

I have not hunted with them, but you might want to give this podcast a listen. I really enjoyed it. He gives his explanation on pricing/value and how he thinks game should be managed in it.

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I've been watching this off and on when I have spare time. I am an hour into the 1.5 hour video so far. It is a very interesting video so far. He makes some very interesting points about a lot of things especially PH and business culture. I am past the part where he discusses the financial side.

Don't read this next part as argumentative or heated. It's just my opinion on the conversation.

I get his feelings on it. But I feel like he is heavily misjudging many realities when he says he thinks that SA needs to "get inline with elk hunting prices in the US". And he says that they are way undervaluing their animals based on the out west hunting prices on animals like elk.

For one, our out west hunting has been broken for a while and it seems to just be getting worse in a lot of ways. There is still opportunity there, but it has become more like finding a needle in a haystack. That itself is why so many people are now turning to places like Africa and other countries to do their hunts. Many people feel like the NA hunts have become not worth the value for the costs.

Very very few people are going to pay the same money to hunt a Kudu as they pay to hunt an elk. Almost no one is going to pay that year after year. Very very few people are going to pay the same money to hunt a bushbuck that they pay to hunt a whitetail. Almost no one is going to pay that year after year.

I also think he ignores a lot of factors that already keep a lot of people from going to Africa, which will just be exacerbated if you drastically raise prices. Let's call them "barriers to entry", that don't exist in US hunts for US or NA clients. Many people don't want to do the super long flights, so travel itself is a barrier to entry. Many people are scared of a foreign country and have to overcome that. Then, when considering a hunt in Africa or most other countries people have so many extra costs that aren't there in NA hunts, or are much less. Flight and hotel in JNB is about $3,000 per person for a cattle class seat. Dip and Pack can easily be $1,500. Shipping Say $2,000. Import fees $1,000+. So if a guy and his wife (or buddy) goes, You are starting out with about $10,000+ in costs to travel and get your animals back. Those same things for a NA hunter going to hunt in NA are typically covered by $200-$500 in gas.

A big reason people choose Africa over the western US right now is because they feel like NA hunts have gotten out of control in pricing. So, if the goal is to "get inline" with that. People are just not going to go. Obviously some still will, but unlike NA, South Africa has way more animals and not much for tag limitations. So it's not a super limited supply that will sustain as an industry with just a handful of super wealthy clients per year. Which is essentially what keeps things like sheep hunts and things like that in NA afloat.

In my opinion, at least for SA, it doesn't make a lot of sense to try and raise prices inline with NA hunts. But the prices have been going up somewhat rapidly in the last 5 years or so. So, I suppose we will see how it plays out in the market in real time.

I personally think that we are in a bubble when it comes to the hunting market. Hunting trips are a luxury item and I think when the bubble bursts the high prices won't be sustainable, especially for "lower end" plentiful animals.

Sabre said:

I've been watching this off and on when I have spare time. I am an hour into the 1.5 hour video so far. It is a very interesting video so far. He makes some very interesting points about a lot of things especially PH and business culture. I am past the part where he discusses the financial side.

Don't read this next part as argumentative or heated. It's just my opinion on the conversation.

I get his feelings on it. But I feel like he is heavily misjudging many realities when he says he thinks that SA needs to "get inline with elk hunting prices in the US". And he says that they are way undervaluing their animals based on the out west hunting prices on animals like elk.

For one, our out west hunting has been broken for a while and it seems to just be getting worse in a lot of ways. There is still opportunity there, but it has become more like finding a needle in a haystack. That itself is why so many people are now turning to places like Africa and other countries to do their hunts. Many people feel like the NA hunts have become not worth the value for the costs.

Very very few people are going to pay the same money to hunt a Kudu as they pay to hunt an elk. Almost no one is going to pay that year after year. Very very few people are going to pay the same money to hunt a bushbuck that they pay to hunt a whitetail. Almost no one is going to pay that year after year.

I also think he ignores a lot of factors that already keep a lot of people from going to Africa, which will just be exacerbated if you drastically raise prices. Let's call them "barriers to entry", that don't exist in US hunts for US or NA clients. Many people don't want to do the super long flights, so travel itself is a barrier to entry. Many people are scared of a foreign country and have to overcome that. Then, when considering a hunt in Africa or most other countries people have so many extra costs that aren't there in NA hunts, or are much less. Flight and hotel in JNB is about $3,000 per person for a cattle class seat. Dip and Pack can easily be $1,500. Shipping Say $2,000. Import fees $1,000+. So if a guy and his wife (or buddy) goes, You are starting out with about $10,000+ in costs to travel and get your animals back. Those same things for a NA hunter going to hunt in NA are typically covered by $200-$500 in gas.

A big reason people choose Africa over the western US right now is because they feel like NA hunts have gotten out of control in pricing. So, if the goal is to "get inline" with that. People are just not going to go. Obviously some still will, but unlike NA, South Africa has way more animals and not much for tag limitations. So it's not a super limited supply that will sustain as an industry with just a handful of super wealthy clients per year. Which is essentially what keeps things like sheep hunts and things like that in NA afloat.

In my opinion, at least for SA, it doesn't make a lot of sense to try and raise prices inline with NA hunts. But the prices have been going up somewhat rapidly in the last 5 years or so. So, I suppose we will see how it plays out in the market in real time.

I personally think that we are in a bubble when it comes to the hunting market. Hunting trips are a luxury item and I think when the bubble bursts the high prices won't be sustainable, especially for "lower end" plentiful animals.

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I suggested another member listen to that podcast and interestingly he picked up on the same line. I haven’t listened in some time to remember exactly but I interpreted differently. I’d gladly pay more for a focus on quality and age based management. I think the race to the bottom of cheapest pricing regardless of quality and false advertising is dangerous for hunting. For North American pricing, I agree it’s insane and doesn’t necessarily reflect quality, but I don’t think we are in a bubble that will ever burst. It might plateau, but that’s best case scenario. Regardless, I thought the interview would give you some insight. If you aren’t a podcast listener, it’s a lot easier to listen on Spotify or Apple podcasts while doing other things rather than watching YouTube. It’s just easier to attach YouTube link to AH.

Sabre said:

I've been watching this off and on when I have spare time. I am an hour into the 1.5 hour video so far. It is a very interesting video so far. He makes some very interesting points about a lot of things especially PH and business culture. I am past the part where he discusses the financial side.

Don't read this next part as argumentative or heated. It's just my opinion on the conversation.

I get his feelings on it. But I feel like he is heavily misjudging many realities when he says he thinks that SA needs to "get inline with elk hunting prices in the US". And he says that they are way undervaluing their animals based on the out west hunting prices on animals like elk.

For one, our out west hunting has been broken for a while and it seems to just be getting worse in a lot of ways. There is still opportunity there, but it has become more like finding a needle in a haystack. That itself is why so many people are now turning to places like Africa and other countries to do their hunts. Many people feel like the NA hunts have become not worth the value for the costs.

Very very few people are going to pay the same money to hunt a Kudu as they pay to hunt an elk. Almost no one is going to pay that year after year. Very very few people are going to pay the same money to hunt a bushbuck that they pay to hunt a whitetail. Almost no one is going to pay that year after year.

I also think he ignores a lot of factors that already keep a lot of people from going to Africa, which will just be exacerbated if you drastically raise prices. Let's call them "barriers to entry", that don't exist in US hunts for US or NA clients. Many people don't want to do the super long flights, so travel itself is a barrier to entry. Many people are scared of a foreign country and have to overcome that. Then, when considering a hunt in Africa or most other countries people have so many extra costs that aren't there in NA hunts, or are much less. Flight and hotel in JNB is about $3,000 per person for a cattle class seat. Dip and Pack can easily be $1,500. Shipping Say $2,000. Import fees $1,000+. So if a guy and his wife (or buddy) goes, You are starting out with about $10,000+ in costs to travel and get your animals back. Those same things for a NA hunter going to hunt in NA are typically covered by $200-$500 in gas.

A big reason people choose Africa over the western US right now is because they feel like NA hunts have gotten out of control in pricing. So, if the goal is to "get inline" with that. People are just not going to go. Obviously some still will, but unlike NA, South Africa has way more animals and not much for tag limitations. So it's not a super limited supply that will sustain as an industry with just a handful of super wealthy clients per year. Which is essentially what keeps things like sheep hunts and things like that in NA afloat.

In my opinion, at least for SA, it doesn't make a lot of sense to try and raise prices inline with NA hunts. But the prices have been going up somewhat rapidly in the last 5 years or so. So, I suppose we will see how it plays out in the market in real time.

I personally think that we are in a bubble when it comes to the hunting market. Hunting trips are a luxury item and I think when the bubble bursts the high prices won't be sustainable, especially for "lower end" plentiful animals.

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Very well said Sir, I agree 100%!!!

I have a friend whose first Safari ever was with JohnX. He typically goes to Africa at least a time or two a year, and has hunted several additional countries outside South Africa to include at least Mozambique, Zambia and Namibia. Until our recent trip to Zambia with Strang Middleton I can say that first hunt with JohnX was his favorite. Now he really wants to get back to Zambia and is chomping at the bit to get his trophy’s from our hunt with Strang back.

375Fox said:

I suggested another member listen to that podcast and interestingly he picked up on the same line. I haven’t listened in some time to remember exactly but I interpreted differently. I’d gladly pay more for a focus on quality and age based management. I think the race to the bottom of cheapest pricing regardless of quality and false advertising is dangerous for hunting. For North American pricing, I agree it’s insane and doesn’t necessarily reflect quality, but I don’t think we are in a bubble that will ever burst. It might plateau, but that’s best case scenario. Regardless, I thought the interview would give you some insight. If you aren’t a podcast listener, it’s a lot easier to listen on Spotify or Apple podcasts while doing other things rather than watching YouTube. It’s just easier to attach YouTube link to AH.

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I think we likely likely agree on 90-95% of this with a 5-10% difference in opinion on interpretation.

375Fox said:

I’d gladly pay more for a focus on quality and age based management. I think the race to the bottom of cheapest pricing regardless of quality and false advertising is dangerous for hunting.

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I also don't mind the idea of somewhat higher prices for higher quality animals at outfitters who can actually produce those higher quality animals. I just feel like he was painting with a broad brush that they all have been undervaluing their animals. The reality is that often what happens with situations like this is that everyone raises their prices across the board whether they have the quality or not. Then that becomes the going rate for a hunt. I also think that is dangerous for hunting.

375Fox said:

For North American pricing, I agree it’s insane and doesn’t necessarily reflect quality.

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This is what worries me when he says he wants to get inline with NA and elk pricing, especially post covid pricing he mentions specifically.

375Fox said:

I don’t think we are in a bubble that will ever burst. It might plateau, but that’s best case scenario.

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This might be true. Prices may stagnate and just remain a certain price until they are "cheaper" in comparison with how the economy is doing. But that isn't necessarily a sign that the bubble didn't burst. It would more so indicate stubbornness and a large enough bank account of the seller to hold out. Sort of like car dealerships in the last 2-3 years. Either way, I agree it may not make prices plummet all of a sudden, but I do feel like it ends up with a similar result.

375Fox said:

Regardless, I thought the interview would give you some insight. If you aren’t a podcast listener, it’s a lot easier to listen on Spotify or Apple podcasts while doing other things rather than watching YouTube. It’s just easier to attach YouTube link to AH.

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I have enjoyed listening to the podcast and do appreciate the insight. Thank you for sharing it.

The one factor (generally speaking) that pushed me over the edge to send a deposit to Limpopo in 2022, was the cost of a four to five animal safari plus great accommodations, plus incredible variety for less than an Unguided elk hunt would have been. That's right. Unguided. Honestly, I haven't looked at a bull elk hunt since. As stated about, if the going rate on a kudu suddenly goes to 15,000 USD plus daily rates, flight, etc. we will see more and more sheep and cattle farms popping up in South Africa.

Hedge774 said:

The one factor (generally speaking) that pushed me over the edge to send a deposit to Limpopo in 2022, was the cost of a four to five animal safari plus great accommodations, plus incredible variety for less than an Unguided elk hunt would have been. That's right. Unguided. Honestly, I haven't looked at a bull elk hunt since. As stated about, if the going rate on a kudu suddenly goes to 15,000 USD plus daily rates, flight, etc. we will see more and more sheep and cattle farms popping up in South Africa.

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If you were to take 3 kudu at a full price or 6 at a half price the revenue is the same. Kudu aren’t going to $15k anytime soon, but an old bull should be worth more than a bull that just reached it’s potential and gets harvested as a crop. I don’t see much difference between some of the Limpopo packages on small farms and livestock farming. I’d rather see increased focus on quality than volume. South Africa loses a lot of clients who look elsewhere on the continent to find that quality.

375Fox said:

I suggested another member listen to that podcast and interestingly he picked up on the same line. I haven’t listened in some time to remember exactly but I interpreted differently. I’d gladly pay more for a focus on quality and age based management. I think the race to the bottom of cheapest pricing regardless of quality and false advertising is dangerous for hunting. For North American pricing, I agree it’s insane and doesn’t necessarily reflect quality, but I don’t think we are in a bubble that will ever burst. It might plateau, but that’s best case scenario. Regardless, I thought the interview would give you some insight. If you aren’t a podcast listener, it’s a lot easier to listen on Spotify or Apple podcasts while doing other things rather than watching YouTube. It’s just easier to attach YouTube link to AH.

Click to expand...

I saw some Alberta prices that a mule deer whitetail combo was $25,000 of course this was in USD not Canadian Loonies.

Elk hunts are typically starting at $10,000 and that is for a basic hunt.

A lot of whitetails are $8000.

You do a package for 6-10 animals for $10,000 in Namibia, Botswana or South Africa, spend another $3000-4000 on air fair tips and clothes. If you want to bring them back you can, but you don't have to.

Africa is not cheap, but Western USA hunts, New Zealand and Argentina hunts are also not cheap.


New Zealand or Argentina 3 animal combo including a stag is $10,000-20,000
Africa 6-10 animal combo is $8,000-20,000 depending on where you go and what you shoot.

I don't think the people that are doing these hunts at $15,000-20,000 out the door every few years will go anymore if they get to be full elk price at the same money.

Texas exotics used to be kind of a rip off, and even with the BS pricing going on down there I still feel as they are a bargain. You can drive down, bring the meat back and shoot an elk sized or slightly smaller or bigger sized animal for $5500-10,000 like a bison, nilgai, gnu, eland, stag, or even an elk.

Muskox said:

I saw some Alberta prices that a mule deer whitetail combo was $25,000 of course this was in USD not Canadian Loonies.

Elk hunts are typically starting at $10,000 and that is for a basic hunt.

A lot of whitetails are $8000.

You do a package for 6-10 animals for $10,000 in Namibia, Botswana or South Africa, spend another $3000-4000 on air fair tips and clothes. If you want to bring them back you can, but you don't have to.

Africa is not cheap, but Western USA hunts, New Zealand and Argentina hunts are also not cheap.


New Zealand or Argentina 3 animal combo including a stag is $10,000-20,000
Africa 6-10 animal combo is $8,000-20,000 depending on where you go and what you shoot.

I don't think the people that are doing these hunts at $15,000-20,000 out the door every few years will go anymore if they get to be full elk price at the same money.

Texas exotics used to be kind of a rip off, and even with the BS pricing going on down there I still feel as they are a bargain. You can drive down, bring the meat back and shoot an elk sized or slightly smaller or bigger sized animal for $5500-10,000 like a bison, nilgai, gnu, eland, stag, or even an elk.

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If you book an African hunt you hunt all the days you book. If you hunt North America you go out with only 1 or 2 tags in your pocket. You shoot an elk on the first morning of first day of your elk hunt and your hunt is done. There is a significant difference in experience. Charging North American prices in South Africa is unrealistic, but saying the game is undervalued when hunted on a properly managed quota isn’t. I’m not as offended as some here at the idea of paying more to hunt large farms that are managed on tight quotas to give a better experience. By all accounts John X safaris is a very successful outfitter with a great reputation. There are a lot of other outfitters to choose offering different pricing and different business models. There is no shortage of competition.

375Fox said:

If you book an African hunt you hunt all the days you book. If you hunt North America you go out with only 1 or 2 tags in your pocket. You shoot an elk on the first morning of first day of your elk hunt and your hunt is done. There is a significant difference in experience. Charging North American prices in South Africa is unrealistic, but saying the game is undervalued when hunted on a properly managed quota isn’t. I’m not as offended as some here at the idea of paying more to hunt large farms that are managed on tight quotas to give a better experience. By all accounts John X safaris is a very successful outfitter with a great reputation. There are a lot of other outfitters to choose offering different pricing and different business models. There is no shortage of competition.

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You are on to it.

An absolute BS aspect that primarily exist in North America is the concept of the price is the same if you kill something or not.

Get crazy lucky and shoot a Boone and Crocket 180 inch whitetail or 360 bull elk your hunt cost the same as the guy that gets nothing.

I have always hated this.

Here in Europe, Africa, New Zealand and South America that is not the case. Unless you book through an American agent that prices it that way.

Let me just pay a daily rate, and then if we are successful I pay the trophy fee. I don't even mind if the trophy fee is held in escrow and returned to me a few weeks after the hunt is over. Not ideal.

What I like better is the situation with the forest service here in Europe where you kill an animal and then you get a bill you have to pay directly to the forest service.

Try booking a sheep hunt... $30,000 minimum and going up to $100,000. Canadian moose hunting for 7 days = $15,000... when you can do a two week African hunt for ten animals for $10k plus expenses. The decision is a no brainer.
As far as John-X is concerned, I love their videos, but when I requested a quote, I quickly eliminated them as an option. It would be great to hunt with them, but you can get a quality hunt for half the price. As far as getting the kudu pricing to equal elk pricing, good luck selling a hunt. The bulk of their clients are North American, and some European... the costs for those clients are not just the trophy fee and daily rate... those numbers are doubled for the client in terms of travel, fees and trophy care and shipping. If you get the trophy pricing too high, the client demand will drop off precipitously.
That is really what they can't afford... losing interest.

Muskox said:

What I like better is the situation with the forest service here in Europe where you kill an animal and then you get a bill you have to pay directly to the forest service.

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The last thing I want if for the government to be in full control... let supply and demand reign.

Muskox said:

You are on to it.

An absolute BS aspect that primarily exist in North America is the concept of the price is the same if you kill something or not.

Get crazy lucky and shoot a Boone and Crocket 180 inch whitetail or 360 bull elk your hunt cost the same as the guy that gets nothing.

I have always hated this.

Here in Europe, Africa, New Zealand and South America that is not the case. Unless you book through an American agent that prices it that way.

Let me just pay a daily rate, and then if we are successful I pay the trophy fee. I don't even mind if the trophy fee is held in escrow and returned to me a few weeks after the hunt is over. Not ideal.

What I like better is the situation with the forest service here in Europe where you kill an animal and then you get a bill you have to pay directly to the forest service.

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Funny how perspectives are different based on where you’re from. This is exactly what I like about American hunting. To me what I’m paying for is the opportunity to hunt. Not the animal. The trophy fee model feels like shopping to me. I do it but have never liked it.

hoytcanon said:

Try booking a sheep hunt... $30,000 minimum and going up to $100,000. Canadian moose hunting for 7 days = $15,000... when you can do a two week African hunt for ten animals for $10k plus expenses. The decision is a no brainer.
As far as John-X is concerned, I love their videos, but when I requested a quote, I quickly eliminated them as an option. It would be great to hunt with them, but you can get a quality hunt for half the price. As far as getting the kudu pricing to equal elk pricing, good luck selling a hunt. The bulk of their clients are North American, and some European... the costs for those clients are not just the trophy fee and daily rate... those numbers are doubled for the client in terms of travel, fees and trophy care and shipping. If you get the trophy pricing too high, the client demand will drop off precipitously.
That is really what they can't afford... losing interest.

Click to expand...

You’re kind of comparing apples to oranges. A sheep or moose hunt in Canada is more like a wild Africa hunt which is more expensive. The two week 10 animal hunt for $10k is going to be in South Africa or Namibia on a ranch. More like comparing to a Texas high fence hunt.

Some of the cost on that sheep or misse hunt is due to the scarcity of the game and the cost of running a camp in wild country. Bush planes to get supplies etc.

I’m not saying prices in the US are good, they aren’t it has gotten way too expensive but it is important to really look at what you’re paying for when comparing across species and countries.

For me I’ll always be willing to pay more for wilderness. I’d rather shoot fewer animals but work harder for them and have the experience I’m looking for. I also want there to at least be a chance of coming home empty handed.

Russ16 said:

Funny how perspectives are different based on where you’re from. This is exactly what I like about American hunting. To me what I’m paying for is the opportunity to hunt. Not the animal. The trophy fee model feels like shopping to me. I do it but have never liked it.

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I’m sure any outfitter would gladly agree to a non-refundable trophy fee plus day rate in advance to mimic a North American hunt. I like trophy fees. I’ve never thought of it as shopping. I’ve thought it puts some accountability on the outfitter. It hurts paying full price on an unsuccessful bear or sheep hunt.

Russ16 said:

You’re kind of comparing apples to oranges. A sheep or moose hunt in Canada is more like a wild Africa hunt which is more expensive. The two week 10 animal hunt for $10k is going to be in South Africa or Namibia on a ranch. More like comparing to a Texas high fence hunt.

Some of the cost on that sheep or misse hunt is due to the scarcity of the game and the cost of running a camp in wild country. Bush planes to get supplies etc.

I’m not saying prices in the US are good, they aren’t it has gotten way too expensive but it is important to really look at what you’re paying for when comparing across species and countries.

For me I’ll always be willing to pay more for wilderness. I’d rather shoot fewer animals but work harder for them and have the experience I’m looking for. I also want there to at least be a chance of coming home empty handed.

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Wrong, you can do a Namibian free range hunt for that price... not farm, not high fence... a couple million acres to roam.
Also, the comparison is a numbers game, ask the average blue collar worker if he would rather spend $50K for a Dall sheep or $10K for ten African plains game... almost zero are going for the Dall. As far as comparing a Single Kudu, to a Single elk hunt... who is going to Africa if the price is equal??? So it is always apples to oranges, nobody is booking an African hunt for ONE Kudu, they are comparing the ONE Elk to half a dozen Adrican PG.

I have been guiding wilderness Canadian hunts off and on since I was 17 years old, 44 years now... I know the wilderness draw, and there is wilderness in Africa too... at a much lower cost to a traveling hunter.
Bottom line is, people will pay for the experience that captures their imagination and excites them... AND is inline with their reasonable budget... for many, those criteria direct them to Africa.

hoytcanon said:

Wrong, you can do a Namibian free range hunt for that price... not farm, not high fence... a couple million acres to roam.
Also, the comparison is a numbers game, ask the average blue collar worker if he would rather spend $50K for a Dall sheep or $10K for ten African plains game... almost zero are going for the Dall. As far as comparing a Single Kudu, to a Single elk hunt... who is going to Africa if the price is equal??? So it is always apples to oranges, nobody is booking an African hunt for ONE Kudu, they are comparing the ONE Elk to half a dozen Adrican PG.

I have been guiding wilderness Canadian hunts off and on since I was 17 years old, 44 years now... I know the wilderness draw, and there is wilderness in Africa too... at a much lower cost to a traveling hunter.
Bottom line is, people will pay for the experience that captures their imagination and excites them... AND is inline with their reasonable budget... for many, those criteria direct them to Africa.

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I know of nowhere in Namibia you could hunt 2 weeks 10 animals under $10k. Maybe a cull hunt with several trophies on low fence farms, but not 10 trophy animals in wild areas north of the veterinary fence.

You should probably listen to the podcast before you overreact too badly to someone’s interpretation of it. There’s plenty of competition still. Everyone looks for something different.

375Fox said:

I know of nowhere in Namibia you could hunt 2 weeks 10 animals under $10k. Maybe a cull hunt with several trophies on low fence farms, but not 10 trophy animals in wild areas north of the veterinary fence.

You should probably listen to the podcast before you overreact too badly to someone’s interpretation of it. There’s plenty of competition still. Everyone looks for something different.

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It can be done with several safari operators, do the research. I have no beef with John-X or their pricing... from everything I have seen they offer a great experience... it is just simply out of the budget for some people (myself included) If money is no object, why are we having this discussion?