Politics

Like a giant air burst claymore?

Doubleplay said:

I don't know Peter Singer and really don't care what he said.
I also believe evil people exists in everywhere, left, right, religious, atheist, etc...
However anybody who believes in death penalty and pro-life is a hypocrite in my book.
I might be against abortion but telling others what to do regardless of their medical condition or interfering with doctors in the name of religion should not happen in a country where church and state supposedly separated.
I have two grand daughters and don't want them to suffer because religious bigots made it impossible for them get proper medical care.
I also believe %70 of the public thinks alike according to polls and GOP unfortunately will pay the price.

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Making the comparison of a fetus that has done nothing but be conceived and a cold blooded killer that has truly committed evil on another human being may be one of the strangest things I’ve seen on this thread, and I do agree with a lot of what you have said.

Doubleplay said:

I have the utmost respect to other view points including yours and like you said whatever floats your boat.
However are you trying to equate abortion based on health/genetic condition or danger to mother's health to deliberately killing disabled children or elderly parents?
Do you believe in medical decisions?
What's the difference between a doctor telling you as a man or to a woman that a certain procedure needed because there's a high risk to your life?
You call it a gateway, some woman might call it life or death.
On a side note do you believe in capital punishment? because if you do this conversation is meaningless...

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I’m a huge, huge fan of capital punishment. Nothing would delight me more than to have the sickest, most evil elements of society permenantly removed from the penal system in a cost effective manner.

The only reason I think capital punishment should be outlawed is because like everything else in government, the process sucks. We’ve had numerous people on death row that were later found innocent from DNA evidence, from testimony recanted by corrupt cops, by the revelation of suppressed exculpatory evidence, by strong armed confessions from people below retarded IQs less than 70, etc. I’m unwilling to support State execution of 999 guilty men if we accidentally kill 1 innocent one in the process.

When anyone can assure me we won’t kill an innocent man, I’d be a strong endorser of capital punishment. Illinois alone in the 1990s or early 2000s ended up doing a study that they had killed, and were about to kill a number of innocent people. Not acceptable, but typical of a failed justice system.

A conservative errs on the side of liberty. We can’t un-kill an innocent person.

rookhawk said:

I'm going to say something horrible here, but it's where my mentality is at.

You've all heard me say I believe we are living in the decline of rome era. My mission in life is to elect leaders to stall and delay what I believe is an inevitable collapse in the next 1-2 generations. You can judge me a pessimist in light of that view, but it's my view.

So what does this have to do with abortion? I've held staunch pro-life views my entire life, defensible and informed by an agnostic and cultural perspective, not reliant on any personal religious beliefs. I've changed my views for a fairly horrible reason in recent years. The people that are hedonists that want to abort their progeny to enjoy decadence and lack of duty are the very same people that will be leading us to civil unrest and civil collapse. I no longer hold a pro-life national policy position because I've come to conclude those aborted and their parents are the very people that will be shooting at my family in the next 1-2 generations. If they'd like to commit murder to thin their own numbers, it may delay the collapse of what was a once great Republic.

On a personal level, I still encourage the redeemable to rethink their choice to abort and have/would provide material support to help them raise a kid or surrender a child to adoption.

On the macro level? I'm done fighting, to my family's detriment, to discourage dangerous groups from destroying themselves before they raise the army of savages inside the nation. (And I don't mean any race or class, I mean a broad generational ideology of hedonists and radicals)

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I am pretty much 100% on that same page. I look at what are the most likely demographics of those getting abortions and think "well, if it makes them happy and serves our long-term interests, then so be it". It's always seemed to me to be high irony that Democrats and Republicans take the positions that they do on abortion, since they run counter to each of their respective interests. And being raised in a very staunch Christian home and doing far more scriptural study than the average church-goer, I can say without any ambiguity that there is an entire Old Testament that obliterates the notion that God values the lives of all children as equally sacred. That argument simply doesn't even get off the ground.

But let's not get sidetracked, the Alabama Supreme Court decision really isn't about abortion; it's technically about what constitutes human life. Having dealt with infertility and the IVF process personally in order to get our second child, I am personally incensed at this decision. The fact that they made an edge-case decision without seemingly considering the widespread ramifications it would have is just incredulous. One can't help but wonder what qualifies them to carry the title of judge in the first place. In my case, the fertility clinic we worked with was able to fertilize four of my wife's eggs; and with our agreement, implanted the two most promising ones (resulting in one daughter, as we wished for). The other two fertilized embryos were significantly less viable than the two that were implanted, and they were discarded. Should my wife and I have been mandated by the government to implant them in her womb regardless of their condition, or alternatively be forced to keep them on ice forever? That's simply insane.

I get that many religious people believe that life begins at conception; however, they have an incomplete definition of conception. If you're talking about a fertilized embryo in a petri dish or in a test tube at a fertility clinic, there is no leaving it as-is and having it turn into a human being. Conception is not just fertilization, but also implantation (into the uterine wall); without which, there simply is no development of life. It's as if the Alabama Supreme Court didn't even bother to think about this. Yes, it's a tragedy that the fertilized embryo of the would-be parents was destroyed; and they rightfully should be compensated for their emotional distress, but there had to have been a much better way to do it than impose this huge injury on health care providers and other would-be parents who are already suffering enough as it is.

Interesting chart:

Tanks said:

The problem I have with your viewpoint is the fact that it is based on your religious beliefs, and you wish to force it down the throats of everyone else whether they agree with you or not even if from a different religious faith or not at all.

I am more of a libertarian on this issue. I think the first trimester is a good compromise between the two camps (other than pure medical reasons).

It is ironic that the GOP that is supposed to stand for less government interference in people's lives is so focused on people's personal medical decisions. Then again what else could you expect from people that still believe Earth was created about 6,000 - 10,000 years ago.

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Your view point is possibly based on an anti religious viewpoint, nothing wrong with that. Many (myself included) believe that abortion is the taking of a human life. You seem have negative viewpoint of anything related to faith in god. What is right and true does not change regardless of politics.

Doubleplay said:

I don't know Peter Singer and really don't care what he said.
I also believe evil people exists in everywhere, left, right, religious, atheist, etc...
However anybody who believes in death penalty and pro-life is a hypocrite in my book.
I might be against abortion but telling others what to do regardless of their medical condition or interfering with doctors in the name of religion should not happen in a country where church and state supposedly separated.
I have two grand daughters and don't want them to suffer because religious bigots made it impossible for them get proper medical care.
I also believe %70 of the public thinks alike according to polls and GOP unfortunately will pay the price.

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You can't see the difference between innocent and evil? You may be blind. What would you suggest we do with murderers? Lock them up for Life where they can't hurt anyone? Prison staff and offenders that have not committed murder are people. People.that advocate for infanticide but struggle to save the life of a murderer are the actual hypocrites. What if someone murdered one of your grand daughters? Our lack of willingness to deal with evil and the increasing crime rate that has resulted from it makes that a more likely possibility. An unwanted pregnancy is nothing compared to the reality of not dealing with criminals in an effective manner.

BTW: Most people that oppose abortion accept that exceptions must be made to save the life of the mother and other situations that may dictate a medical need. I suspect you knew that.

rookhawk said:

I’m a huge, huge fan of capital punishment. Nothing would delight me more than to have the sickest, most evil elements of society permenantly removed from the penal system in a cost effective manner.

The only reason I think capital punishment should be outlawed is because like everything else in government, the process sucks. We’ve had numerous people on death row that were later found innocent from DNA evidence, from testimony recanted by corrupt cops, by the revelation of suppressed exculpatory evidence, by strong armed confessions from people below retarded IQs less than 70, etc. I’m unwilling to support State execution of 999 guilty men if we accidentally kill 1 innocent one in the process.

When anyone can assure me we won’t kill an innocent man, I’d be a strong endorser of capital punishment. Illinois alone in the 1990s or early 2000s ended up doing a study that they had killed, and were about to kill a number of innocent people. Not acceptable, but typical of a failed justice system.

A conservative errs on the side of liberty. We can’t un-kill an innocent person.

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But we also can't un-kill the next victim of the murderer. The killer that murdered thee correctional officer was already in prison. Life without parole. Prison does not make a killer led violent. Her name was Jayme Bindl, and she was a single mother with two young children. Was her life worth less than the life of her killer? Not everyone that kills needs the death penalty but some do. Some can be redeemed and others can't it should be up to the legal system and not "blue" state politicians.

Doubleplay said:

I don't know Peter Singer and really don't care what he said.
I also believe evil people exists in everywhere, left, right, religious, atheist, etc...
However anybody who believes in death penalty and pro-life is a hypocrite in my book.
I might be against abortion but telling others what to do regardless of their medical condition or interfering with doctors in the name of religion should not happen in a country where church and state supposedly separated.
I have two grand daughters and don't want them to suffer because religious bigots made it impossible for them get proper medical care.
I also believe %70 of the public thinks alike according to polls and GOP unfortunately will pay the price.

Click to expand...

Share Message - 'I'm sad for everyone who's been killed': How two years of war in Ukraine changed Russia

spike.t said:

Share Message - 'I'm sad for everyone who's been killed': How two years of war in Ukraine changed Russia

Rosenberg: How two years of war in Ukraine changed Russia

The BBC's Russia Editor reports on a catalogue of drama, bloodshed and tragedy since the war began.

www.bbc.co.uk

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For some reason couldn't add to my message above....but interesting insight on putin and how he has changed ,by someone who dealt closely with him from the beginning..

Tanks said:

I know. I was talking in plural "you" not you personally.

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The plural you includes Tundra Tiger and likes of me. He's too much of a gentleman to tell you to sit on it and swivel. I on the other hand am not.

Jeff505 said:

Your view point is possibly based on an anti religious viewpoint, nothing wrong with that. ...

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Not anti-religious per se. I just don't think religious views of some should trump people's rights and freedom. Especially, seeing that we are such a diverse county of many religious viewpoints. Heck, as a result of AL court decision IVF treatments in AL have basically stopped. Religion trumped science in this instance.

I personally don't believe in abortion but would not push my beliefs on someone else.

In regard to religion, some of the biggest wars in early European history started due to conflicts between Protestants and Catholics. Religious views and the desire to impose them onto others gave rise to Taliban and Isis.

People have perverted religion to their own ends all throughout history, so excuse me for being skeptical when people try to shape laws and public policy according to their own religious beliefs.

Again, don't get me wrong I am not anti-religion. I just believe each person should live according to their own moral code and not force their personal beliefs onto others.

Tanks said:

Not anti-religious per se. I just don't think religious views of some should trump people's rights and freedom. Especially, seeing that we are such a diverse county of many religious viewpoints. Heck, as a result of AL court decision IVF treatments in AL have basically stopped. Religion trumped science in this instance.

I personally don't believe in abortion but would not push my beliefs on someone else.

In regard to religion, some of the biggest wars in early European history started due to conflicts between Protestants and Catholics. Religious views and the desire to impose them onto others gave rise to Taliban and Isis.

People have perverted religion to their own ends all throughout history, so excuse me for being skeptical when people try to shape laws and public policy according to their own religious beliefs.

Again, don't get me wrong I am not anti-religion. I just believe each person should live according to their own moral code and not force their personal beliefs onto others.

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Your argument breaks down when your moral code negatively impacts someone else’s moral code. This is way bigger than abortion. How about theft? China has no moral issue with industrial theft. Shall we allow Chinese immigrants to engage in this practice? Our country was founded on Judeo Christian values. Our system of government only works with that as a foundation. Many of the problems we are experiencing today spring directly from folks taking your position.

Oh, and separation of church and state does not mean that Christian values and beliefs do not influence government. Any cursory investigation will prove this completely false. What it speaks to is the prevention of the state from involving itself in the church. Our founding fathers had just been in this dust up with England where the crown had weaponized the church against them. The statement is a prohibition on the US government from doing just that.

rookhawk said:

Interesting chart:

View attachment 588736

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Interesting indeed! Source?

WAB said:

Your argument breaks down when your moral code negatively impacts someone else’s moral code. ...

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Now, I am not advocating for anarchy where everyone does whatever they want without consequences or consideration for others. Murder, theft etc. has been vilified and shunned throughout history due to its impact on people living together as a community and punished as such.

If you take religion out of it, abortion or destroying frozen embryos impacts only people directly involved.

Another example is getting drunk. It is fine when one does it in the privacy of their home or at a bar etc.. It becomes illegal when one tries to drive or cause a disturbance while being drunk as at that point one can negatively impact others.

Tanks said:

Heck, as a result of AL court decision IVF treatments in AL have basically stopped.

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For those of you who are not always familiar with how the U. S. system works this statement is a good example. A judicial court from the state of Alabama, depending on their system these judges are either elected by the people of Alabama or are appointed by the governor of Alabama who was elected by the people of Alabama. Thus this decision only applies in the State of Alabama. It is a decision that represents the people of Alabama. This decision represents the concept of States Rights.

Now does this decision represent the views of all the citizens of the State of Alabama. No, but it represents a large majority. So what happens to the people that disagree. First, they can start talking to their neighbors and friends about why this was an incorrect decision in order to get it changed. That will take a great deal of time. Meanwhile, those who wish to have IVF treatment may travel to another state and have the treatment. Then there is the option of moving to another state that supports IVF treatment. If you are planning to move to Alabama, this may influence your decision.

IVF has brought the blessing of children to many families that would not be able to have children. I have 3 nephews and a niece because of it. However, there is the question of what do you do with the embryos that are not used. This is a question that I brought up every year in my biology classes. The question usually brought forth very silent thoughtful looks from 15 year old kids. I don’t have a good solution.

@Tanks thank your for emphasizing that it was an Alabama decision.

Tanks said:

Now, I am not advocating for anarchy where everyone does whatever they want without consequences or consideration for others. Murder, theft etc. has been vilified and shunned throughout history due to its impact on people living together as a community and punished as such.

If you take religion out of it, abortion or destroying frozen embryos impacts only people directly involved.

Another example is getting drunk. It is fine when one does it in the privacy of their home or at a bar etc.. It becomes illegal when one tries to drive or cause a disturbance while being drunk as at that point one can negatively impact others.

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So who draws the line and on what basis is the line drawn? The line was drawn in this country by our founding fathers. You can like it or dislike it, but you can’t change it, or the fact that the underlying principles are Christian morals.

Americans are nothing but tax paying fodder for the Democrat grinder.

Judge Engoron, is judicial scum. Many more of his ilk sit on benches across this country.
Political hitmen for the radical left.

New York is nothing but a wart on the ass of this country.