Telling the difference between types/makes of bolt actions

[Nevada Mike]

Really?

"I really hope I'm not the only one here that can't tell the difference between a mauser and CZ action or any other bolt action..."

 

[mark-hunter]

Really?

Hmmm... you may have a point!
In that case I went into too much details.

Foolish me, I though that obvious difference in CRF and PF is common knowledge on this forum!

 

[Zambezi]

I understand the concepts of PF and CRF but how does one tell the difference just by looking at a picture?

Like I mentioned in my original post most seem to be able to just look at a picture and tell that it is Pre-64 or a Mod 70... or something completely different. What visual ques make this possible?

 

[mark-hunter]

I understand the concepts of PF and CRF but how does one tell the difference just by looking at a picture?

in 99% of cases: Mauser long extractor claw represents controlled round feed. Its very visible. All others should be PF ie - they do not have long extractor claw.
(but, note: there are minor differences from factory to factory in CRF design, but long claw must be.)

1% on non typical CRF cases are; older version of steyr rifle, and "said to be" sako 85.
For Sako 85, factory claims it is CRF. Open for debate.

Arguably, in order to make experiment, you take out the bolt, and try to fit dummy round, or casing in the bolt, where extractor is supposed to have solid grip on casing.
if you can keep bolt in horizontal position, holding the dummy round, then most probably it is CRF. Old steyr and sako 85 can do that, as well as all mauser 98 clones.

 

[Zambezi]

But if someone posts a pic of two or three rifles how does one tell what they are just by looking at them? Is it even possible? How can you look at a pic and say "oooo lovely pre-64' or Mod70...?

 

[mark-hunter]

For right handed rifle, photo must be from right side, then you will be able to see long extractor claw for pre-64. (or lack thereof for post 64)

All other things come from experience: maybe different sights, checkering, stock, etc.

below from internet, photos:
pre 64 and post 64:

 

[mark-hunter]

Is it even possible? How can you look at a pic and say "oooo lovely pre-64' or Mod70...?

I tried above to explain the difference.
But, when the question is "how", the answer is knowledge and experience!

Many people on this forum are firearms enthusiasts, aficionados, experts, and they are studying and using firearms their entire life. (and many of them are in retirement years, or close to it)
So, dont think that this knowledge came overnight by accident.

If you will take my advice:
Start buying books on firearms. (and less internet)
All modern sporting firearms came from military design.
So, my advice to you is buy the book(s) on military rifles historical development.
And then, expand the library to modern hunting and sporting rifles.

When I was a kid, there was not many books around on firearms.

But, when I was about 9 years old, I managed to get the book "World war II - Small arms" by John Weeks, which I have read innumerable times. to the point of collapsed hard cover.
I vividly remember that book, and can still quote few sentences from it, after 40 years.

My grandpa had some hunting rifles, and one ww2 trophy pistol. One Rifle was mauser sporter clone, and about the pistol and that rifle I have read everything in that book.
Then, when I managed to get to those guns when grandpa was willing to show me, I tried to understand what the book was describing in and functions of that gun.
This is how, I started my firearm education. 40 years later, I am still studying the books read about historical guns, and modern ones, and use guns in hunting, and target shooting. Membership in three shooting clubs helps, because I can see or on occasion try various models

(I am not saying I am the expert, but I can at least follow what they are saying when the experts are talking)

So, start reading materials written by authorities on the subject. History and development and modern use. Read about the guns accessible at your place, and try to find their flaws, how they funckiton, and good things. Amazon and other sources are rich with good titles.

 

[baxterb]

But if someone posts a pic of two or three rifles how does one tell what they are just by looking at them? Is it even possible? How can you look at a pic and say "oooo lovely pre-64' or Mod70...?

Model 70's are pretty easy - the pre-64's owner will generally tell you it is a pre-64 ;-) -

pre-64's will often have a hole in the bolt knob, early ones will have a left-swing safety, all (to my knowledge) will have a cutout on the top of the left side of the action to accommodate the extra 'lug' on the bolt that rides the rails, there are cloverleaf and transition tangs,

post-64s will be push feed, so no long extractor

Classic are techncially post-64s, but they returned to the long extrator. Look for a knurled ring around the bolt handle, and no cut out on the left side of the action (Note - in neither case above am I talking about a cutout in the wall of the action like on Mausers.)

honestly, you just gotta start googling and lookign at images. The BRNOs can be confusing, but there are also tell-tale features that distinguish one from another. Once you get into custom guns, they can get even more confusing, or commercial mausers that had a solid left wall, etc etc.

Most car guys can tell you what kind of car is coming up behind them by the grille and headlights...same thing...

 

[BourbonTrail]

Winchester Mod 70 is recognizable by the wing safety that swings CCW.

 

[Zambezi]

Yes there is no short-cut to knowledge. My expertise is in environmental protection (conservation management) and guiding experience. Rifles were / are just a tool I carried. I know how to use them, handle them and take care of them but I suppose I never took the time to study them,

My hunting experience began at about 5 years old with a BSA No.1 pellet gun with a sawn off butt so that it would fit me, Rifles come and go and it's always just been a tool of the trade for the last 48 years or so since that old BSA.

Knowing the various parts is probably a good place to start, A good idea to start reading more on the subject. Thanks to the to the post above I now can at least tell the difference between a pre and post 64,

 

[Zambezi]

Model 70's are pretty easy - the pre-64's owner will generally tell you it is a pre-64 ;-) -

pre-64's will often have a hole in the bolt knob, early ones will have a left-swing safety, all (to my knowledge) will have a cutout on the top of the left side of the action to accommodate the extra 'lug' on the bolt that rides the rails, there are cloverleaf and transition tangs,

post-64s will be push feed, so no long extractor

Classic are techncially post-64s, but they returned to the long extrator. Look for a knurled ring around the bolt handle, and no cut out on the left side of the action (Note - in neither case above am I talking about a cutout in the wall of the action like on Mausers.)

honestly, you just gotta start googling and lookign at images. The BRNOs can be confusing, but there are also tell-tale features that distinguish one from another. Once you get into custom guns, they can get even more confusing, or commercial mausers that had a solid left wall, etc etc.

Most car guys can tell you what kind of car is coming up behind them by the grille and headlights...same thing...

This type of info is helpful but would be more helpful if I could visualise what each part mentioned was... It is time to do some research. I work best visually so will start there. I'm hoping to take a year long sabbatical very soon so this will be my task in that year.

Thanks to all that have replied.

 

[mark-hunter]

If you have time and resources, try joining a gun club. Plus your own research, and sabbatical can be well spent!

 

[baxterb]

This type of info is helpful but would be more helpful if I could visualise what each part mentioned was... It is time to do some research. I work best visually so will start there. I'm hoping to take a year long sabbatical very soon so this will be my task in that year.

Thanks to all that have replied.

this is a good site for pre-64 stuff.

Making sense of the pre-64 model 70 receiver

Nearly every day my inbox contains inquiries from people looking for the right model 70 receiver on which to build their next rifle. Most people are aware of the 3 generations of pre-64 model 70 receiver, as shown in the photo below; in Winchester parlance, these are the "Type-I", "Type-II and...

pre64win.com

 

[MS 9x56]

But if someone posts a pic of two or three rifles how does one tell what they are just by looking at them? Is it even possible? How can you look at a pic and say "oooo lovely pr

I understand the concepts of PF and CRF but how does one tell the difference just by looking at a picture?

Like I mentioned in my original post most seem to be able to just look at a picture and tell that it is Pre-64 or a Mod 70... or something completely different. What visual ques make this possible?

That comes from frequenting many gun shops and fondling many, many, many different rifles.

 

[Wyatt Smith]

When you see enough of them you just know the differences. Kind of like how I can look at nearly any ford truck made after 1980 and tell you what years it could have been made.
Don’t feel bad for not knowing, it will come.

 

[One Day...]

This can get as detailed as one wants it to be, and knowing the myriad variations is indeed the result of life-long learning (there are so many variations!) but to give you a few generic answers, Zambezi:

Mauser system action

Generally a "Mauser system" action is recognizable by the presence of the large external "claw extractor" invented by Paul Mauser.

The reason I say "Mauser system" instead of just Mauser, is because the Mauser system is the most copied of all firearms designs. Mauser system rifles have been made by Mauser, Heym, and many others in Germany; Browning in Belgium; Winchester, Springfield, Ruger, Dakota and many others in America; Arisaka in Japan; Zastava in Yugoslavia (now Serbia); Santa Barbara in Spain; countless custom action machinists, etc. etc. etc. and has been used by virtually all prestigious gun makers such as Holland & Holland, Rigby, Dumoulin, Francotte, Griffin & Howe etc. etc. etc.

CZ, Brno and ZKK rifles

They are the same, coming from the same factory in Czechoslovakia. CZ stands for Česká Zbrojovka which means Czech Armory. The plant is located in Brno in the Czech Republic. The rifles were marketed under the Brno ZKK (601 standard length, 602 magnum length) moniker during the communist era and have been rebranded CZ 550 after the fall of communism. There are minor differences between ZKK and CZ rifles but for all practical purposes they are the same.

The easy and instantaneous way to recognize them is that they have a grooved "double square bridge" i.e. both front and rear rings of the action have a flat top grooved for integral scope mounts.

Winchester safety

While Paul Mauser invented the bolt-mounted 3 positions safety (the famous Mauser "flag" safety), this safety was improved on by Winchester who adapted it with a lateral wing instead of a vertical "flag" so that it could work with low mounted scopes.

Most Mauser system rifles now have a Winchester-type 3 positions safety, and many older rifles were retrofitted with one.

Magnum vs. standard actions, small ring actions etc.

It is purely a question of length and size. Standard actions are sized for the .30-06 and similar cartridges, original "magnum" actions were sized for the .416 Rigby. Many .375 length rifles were made with either reworked standard length actions with lengthened magazine well, or with magnum actions.

Mauser at one time made "kurtz" (short) actions for shorter cartridges, and some of these actions had a smaller diameter front ring (where the barrel is screwed).

In summary...

A lot of all the above may be mixed together. For example, this CZ 550 action (grooved flat top front and rear rings) is a magnum length (.416 Rigby length) Mauser system action (external claw extractor) that has been retrofitted with a Winchester type safety (lateral wing).