Rechambering Model 70 Safari Express in .458 Win Mag to .458 Lott

[michael458]

I have noticed quite a few newer Winchester 70 WSM rifles for sale on Gunbroker. How do you feel about the current FN actions being produced?

I know that SSK has built quite a few rifles on the new M70s, I have not heard of any issues or problems with any of them. I had a good friend build a 9.3 B&M not too long ago on one of the new guns and he has not had any problems at all.

I have a couple of the Maple stocked guns they did a couple of years ago in 308 Winchester, a Super Grade and a Featherweight, both are extremely good rifles and I love them. Of course I had to whack some of that long 22-24 inch barrels down to proper length of 18 inches..........Other than that...............

 

[hammz]

I have noticed quite a few newer Winchester 70 WSM rifles for sale on Gunbroker. How do you feel about the current FN actions being produced?

The current actions are great. I dare say the current actions are the best ones ever built by Winchester. FN/Browning taking them over was probably one of the best things that could have happened. They're hammer forged and extremely durable. They're also very smooth.

The guns are assembled in Portugal. I know the barrels are made in FN's U.S. factory. Not sure if the action is made by the FN U.S. factory or over in the European factory. I think the barrels now are button rifled as Winchester mentions that on their website. Although the Extreme Weather SS says this about that gun's barrel, "The Extreme Weather SS rifle's free-floating fluted stainless steel barrel is made in the same factory as those found on U.S. military rifles and machine guns". Usually when FN mentions "machine gun steel" it usually means 4150 steel and cold hammer forged.

I've seen some people refer to the barrels as being cold hammer forged still when doing reviews on the newer ones, so ultimately I am not sure.

 

[TOBY458]

I know that SSK has built quite a few rifles on the new M70s, I have not heard of any issues or problems with any of them. I had a good friend build a 9.3 B&M not too long ago on one of the new guns and he has not had any problems at all.

I have a couple of the Maple stocked guns they did a couple of years ago in 308 Winchester, a Super Grade and a Featherweight, both are extremely good rifles and I love them. Of course I had to whack some of that long 22-24 inch barrels down to proper length of 18 inches..........Other than that...............

Good to hear. I've had and still have a few of the FN guns, and have had nothing but good luck with them. I was mainly curious of what you thought of the new style trigger. The guns I have/had that were made in Newport were definitely not machined and fit up as well as the newer guns, that's for sure. But even those have always functioned and shot well. Maybe it's time for me to get serious about a 458 B&M....

 

[TOBY458]

The current actions are great. I dare say the current actions are the best ones ever built by Winchester. FN/Browning taking them over was probably one of the best things that could have happened. They're hammer forged and extremely durable. They're also very smooth.

The guns are assembled in Portugal. I know the barrels are made in FN's U.S. factory. Not sure if the action is made by the FN U.S. factory or over in the European factory. I think the barrels now are button rifled as Winchester mentions that on their website. Although the Extreme Weather SS says this about that gun's barrel, "The Extreme Weather SS rifle's free-floating fluted stainless steel barrel is made in the same factory as those found on U.S. military rifles and machine guns". Usually when FN mentions "machine gun steel" it usually means 4150 steel and cold hammer forged.

I've seen some people refer to the barrels as being cold hammer forged still when doing reviews on the newer ones, so ultimately I am not sure.

My FN Portugal model 70 in 416 RM is as accurate as a varmint rifle, so I believe they are definitely put together well. The 458 I have is also an FN gun, but it was one of the last guns entirely built in the USA. It seems to be very well built, although I've yet to shoot it.

 

[hammz]

My FN Portugal model 70 in 416 RM is as accurate as a varmint rifle, so I believe they are definitely put together well. The 458 I have is also an FN gun, but it was one of the last guns entirely built in the USA. It seems to be very well built, although I've yet to shoot it.

I'd hold on to that made in the USA FN. Those seem to be the most desirable. That one definitely has a cold hammer forged barrel as I know all the FN USA guns did. I've owned both FN USA and FN Portugal guns, though, and feel they're about the same in quality.

I'd like to see Winchester add more calibers to the Safari Express line like the 404 and 500 Jeffery. With CZ out of the picture Winchester pretty much has a monopoly on the "budget" safari rifle market.

 

[TOBY458]

I'd hold on to that made in the USA FN. Those seem to be the most desirable. That one definitely has a cold hammer forged barrel as I know all the FN USA guns did. I've owned both FN USA and FN Portugal guns, though, and feel they're about the same in quality.

I'd like to see Winchester add more calibers to the Safari Express line like the 404 and 500 Jeffery. With CZ out of the picture Winchester pretty much has a monopoly on the "budget" safari rifle market.

Yes. And they need to make a guide gun as well. Stainless with 21" barrel or similar in 375, 416 and 458.

 

[hammz]

Yes. And they need to make a guide gun as well. Stainless with 21" barrel or similar in 375, 416 and 458.

A stainless guide gun would be awesome. I recently saw one of those Model 70 Alaskan stainless rifles on Gunbroker in 375 H&H with a 25" barrel. I think it was unfired but they were asking over $3,000 for it if I recall.

Ruger has their M77 guide guns which are neat, but I haven't seen one for sale in ages. I'd get one of those if they chambered it in a regular safari cartridge and not one of their proprietary ones.

 

[michael458]

Good to hear. I've had and still have a few of the FN guns, and have had nothing but good luck with them. I was mainly curious of what you thought of the new style trigger. The guns I have/had that were made in Newport were definitely not machined and fit up as well as the newer guns, that's for sure. But even those have always functioned and shot well. Maybe it's time for me to get serious about a 458 B&M....

I was dubious concerning the new trigger of course. The older M70 triggers were considered the best in the world, "They Say", whoever They happens to be at the time. I am no gunsmith by any stretch, and most things like that are out of my area, I am a shooter/hunter. To date I have heard of zero issues, problems or anything such with the new triggers, and as stated I have a few minor calibers in new guns.....If it works, then its good.......

The New Haven machinery was getting old, and it was worn completely out from what I heard. When the plant closed down, it seemed Winchester used every part and piece they could get their hands on to put together the last rifles sent out, I think including floor sweepings....... I bought a lot of WSM guns at the end, and a few of them were horrible to say the least, some would not even work, bolts out of alignment, and all sorts of trash. Nothing that SSK could not fix or sort out, but some of the guns were terrible at the end requiring some work be done.

The FN plant is here in Columbia SC, new machinery, and they were even making some of the actions for New Haven's Custom Shop in the last couple of years it was open. I had a great relationship with the Custom Shop for 3-4 years before it closed down.

I have not kept up with what is being produced where or put together here or there...... So I have no input on that. I would not hesitate to use any of the new rifles to build on, I think they are good to go, and perhaps being machined on new equipment are far better than the end of the old M70s......

 

[michael458]

Just FYI............

This is the only 458 Winchester I have left in the stable, and love nor money could not buy it. Fact is, it was the first Winchester M70 I had ever owned. I bought it at a gun show in Florence SC back in the mid 90s for $600.00. It was a early 90s gun, control feed, and had that horrible POS stock that Winchester was putting on them at that time. It has a factory 22 inch barrel, which was very attractive to me, and predates the B&M rifles by 10 years or better. It handled great, I shot 3 lions with it in 2000 using 400 gr Swift A Frames at 2325 fps. I also shot a bunch of zebra, and other assorted critters as well with it. It's the rifle that began my fancy for .458 caliber, it just knocked everything to the dirt when using proper bullets........... The stock that is on it now was made by Accurate Innovations, which does ALL my stock work and is the only stocks you can put on some of the heavy hitters without busting............

As stated I was in very nicely with the Custom Shop in the late 90s and early 2000s, I was also in on the Big Five Series of guns the Custom Shop put out in those years too. I asked the Custom Shop to make a Floor Plate for this rifle for me, and they agreed, it matches the Lion on the Big Five Series guns. I felt it was appropriate for this rifle......

 

[WAB]

A stainless guide gun would be awesome. I recently saw one of those Model 70 Alaskan stainless rifles on Gunbroker in 375 H&H with a 25" barrel. I think it was unfired but they were asking over $3,000 for it if I recall.

Ruger has their M77 guide guns which are neat, but I haven't seen one for sale in ages. I'd get one of those if they chambered it in a regular safari cartridge and not one of their proprietary ones.

My M-70 .375 is a custom gun that started life as one of those stainless synthetic Alaskans. They are great rifles.

 

[WAB]

I agree with the comments on the quality of the new M-70 CRF rifles. I have four custom rifles built on these actions. They are all sub moa and utterly reliable. I could have built on pre-64’s just as easily. IMO, the new rifles are better.

 

[fourfive8]

From my own experience, the best Win70s were produced late New Haven era. Other's experiences may vary. I owned one of the "new generation" FN Win 70s for awhile and it was no more accurate or well built than the late New Havens. It's bore/barrel was not superior if even equal to the older product, IMO. Matter of fact it even had a slight hitch in the bolt cycling. I bought it brand new and it had what felt like a lug depression from the get go. The type of thing that happens with some overpressure event(s) in bolt guns where the rear of the bolt lugs actually depress into the action seats creating small divots that can be felt when cycling the bolt.

Of course any box trigger is susceptible to the things that box triggers are susceptible to- collection of varnish, crud and debris over time. Just a fact associated with the design.

If the workers on the line putting the late New Havens together were experienced and paying attention to keeping tolerances tight and runout minimal on their machines, there was no compromise in the quality of the finished product. If the FN workers are not paying attention to CNC machines doing their thing, there is no guarantee the product will be superior or even equal to the older product. That is likely exactly what happened to the FN rifle I had. Not a safety issue and well within acceptable tolerances and standards for the market but not 100% up to what everyone THINKS a CNC product is either.

As to the question in the OP? Yes, not a difficult conversion. But it is right up to max length for standard Win 70 long action. No issue for a good gunsmith (can even be done, DIY at home, if brave with a spirit of adventure!) Shorten bolt stop, shorten and re-contour ejector, lengthen magazine box by removing spacer (may require cutting spacer out and re-silver soldering box together), replacing follower with magnum length follower, run 458 Lott reamer into chamber... creaping up to but not cutting into belt headspace rim!!!

 

[hammz]

As to the question in the OP? Yes, not a difficult conversion. But it is right up to max length for standard Win 70 long action. No issue for a good gunsmith (can even be done, DIY at home, if brave with a spirit of adventure!) Shorten bolt stop, shorten and re-contour ejector, lengthen magazine box by removing spacer (may require cutting spacer out and re-silver soldering box together), replacing follower with magnum length follower, run 458 Lott reamer into chamber... creaping up to but not cutting into belt headspace rim!!!

I'm pretty decent with basic gunsmithing stuff and could take care of most of that, not sure how comfortable I am with reaming the chamber myself though. That's something I'd just leave to a true professional if I do decide to eventually do the conversion. Midwest Gun Works has most of the parts so I'll probably just buy the magnum mag box and follower to have handy if I decide to ever go forward with the conversion.

 

[fourfive8]

If you can do basic work really not much problem. Usually the factory magazine box spacer is just a rectangular piece spot welded into the front of the magazine. You can take a small cut off wheel on a rotary tool to remove it from the magazine box. Then splice back in a piece of the thin metal to connect the front ends of the magazine back together- silver solder seems to work the best. Keep track of the front width as that needs to be a snug fit back into the milled rebate in the action. If a magnum length box is available, that will also work well and with minimal extra work.

Using a magnum length follower may not be required but I discovered the feeding was much better with the long follower.

A good, sharp reamer with a T handle will work. When you think about it... there is not much metal to remove converting from WM to Lott. Surprisingly easy and minimal if the reamer is in good condition and sharp. Mount the barreled action vertically in a vise. Insert reamer and start turning. Go slow with very little if any down pressure. Check OFTEN so as not to go too deep. Just up to the head space rim (belt). Use lots of oil. You can always do the reaming without an alignment guide but why not use the one that is already there. A bore alignment guide is already in place.... the bolt raceway in the action. You can fabricate a slip fit bushing that uses the raceway as the alignment guide. A chamber cut carefully this way may turn out just as true if not more so to axis as one done on a lathe. Chances are the gunsmith will remove the barrel from the action to ream on a lathe. He will adjust for near zero run out with the barrel, not zero run out with the action's axis.

 

[TOBY458]

My remedy would be this. Go buy five hundred 458 Lott cases. Buy a reamer as stated above. Plenty of oil. New magazine box and follower. Then this is the really tough part. Take a case trimmer and cut off all 500 of those Lott cases to 2.5" long. Then, chuck all that other stuff in a drawer and leave it as 458 WIN MAG!!!

 

[IvW]

Eish....

 

[TOBY458]

Eish....

Now you know you got a chuckle from that! Hahaha!

 

[IvW]

Yip....I will rather refrain from commenting....

 

[Badboymelvin]

What all would need to be done to rechamber a Model 70 Safari Express in .458 Win Mag to .458 Lott? Would it just be cutting the chamber to fit the Lott, or would the magazine well need to be opened up as well?

The .416 Rem Mag and .375 H&H both fit in the same action, so I'd think it'd just need the chamber opened up. I'd like to hear from anyone who has had this done, along with some gunsmiths they'd recommend to do the work.

So mate,

What do you reckon you're gonna do?
I vote for definitely leave it as is!

Cheers,

Russ

 

[hammz]

So mate,

What do you reckon you're gonna do?
I vote for definitely leave it as is!

Cheers,

Russ

Honestly I am most likely going to leave it as is for now. Maybe down the road I'll have it re-chambered but for now I'm just going to leave it alone. You all have done a good job convincing me