.450 3-1/4" BPE Ammo compatibility

[Nevada Mike]

I have my eye on an Alex Henry falling block rifle in 450 3-1/4" BPE (circa 1860s). I lbelieve that this is the same brass as used in the 450 3-1/4" NE. Am I right? How available is this brass? How difficult is it to develop a nitro for BP load?

Any help appreciated.

Mike

 

[1dirthawker]

cal pappas would be the first guy i talked to. he has a website and patrols this site as well.

 

[Ray B]

The Woodleigh handbook has information regarding smokeless powder loads that are equivalent to black powder.

 

[degoins]

First of all you will be lucky if any new factory brass will work. I know Hornady brass wouldn't work out of the box in either of my .450 bpes. the guy I bought my first one from provided some Hornady brass turned to fit on a lathe. I had Rocky Mountain Cartridge to make me some more based on one of those. I did buy some old KYNOCK .450 nitro ammo and the brass from that would fit both my rifles but they are Berdan primed. IMR4198 or H4198 are your friends. I've had excellent results with 48 grs IMR4198 and 300 to 350 gr cast bullets with either backer rod or dacron for fillers in both my double and single.
Hope this helps.

P.S. please show pics of the rifle.

 

[Nevada Mike]

Thank you. I was concerned that today's 450 3-1/4: brass would not work ina very old Alexander Henry falling block rifle. So I am left with either buying the rifle and fooling around with various options or passing on it. It is a lovely old rifle with a left hand hammer lock - perfect for me but not something I cannot do without.

 

[degoins]

You're welcome.
Don't let brass hassles turn you off. I almost bailed on my first .450 for the same reason. They are well worth the effort.
That Henry wouldn't be the one at Hallowell's would it?

 

[frog stealer]

My H&H 450 didn’t like Hornady brass either, and like others, it digested original Kynoch just fine. I ended up running the brass through a Lee 50 cal bullet sizing die based on suggestions of others...it worked!

 

[Nevada Mike]

You're welcome.
Don't let brass hassles turn you off. I almost bailed on my first .450 for the same reason. They are well worth the effort.
That Henry wouldn't be the one at Hallowell's would it?

Yes, that's the rifle. It's LEFT handed. Good for me, not so good for most people. I have not handled the rifle yet, but I am headed to Montana for fishing in a couple months and will make a point of passing through Bozeman on my way to Idaho from Montana.

 

[degoins]

I've pondered that rifle for a long time. The fact that it was made merely for years after our civil war ended is pretty amazing to me.
I have a left handed Henry pattern rifle by Dickson and it is no problem for a right handed shooter.

 

[degoins]

" I ended up running the brass through a Lee 50 cal bullet sizing die based on suggestions of others...it worked!"

Hmm........I'll have to try that if I can find a that die.

 

[degoins]

I've got a .510 cal bullet sizing die on the way. Can you tell me what the procedure is? I tried a few cases in my regular die by forcing them all the way into the die without using the shell holder. Not only did they still not fit my rifles but they were a beast to get out of the die.

 

[frog stealer]

I've got a .510 cal bullet sizing die on the way. Can you tell me what the procedure is? I tried a few cases in my regular die by forcing them all the way into the die without using the shell holder. Not only did they still not fit my rifles but they were a beast to get out of the die.

degoins,

First off, the reason standard brass isn’t fitting is because the old guns were made by hand, and no standards (SAAMI, CIP) existed yet, therefore chamber dimensions were not consistent.

When I got my double, I loaded some rounds with Hornady brass and noticed that the cartridge would hang up in the chamber with about 1/2” of brass still hanging out. Like you, I thought it was a sizing issue, and tried the exact same thing you did, sized the case without a shellholder. Same issue. I then took a sharpie and colored 3/4 of the case black, inserted it into the chamber, and spun it around to see were the rub marks were. I saw rub marks about an inch up from the case head. I then tried the 50 cal bullet sizer method, slowing increasing the depth I inserted the brass into the die, checking to see if it would chamber each time. Eventually I got there, locked the die with the ring, and used it every time after, always getting flawless chambering.

 

[degoins]

Very good information. Thanks for sharing. I can't wait to try it out.

 

[85lc]

Interesting reading these comments. I guess I am lucky. I use 450 NE brass in my 450 Lancaster oval bore DR and in a 450 Henry that I sold.
Of course, I anneal all brass and then size before loading.
BTW, Alexander Henry put the hammer on the left side so that the hammer didn't interfere with loading. Many Henrys have the hammer on the left side.

 

[HWL]

I recut the chamber of my rifle to CIP dimensions...... and all the trouble is gone.....Hornady cases work great now.

HWL