Am I being silly?

[Kevin Peacocke]

I have addressed this problem in some cheap lever guns by using brass with the thickest flange........ does ok.............not an option for you, I suspect........good luck...................FWB

Hi FWB, what range of brass has a thicker flange? I seem restricted to Norma PH and Bertrams. Bertrams are the ones that I am having the issues with, but would Norma PH be better?

 

[DWB]

Maybe worth investigating the old 303 Brit brass saving method of an o-ring infront of the rim, to allow the shoulder to move forward instead of the web area moving backwards. No excuse for a faulty gun, but some calibers are more prone reloading issues than others

 

[degoins]

I'm not surprised you are having trouble with Bertam brass. I've only ordered their brass once and none of the flash holes were punched through. I had to buy a drill bit the correct size and drill them out. This was several years ago and they may be better now, but it doesn't sound like it.

 

[Kevin Peacocke]

Guys, I think we may have this fixed. My gunsmith did some work on the rifle after we had all the issues and I now have the new dimensions from him. It appears he managed to trim the barrel horizontal seating ramp that mates to the horizontal action part resulting in the barrel face and the breach face becoming more parallel and closer. That gap is now 4 thou, much less than it was although I dont have a pre measurement you could see it was excessive. He also accurately re-measured the head spacing with Bertrams brass and got casing face to barrel face on the bottom barrel of 3.5 thou and on the top barrel 7.5 thou, these are the 'head spaces', yes? So the top barrel is bored 4 thou deeper than the bottom barrel. Taking the head space as well as the new barrel-to-breach gap we have 7,5 thou on the bottom barrel and 11.5 on the top. I have also just checked the actual flange recess empty with my vernier and get 57 thou on the bottom one and 60 thou on the top one. With rim thickness on the Bertrams brass is 54.5 thou all these meaurements closely tally with the gunsmiths measurements.
So are these new gaps reasonable - what do the gunsmith' amongst us think?
After all this work was done I fired four rounds and measured them and got 12 thou stretch on the spent cartridges from both the top and bottom barrels, no problems with splitting, but these were new brass. Then I fired two more rounds and the second one separated and the breach opened again. But that second case was definitely a reload that was first fired before the adjustments were made, maybe second reload.
So the question is, if I had only fired new brass afrer the adjustments were made, would the problem have been solved, ie the stretch grown to 12 thou and just stayed there?

We will only know when I get some new factory Norma PH's and see what happens. I have bought them, will try to import them by Feb. Until then I think the only course of action is to park the whole saga and shoot the Ruger instead.

 

[Hogpatrol]

Guys, I think we may have this fixed. My gunsmith did some work on the rifle after we had all the issues and I now have the new dimensions from him. It appears he managed to trim the barrel horizontal seating ramp that mates to the horizontal action part resulting in the barrel face and the breach face becoming more parallel and closer. That gap is now 4 thou, much less than it was although I dont have a pre measurement you could see it was excessive. He also accurately re-measured the head spacing with Bertrams brass and got casing face to barrel face on the bottom barrel of 3.5 thou and on the top barrel 7.5 thou, these are the 'head spaces', yes? So the top barrel is bored 4 thou deeper than the bottom barrel. Taking the head space as well as the new barrel-to-breach gap we have 7,5 thou on the bottom barrel and 11.5 on the top. I have also just checked the actual flange recess empty with my vernier and get 57 thou on the bottom one and 60 thou on the top one. With rim thickness on the Bertrams brass is 54.5 thou all these meaurements closely tally with the gunsmiths measurements.
So are these new gaps reasonable - what do the gunsmith' amongst us think?
After all this work was done I fired four rounds and measured them and got 12 thou stretch on the spent cartridges from both the top and bottom barrels, no problems with splitting, but these were new brass. Then I fired two more rounds and the second one separated and the breach opened again. But that second case was definitely a reload that was first fired before the adjustments were made, maybe second reload.
So the question is, if I had only fired new brass afrer the adjustments were made, would the problem have been solved, ie the stretch grown to 12 thou and just stayed there?

We will only know when I get some new factory Norma PH's and see what happens. I have bought them, will try to import them by Feb. Until then I think the only course of action is to park the whole saga and shoot the Ruger instead.

This is a damn shame. I wonder if you'll be out of luck on the warranty now that the barrels have been altered. I hope not. The rifle opening would scare me, especially in a DG gone south scenario.

 

[IvW]

I would wait for VC and not continue test firing...

 

[degoins]

+1

 

[mdwest]

I would wait for VC and not continue test firing...

I agree...

Far too expensive of an investment to take chances/risks.. until you know where VC stands on this...

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

You may have seen on various posts and replies I have made that I bought a new Verney Carron 375 Flanged Magnum O/U. This is/was my dream rifle, it fits perfectly, it is well regulated and I shoot it well. Nice wood, light, finnesseful. Problem is it has excess head spacing, the top barrel more than the bottom one, 24 thou and 12 thou respectively. The net result is that it shoots fine with new cases, but splits reloads, both top and bottom barrel, on the first or second reload. So all ammo must be new, which is not easy in Zimbabwe, but nevertheless doable.
The question - should I accept this situation and keep the Verney, or write it off and start dreaming of a Heym 89B? Is this a fatal flaw, or just an annoyance that I am over-reacting to? What would you do?

@Kevin Peacocke
Why not get a competent gunsmith to rectify the headspace issues. It could be as simple as worn trunions that need replacing. If worse comes to worse you could always send it to the manufacturer for repair. It seems a pity to scrap a rifle you love so much.
Bob

 

[Kevin Peacocke]

Agreed, I will wait.

 

[IvW]

@Kevin Peacocke
Why not get a competent gunsmith to rectify the headspace issues. It could be as simple as worn trunions that need replacing. If worse comes to worse you could always send it to the manufacturer for repair. It seems a pity to scrap a rifle you love so much.
Bob

It is a O/U double...not so easy to fix excessive head space....
It is a new rifle trunions cannot be worn....

 

[IvW]

The rifle is in Zim....

 

[jacques smith]

I agree with all that think this is accident looking for a place to happen
I definitely would not keep fooling with it till I got VC take and possible solution
Interesting caliber choice

 

[Hunter4752001]

I think you are wise to have reported the issue to Verney Carron and to leave it until they respond. You may have to wait quite a bit longer than normal, I think the France, and especially the Saint-Étienne area, has been in an extended lockdown due to the corona virus. Perhaps one of our French members could clarify.

Definitely recommend Norma brass over Bertram. Bertram is great for obsolete calibres when there is no alternative, but quality isn't his strong point.

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

You may have seen on various posts and replies I have made that I bought a new Verney Carron 375 Flanged Magnum O/U. This is/was my dream rifle, it fits perfectly, it is well regulated and I shoot it well. Nice wood, light, finnesseful. Problem is it has excess head spacing, the top barrel more than the bottom one, 24 thou and 12 thou respectively. The net result is that it shoots fine with new cases, but splits reloads, both top and bottom barrel, on the first or second reload. So all ammo must be new, which is not easy in Zimbabwe, but nevertheless doable.
The question - should I accept this situation and keep the Verney, or write it off and start dreaming of a Heym 89B? Is this a fatal flaw, or just an annoyance that I am over-reacting to? What would you do?

I just had a thought in regards to what I do when reloading brass for my rifles. Some would call it Partial Full Length resizing, but I prefer to think of it as full length resizing for my particular rifle. You may want to take this so far as to separate brass that has been fired by which barrel it was fired in.

Instead of setting up the die based on contact with the shell holder, I put a spent piece of brass in the shell holder and raise the ram with the die only started.

I then screw the die down until the die stops against the shoulder. Then I lower the ram and screw the die in about one eighth or so of a turn. Once again raise the lubed brass the entire way to deprime and “fully” resize the brass.

The idea is to just bump the shoulder back 1-2 thousandths. This of course minimizes the amount of stretch of the brass that occurs when firing. This should negate the impact of excessive head spacing I think.

Just kind of thinking out loud on this. It may not work, but I don’t see where it would hurt either.

By the way I only hunt with new brass. Resized brass is for practice and load development, never do I use it in the field.

 

[M McDindi]

Kevin - just a thought.....beside the head space issue, in your original post said "new" brass was fine but 2nd or 3rd reloading was when the cases split. I didn't see where you said the brass was splitting, in the neck, shoulder, body, or webbing at/near the case head. Is it possible the factory is not annealing the brass at all so it's actually too hard?

I got a bunch of supposedly new Fed in 30/06. Pristine when they arrived. My first reloading cycle of the fist 50 cases went fine. Second cycle (third in their life) an nearly 50% split in the case neck or at the neck/shoulder. Ended up having to anneal them all and they are fine now with several reloading cycles without a split/crack.

Maybe since your smith was able to improve the head space situation and trying to anneal a few brass and see what happens.

Michael

 

[WAB]

I am at a loss as to why your rifle is opening on firing. This seems to be much more than a headspace issue. I agree with others, do not fire or alter it further until VC weighs in. Have you tagged them on this post? They are on the site but may not have happened on this post. Given your location difficulties, they may concede to work with a local smith to rectify the problem.

 

[deewayne2003]

Irrelevant reply but they do build rifles that take 20,000 more PSI than the problem rifle. Searcy is an American made double rifle if you want to pick nits.

Off topic from the OP but I have personally seen a new in box Remington 700 fire with the safety being clicked off; again it was 100% new in box and we just mounted the scope.... Remington replaced it.

Highschool buddy got a brand new 700 7mm Rem Mag & a box of Corelokts instead of a high school graduation ring; this rifle was blowing primers out the back of the cases and it wasn't until the 8th round we noticed it.... Remington replaced it admitting bad head space.

I could go on, but my point is that modern guns certainly do have problems and it's how the companies address these problems - I bet VC will handle this appropriately once notified.

Remington on the other hand just continues to have quality control issues in my personal opinion.

 

[steve white]

You may have seen on various posts and replies I have made that I bought a new Verney Carron 375 Flanged Magnum O/U. This is/was my dream rifle, it fits perfectly, it is well regulated and I shoot it well. Nice wood, light, finnesseful. Problem is it has excess head spacing, the top barrel more than the bottom one, 24 thou and 12 thou respectively. The net result is that it shoots fine with new cases, but splits reloads, both top and bottom barrel, on the first or second reload. So all ammo must be new, which is not easy in Zimbabwe, but nevertheless doable.
The question - should I accept this situation and keep the Verney, or write it off and start dreaming of a Heym 89B? Is this a fatal flaw, or just an annoyance that I am over-reacting to? What would you do?

Headspace can be fixed by soldering in a shim, though you may well have to reblue the barrels. Ralph Walker did it often on shotguns. Usually you make the shim too thick, then cut it to exact headspace depth.

 

[Kevin Peacocke]

Kevin - just a thought.....beside the head space issue, in your original post said "new" brass was fine but 2nd or 3rd reloading was when the cases split. I didn't see where you said the brass was splitting, in the neck, shoulder, body, or webbing at/near the case head. Is it possible the factory is not annealing the brass at all so it's actually too hard?

I got a bunch of supposedly new Fed in 30/06. Pristine when they arrived. My first reloading cycle of the fist 50 cases went fine. Second cycle (third in their life) an nearly 50% split in the case neck or at the neck/shoulder. Ended up having to anneal them all and they are fine now with several reloading cycles without a split/crack.

Maybe since your smith was able to improve the head space situation and trying to anneal a few brass and see what happens.

Michael

Hi Michael,
It always splits in about the same place. The section is after a one fire in the top barrel before the barrel to breach space was closed up a bit.