Apples & Oranges: What do you compare in a hunt offer?

[BRICKBURN]

It has struck me of late that offers are being compared without the knowledge of how to effectively evaluate and compare offers.

Asking questions for clarification or hacking an offer! There is a huge difference.
This is not a new problem, it rears its head on a cyclical basis on AH.
There tends to be a lumping of offers into a continental comparison: "Africa" vs the various countries.


Value for Money - that South African expression comes to mind. It is in the eye of the beholder.

It makes it pretty simple when the species can not be hunted anywhere else and there are only three Outfitters offering the opportunity. Mountain Nyala comes to mind. Pricing in that case is almost "if you need to ask, don't bother."

Other species however can be found in multiple locations and with many Outfitters.
Exclusivity along with the rarity of the species impacts the price.
Rarity example: Cape Grysbok, Sitatunga, Bongo, Black Rhino etc.

Exclusivity: Private reserve, large government concession, small holding/camp, rented concession.

Country: Taxes, concession fees, government fees, (I can't list them all), park ranger, etc.

Some other obvious hunt variables:
Leopard - With Dogs, Baited, Nighttime, Wild area, cattle ranch, etc.
Elephant: Tuskless, Own use, Trophy (size), crop raiding, etc.
Lion: CBL, Wild


So, how do you compare offers?

 

[ActionBob]

No time to fully answer this but I like the bongo example.... In that case I first compare who I will be hunting with, looking more at the total expected experience than other issues... As for price, there are the basic costs involved and they are quite high, so not trying to get past that but rather go into the mode of is this outfit treating me fairly for what I'm getting compared to the other outfit. First priority being I want to like the people I'm going with and doing business with, in addition to liking them, I want to have a level of respect for them as well. And in spending all this money and effort, I want a level of success to be reasonably attainable but honestly represented... Such as adding on a Sitatunga, are they representing that fairly and honestly? Then are the outfitter and PH ambitious enough to work as much as I would like.... If we hunt Bongo morning and evening, will they be willing to go after sitatunga mid day or are they doing to insist on taking time for a nap? Can I have some influence on that depending upon how I feel or is it set in stone how they do it... After all, who's vacation is it and who is working?

After all that, if an outfitter throws me a deal, even as simple as saying I can bring an observer along for free or a very reasonable cost, that may cinch the deal, providing two have come out equal on all the above.

 

[BWH]

Lot's of variables..... Like the type of animals & location. Some of that answers the questions for you.... Mtn. Nyala, Lord Derby or rare species. "If you have to ask, you can't afford"

Ultimately, Experience & Value. What are you getting for what you are paying. Quality of animals & quality of lodging, food, ranches, terrain, concessions.

Location..... some want to be within an hour or 2 of JNB. Hunting as soon as they deplane. Others want to get as far away from civilization as possible.

Side trips..... Possibility of getting to see the falls, Kruger, parks, etc.

I think some people want that truly wild experience..... in a tent, no luxuries. Others may prefer a more 5 star experience.

Also, to some degree, you get what you pay for. There are always some deals to be had.... maybe deeper ones at desperate times for some.

I am more of a Chevy/Ford guy. I like the nice things, not required. Don't mind roughing it. Price is nice, but not the end all be all.

Guess it just depends on a person really wants & what they want to pay.

 

[Ragman]

Good topic. I have only hunted Africa once and am booked for my second hunt in 2018, so my opinion won't count for as much as others based on lack of experience. BUT....if I am comparing two hunts with two different outfitters (especially if they are in the same general location), the number of hunting days is a biggie. I am all for hunting all the days in the time that I am paying daily rates for. If the hunt is for 7 days with 5 days hunting and the other two pick-up and drop-off days, you'll never get my business. To me a 7 day hunt is 7 days of hunting. Pick-up and drop-off are on the outfitter.

 

[Royal27]

Great question!

I think the first thing a potential client needs to understand is what they actually want, and many don't. Until you know this how can you compare???

The "I can get it cheaper at xx game farm" is like going into a car dealership, looking at a $50k car, and then telling the dealer you can get a bicycle for $100 at Walmart. Yes you can, but the comparison is laughable.

Same thing with hunts. Even for a common animal such as a buffalo the experience between an SA farm and a wild experience in Zim, Zim, Moz, etc isn't the same, period. There isn't the wildness, lack of roads, lack of fences, or just the remoteness. The hunts ARE different to me and in my opinion anyone who says they are the same is just trying to fool themselves or someone else.

Now that does not mean that that both hunts don't have their place and their own clientele, simply that they are different.

So.... Decide if you want an apple or an orange and then look for that fruit. Then and only then can you even begin your own comparison (and immediately weed out some offers because they don't fit you).

 

[PeteG]

e in Zim, Zim, Mozilla, etc isn't the same, period. .

Hmm... !!!
Ha ha ha.
I think we get what you're trying to say though!!!

 

[Royal27]

Hmm... !!!
Ha ha ha.
I think we get what you're trying to say though!!!

Stupid auto correct!

 

[GA Hunter]

Great thread Brick!

 

[GA Hunter]

Good topic. I have only hunted Africa once and am booked for my second hunt in 2018, so my opinion won't count for as much as others based on lack of experience. BUT....if I am comparing two hunts with two different outfitters (especially if they are in the same general location), the number of hunting days is a biggie. I am all for hunting all the days in the time that I am paying daily rates for. If the hunt is for 7 days with 5 days hunting and the other two pick-up and drop-off days, you'll never get my business. To me a 7 day hunt is 7 days of hunting. Pick-up and drop-off are on the outfitter.

It's the newcomers that I want to hear from. Pure curiosity I suppose.

 

[cls]

I think the first thing a potential client needs to understand is what they actually want, and many don't. Until you know this how can you compare???

What you said. This is where it all starts. Some people have Cadillac tastes on a Volkswagen budget. I typically don't worry about the money until I have decided what I want to hunt followed by where I want to hunt and how I want to hunt that particular animal. Then I look at what the outfitters have to offer for what they are charging.

Asking questions for clarification or hacking an offer! There is a huge difference.

I don't understand this either. Why hack an offer? If you don't have something constructive to add you don't need to be part of the conversation.
Just my two bits.

 

[Hank2211]

I would take the unique and the rare out of the discussion. They are by definition expensive, and require a different level of diligence.

But for the general plains game, how do people compare offers? One thing I see frequently, and hear about more, is to simply compare trophy prices and day rates. If someone is offering a buffalo at $13,000 and another at $7,500, then the lower priced one is the one to take. Or, if there are issues with it - small property, put and take, etc., then I can still use it to beat the more expensive outfitter over the head, and get him to lower his price. Same for day rates - some offer free day rates, and some charge at the top. If price is what's most important, then go with the low cost alternative. But that's not how I would do things.

I will never say that price is unimportant, but within a range of reasonableness, it is not at the top of the list. Top of the list is to compare the types of hunting experiences on offer, and choose the one which gives me what I am looking for. Of course, if all you want is a trophy, and how you get it is of lesser or no importance, then you'd have a different priority list (and try as I might to be non-judgemental, I'd fail!).

I do think many people, even if they do make up lists of priorities, tend to ignore their own priorities when selecting a hunt, focusing too much on price, and then are unhappy with the results.

Figure out what kind of hunting experience you want, and then find an outfitter who will deliver that. And decide which outfitter that is not by what he says, but by what those who have hunted with him have said. Between this site, The Hunting Report, and the internet generally, if you can't find reviews of an outfitter, then you have another decision to make. There is nothing wrong with being the first at anything, but it's a different risk profile.

 

[Pheroze]

Trust for me was the most important thing. I paid attention to who was well regarded on AH. Then, the fact that they came to a show in a city near me sealed the deal. There were others at the show, but they didn't show up on AH, and there were others on AH but they didn't show up in Canada. It was a trust thing

As for price, ... but rather go into the mode of is this outfit treating me fairly for what I'm getting compared to the other outfit.

I want to be treated with respect, and that includes pricing. But, I want my PH to be successful and makes profit. That is one way I show respect to him. Again, trust. If I feel I am being played there will be no second time around. I like to invest in relationships.

 

[Erny]

This is a interesting question. For me price is a factor but not the sole reason I choose my outfitters. My first 2 hunts were chosen because the PH was so helpful in in explaining everything to us. It was my first international hunt. Now I tend to choose on Geographic region and animals offered. It seems that the very nice accommodations that some offer are wasted on me. I am a pretty simple guy when it comes to hunting and the lodging as long as it is comfortable is good to me. I guess the bottom line.... to answer the question it's the total package not any single criteria that makes me choose and outfitter. I will tell you that the website and its content certainly play a significant role. If the website is all about killing and inches of horn, I will tend to pass, as opposed to a website that focuses on the overall experience and a friendly atmosphere.

Now on the other hand, I have a friend who is so fixated on the price of the hunt that he books with the one with the lower price...period. Price is his sole criteria! He is constantly displeased with his trips. He wants to pay rock bottom prices but expects 5 star service.

 

[mrpoindexter]

I will never say that price is unimportant, but within a range of reasonableness, it is not at the top of the list. Top of the list is to compare the types of hunting experiences on offer, and choose the one which gives me what I am looking for. Of course, if all you want is a trophy, and how you get it is of lesser or no importance, then you'd have a different priority list (and try as I might to be non-judgemental, I'd fail!).

Certainly if one makes the most trophy the main concern, then it would likely come down to trophy quality and price. I expect a 5 star experience even when I hunt on the cheap. That is not 5 star service, but the experience. I am OK with roughing it on a hunt if I know going in to expect it, as long as it is reasonable for the area and is still a good hunting experience. Maybe the cheaper hunt is tough country, but that can be a more rewarding experience if you are looking for a challenge. I don't have a lot of experience, but the two safaris I have been on so far have been excellent and I hope my next two coming up in July are as good as the ones in the salt.

No ranches are the same, nor are PHs, accommodations, herds, etc. It will always be an apples to oranges comparison, or at best case, a Granny Smith vs. Fuji Apple comparison. There are some great deals though and I aim to take advantage of them. I don't expect there to be many when I get around to the LDE, Bongo and Mtn Nyala.

 

[Hank2211]

There are some great deals though and I aim to take advantage of them. I don't expect there to be many when I get around to the LDE, Bongo and Mtn Nyala.

I looked for great deals for all three. I had two of the toughest hunts of my life for the bongo and mountain nyala . . . and found no deals when I booked the LDE hunt.

Having said that, the two were the highlights of my hunting career and while they were expensive, the experiences will never be forgotten. That's a great deal, in my book at least.

 

[mrpoindexter]

Looking for great deals will be a constant hobby of mine, but using a bow cuts down the potential outfitter pool considerably and will be a real challenge on the Mountain Nyala hunt. Heck, it will probably be a stumbling block on a lot of hunts. I guess we all have our requirements for a hunt that can narrow down a list of offers a little or a lot.

 

[BRICKBURN]

...................
I think some people want that truly wild experience..... in a tent, no luxuries. Others may prefer a more 5 star experience. ...... .

Ultimately, whether you want it or not will always be your personal decision.

How do you compare these two. Tent and 5*. If they are the same price, no doubt someone is about to complain about the offer.

We correlate remoteness and a tent as being acceptable. I wonder about a tent in, for instance, the Eastern Cape.
Reading a recent Ele hunt report showed some pretty nice digs in an old train car. It took some more time driving. Would you accept a tent and sandwiches with a bucket shower for the same price?

 

[BRICKBURN]

.................. Price is his sole criteria! He is constantly displeased with his trips. He wants to pay rock bottom prices but expects 5 star service.

Slow learner. You have to have a budget but damn.

 

[mrpoindexter]

Hey, that was my ele hunt! Well, that was a very discounted elephant hunt and we had the option of a much closer camp that wasn't as nice. Wayne opted for the train cars that I had not seen and I trusted his choice. That was a decision about more driving but a nicer camp. It didn't cut into hunting time - we hunted from sunup to sundown. It did cut into the other time. If we were in Limpopo or the Eastern Cape, I would have to ask why on the tent camp and bucket shower, but in Zimbabwe where the nearest town is a 90 minute drive and doesn't have a paved street in the whole town, a tent camp is understandable.

But if I wanted the closer camp, I probably could have spoken up and gotten it. Best to let those who are informed make the choice and glad I did. The train cars were awesome.

 

[BRICKBURN]

@KMG Hunting Safaris has offered a "rough it" package in the past where the accommodation was a little more rustic and adjusted the price accordingly. (Not a bucket and tent though)
You got to hunt the same concessions and started from your own digs.

South Africans (locals) do self catering hunts all the time. Not really an option for us International clients, but reducing the overhead does reduce the hunt cost.