What rifle do you totally trust on dangerous game and what rifle do you mistrust on Dangerous game

[Rifleman97]

I have hunted down to ~ -30° C. And alone. At those temps a mere sprained ankle could be fatal. A blown out knee definitely would be unless you have an ATV very close at hand (and I've never used them except three times someone retrieved my deer). Move carefully but continuously ... and carry food! Forget about building a fire. You'll waste more energy keeping it going than it will provide. Keep your internal engine running. I have dressed a moose in -22° and it was brutal. A pair of kitchen rubber gloves would have made a huge difference. I really do not think you want to hunt in any temp below -26°! It is miserable ... and can be scary ... even if the wind doesn't blow. A slight breeze can be fatal.

I actually meant -26F! That's roughly -33C, with -48C wind chill, and I camped overnight in those conditions. I didn't bother with a fire, I did use a double wall tent to prevent moisture condensation on the inside of the tent, and a feathered friends -40 bag (-40 is the same temp in both F and C). I being bald wore 2 hats inside of the sleeping bag, I used the Outdoor Boys trick of 2 hot water bottles in my sleeping bag, heated with a portable stove, and slept fully clothed (with different clothes than the ones I wore during that day to prevent the frozen sweat from melting and cooling me down).

The biggest challenge was just being able to see anything as I am quite blind at -4.5 to -5, and my eyes don't really take to contacts, they turn red and puff up, so I'm stuck to regular glasses. So a lot of regular warm techniques like the balaclava only accelerate my vision loss. I think if I want to get more serious about it I want to try some prescription oakley snowboarding/skiing goggles. They might fog up but they'll do so less than my glasses do, and are less likely to fall off my face and get busted, leaving me in a pretty nasty situation.

Hardly any scope they fog up tear up and break up .I had no problems at -30 with scopes but below that scopes are the first thing to go.I usually just small game hunted in the winter with a double barrel that only messed up at -45 .Its funny now but i went in rotten snow fell through 20 feet of snow on side of the road took forever to find my shotgun .I tied it to my belt after that .I didnt like winter caribou didnt taste good loved them in velvet to eat .

That's kinda why I asked, I ruined an Athlon trying to coyote hunt in some very cold temps. I stored the gun outside in the truck overnight before hunting to get the temp of the gun/scope down so it wouldnt be condensing on the lenses from cooling down. Went to zoom in the scope after I found a good vantage point and right about when I hit 4 power (it was a 1-6) the image instantly turned milky, and even in the warm temps never cleared back up. I sent it in and the Athlon guys sent me a new scope with very few questions asked. Apparently they don't test their scopes to the most extreme cold, only something like-10F, or roughly -23C, chest freezer temps. They might now though, this was 5 years ago.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

Thats why you get a sub caliber analogue.
If your 404 is 12 lbs fet a 10lb 300wm or 375

May be cheaper to shoot but there's still the "getting beat up for no good reason" factor. Practicing in the house with snap caps in the same big bore rifle one intends to use in Africa will develop "muscle memory" without causing a flinch. And save me the expense of another gun I really don't need plus the cost of ammo to feed it. That savings could easily buy me an extra kudu ... or two.

 

[1:66 twiste@d]

Trust what you practice with! And be prepared mentally and physically for that charging DG. Just my 2 cents.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

I actually meant -26F! That's roughly -33C, with -48C wind chill, and I camped overnight in those conditions. I didn't bother with a fire, I did use a double wall tent to prevent moisture condensation on the inside of the tent, and a feathered friends -40 bag (-40 is the same temp in both F and C). I being bald wore 2 hats inside of the sleeping bag, I used the Outdoor Boys trick of 2 hot water bottles in my sleeping bag, heated with a portable stove, and slept fully clothed (with different clothes than the ones I wore during that day to prevent the frozen sweat from melting and cooling me down).

The biggest challenge was just being able to see anything as I am quite blind at -4.5 to -5, and my eyes don't really take to contacts, they turn red and puff up, so I'm stuck to regular glasses. So a lot of regular warm techniques like the balaclava only accelerate my vision loss. I think if I want to get more serious about it I want to try some prescription oakley snowboarding/skiing goggles. They might fog up but they'll do so less than my glasses do, and are less likely to fall off my face and get busted, leaving me in a pretty nasty situation.

That's kinda why I asked, I ruined an Athlon trying to coyote hunt in some very cold temps. I stored the gun outside in the truck overnight before hunting to get the temp of the gun/scope down so it wouldnt be condensing on the lenses from cooling down. Went to zoom in the scope after I found a good vantage point and right about when I hit 4 power (it was a 1-6) the image instantly turned milky, and even in the warm temps never cleared back up. I sent it in and the Athlon guys sent me a new scope with very few questions asked. Apparently they don't test their scopes to the most extreme cold, only something like-10F, or roughly -23C, chest freezer temps. They might now though, this was 5 years ago.

Back when I did that kind of ultra-cold hunting foolishness, I explored the ski goggle idea as I also require prescription glasses. Too much money and speaking to some folks who had them, the improvement was not significant (except for skiing). Hunting in that weather is certainly tricky. Incidentally, I hunted for nearly forty years in some terrible conditions, including severe cold, and my no frills 3x Weaver scope never failed. The 03A3 failed to fire once and I simply backed out, emptied the chamber, dry fired it half a dozen times, loaded a round, walked back over the hill, and shot the moose. Gutting it bare handed and still keeping my fingers from serious frostbite was tricky. Partly unzip my jacket, unbutton my wool shirt and longjohns, and kept shoving my hands inside to bring fingers back too life. Needless to say I was a bloody smelly mess when I got back home. The wife thought I'd shot myself.

 

[farmer_john]

May be cheaper to shoot but there's still the "getting beat up for no good reason" factor. Practicing in the house with snap caps in the same big bore rifle one intends to use in Africa will develop "muscle memory" without causing a flinch. And save me the expense of another gun I really don't need plus the cost of ammo to feed it. That savings could easily buy me an extra kudu ... or two.

Respectfully disagree. Snap caps are fine for practicing form inside on a rainy day. But its not that great for practice.

Id also say the same of people who just sit there shooting a oiece of paper from a fixed position. I typically only shoot stationary when working a load.

When you get charged by a buffalo or hike up a mountian looking for an elk. your heart rate wont be like in your living room on a saturday.

Example. Run 50-100m from or towards a target to get your heart rate up then shoot.

Practice angle fire.

Getting a shot timer and do some physical activity be it short sprint ect get heart rate going from the buzzer set up your sticks tripod ect and fire a shot at your target.
The timer will give you your setup time to shot and then you can score it to get your hit factor to improve..


Granted I come from a different shooting background but theres alot of good that comes from real trigger time. And you dont need to shoot thousands upon thousands to get very good in short order

 

[Rifleman97]

Back when I did that kind of ultra-cold hunting foolishness, I explored the ski goggle idea as I also require prescription glasses. Too much money and speaking to some folks who had them, the improvement was not significant (except for skiing). Hunting in that weather is certainly tricky. Incidentally, I hunted for nearly forty years in some terrible conditions, including severe cold, and my no frills 3x Weaver scope never failed. The 03A3 failed to fire once and I simply backed out, emptied the chamber, dry fired it half a dozen times, loaded a round, walked back over the hill, and shot the moose. Gutting it bare handed and still keeping my fingers from serious frostbite was tricky. Partly unzip my jacket, unbutton my wool shirt and longjohns, and kept shoving my hands inside to bring fingers back too life. Needless to say I was a bloody smelly mess when I got back home. The wife thought I'd shot myself.

I've done similar, minus the failure to fire! I bring calving gloves and hair ties with me, that way I can leave all my clothes on minus the warm gloves, and stick my arms almost up to my shoulder inside of the animal to get some warmth. For deer, I don't cut open the chest like most do, I just go up from the stomach area below the sternum as it's less work, and doing it that way lets me stay a bit warmer than when I have more access with sawing open the chest. The gloves kinda suck and when they freeze and get flexed they often crack and make a leak, but the goal isnt to be perfectly sterile, just to minimize how much blood gets on the outside of my clothes to make washing easier and prevent the liquid freezing from causing any issues with flexibility of clothing, heat loss, etc.

I started bringing calving gloves on every cold weather hunt about 10 years ago and I don't know why more people don't bring them, they're awesome. 30 cents a pair or less if you get them from a vet or farm supply store. The hair ties I started doing 3 years ago to prevent them from coming down off the shoulder when my girlfriend recommended that to me.

 

[farmer_john]

I've done similar, minus the failure to fire! I bring calving gloves and hair ties with me, that way I can leave all my clothes on minus the warm gloves, and stick my arms almost up to my shoulder inside of the animal to get some warmth. For deer, I don't cut open the chest like most do, I just go up from the stomach area below the sternum as it's less work, and doing it that way lets me stay a bit warmer than when I have more access with sawing open the chest. The gloves kinda suck and when they freeze and get flexed they often crack and make a leak, but the goal isnt to be perfectly sterile, just to minimize how much blood gets on the outside of my clothes to make washing easier and prevent the liquid freezing from causing any issues with flexibility of clothing, heat loss, etc.

I started bringing calving gloves on every cold weather hunt about 10 years ago and I don't know why more people don't bring them, they're awesome. 30 cents a pair or less if you get them from a vet or farm supply store. The hair ties I started doing 3 years ago to prevent them from coming down off the shoulder when my girlfriend recommended that to me.

Thats actually a pretty great idea.

 

[SStomcat]

The Kreighoff seems to perform well, although I have seen my friend's misfiring and the jury is out on whether it was the firing pins or ammo. There is no third lockup either.

First time hearing even though I have heard of misfires from Londons best
Third lock up is not necessary. I have looked at breach area of both Heym and Krighoff and few Londons best as well with a fine tooth comb and they are strong enough for the regulation that they are proofed

 

[Kevin Peacocke]

First time hearing even though I have heard of misfires from Londons best
Third lock up is not necessary. I have looked at breach area of both Heym and Krighoff and few Londons best as well with a fine tooth comb and they are strong enough for the regulation that they are proofed

Having had a failed action I will admit that I am a bit over sensitive to the lockup issue.
Please can anyone else shed their thoughts upon this, in particular have you experienced lockup failures?

 

[Ontario Hunter]

I've done similar, minus the failure to fire! I bring calving gloves and hair ties with me, that way I can leave all my clothes on minus the warm gloves, and stick my arms almost up to my shoulder inside of the animal to get some warmth. For deer, I don't cut open the chest like most do, I just go up from the stomach area below the sternum as it's less work, and doing it that way lets me stay a bit warmer than when I have more access with sawing open the chest. The gloves kinda suck and when they freeze and get flexed they often crack and make a leak, but the goal isnt to be perfectly sterile, just to minimize how much blood gets on the outside of my clothes to make washing easier and prevent the liquid freezing from causing any issues with flexibility of clothing, heat loss, etc.

I started bringing calving gloves on every cold weather hunt about 10 years ago and I don't know why more people don't bring them, they're awesome. 30 cents a pair or less if you get them from a vet or farm supply store. The hair ties I started doing 3 years ago to prevent them from coming down off the shoulder when my girlfriend recommended that to me.

Yeah, hacking/sawing open the breast is waste of time nonsense on freezing cold days. Save your energy for the other work that lies ahead (i.e. getting the carcass out).

Calving gloves is an interesting idea. Maybe for big animals. I've pretty much got deer gutting down to a fine art. Sleeves rolled up past my elbows and I rarely get blood any further than half way to them. Then wash clean with snow when I'm done. Trachea and esophagus stay in till it's hanging and skinned. Then I'll split the sternum. Cutting the throat in the field is another bullshit hunters safety course myth. If it's a big elk or moose removing the trachea, etc MIGHT help cool the neck a bit but best to get it quartered and skinned ASAP, especially if warm out. In warm weather pulling the trachea alone won't save that meat. Won't help at all. The skin on a bull elk's neck can be an inch thick!

Supposed to gut the deer, not myself. Flagging tape doubles as bandage.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

Respectfully disagree. Snap caps are fine for practicing form inside on a rainy day. But its not that great for practice.

Id also say the same of people who just sit there shooting a oiece of paper from a fixed position. I typically only shoot stationary when working a load.

When you get charged by a buffalo or hike up a mountian looking for an elk. your heart rate wont be like in your living room on a saturday.

Example. Run 50-100m from or towards a target to get your heart rate up then shoot.

Practice angle fire.

Getting a shot timer and do some physical activity be it short sprint ect get heart rate going from the buzzer set up your sticks tripod ect and fire a shot at your target.
The timer will give you your setup time to shot and then you can score it to get your hit factor to improve..


Granted I come from a different shooting background but theres alot of good that comes from real trigger time. And you dont need to shoot thousands upon thousands to get very good in short order

Actually, for field simulation purposes I will climb my basement stairs a half dozen times in succession, then attempt getting on a target and dry firing. I suppose I could run in place at the range and then attempt shooting a target with real ammo but I don't see much difference ... except I might look like an idiot to the other guys using the range. People who act odd with guns are usually to be avoided.

Reminds me of when I first took up trap shooting. I discovered at the patterning board if I shot both eyes open, the pattern pulled up and to right. This is because my non shooting non dominant left eye has been significantly damaged by multiple retina surgeries. So I had to learn to close that eye when the gun was mounted but initially wanted it open for target acquisition and depth perception. So I practiced hundreds of times in the living room at night mounting and swinging on imaginary target closing the left eye. Well, one night there's a knock on the door and it's the police. "Is everything okay? Are you alone?" Yeah, why? "One of the neighbors saw you with a gun swinging it around wildly." I explained and we all had a chuckle. Then I promised to close the picture window drapes in future.

 

[mitch4570]

Dangerous game climate matters. I believe the reason a lot of alaskans prefer controlled round feed isnt for feeding at all, it's for mechanical ejection. Plunger ejectors often fail in the most extreme cold they get up there (sometimes colder than -40 degrees) and I know of one guide that doesn't use any oil or lube on his stainless 77 because he found that if he so much as slightly oils his firing pin mechanics, the firing pin will fail to have full strength on the coldest days of the year. He sprays his gun down with brake clean and leaves it like that, saying that the extra wear on the gun is worth it for his safety.

In Africa, cold weather is not a concern. Dangerous animals charging are a bigger concern there, especially to PH's who have a lot more encounters in their life than the client will. So CRF and double rifles are more often used for their reliability to stop a charge than in AK.

I've never hunted in temps so low that plunger ejectors outright don't work, but I do testing on ammo at -20F whenever the polar vortex gets down that low to make sure that my powder behaves predictably in extreme weather, and I have noticed that ejection is weaker than in the summer. Not by much, but noticeably.

Weatherby uses push feed, plunger ejection. They're nice rifles and I own several, but they wouldn't be my first choice if I had other options for alaska, even without being in bear territory. Just for the reliability of ejection should I need followup shots if hunting in sub 0 temps.

Top of my list Mitch for reliability, strength and good design and build quality is the Heym 89b. It has a Greener cross bolt third lockup so absolutely positive closing and immensely strong. I have put about 600 rounds through mine so far and it has performed flawlessly.

The rest all score some points for various good features, like the Merkel which also has a Greener cross bolt, but somewhat less on build quality and other features.

The Kreighoff seems to perform well, although I have seen my friend's misfiring and the jury is out on whether it was the firing pins or ammo. There is no third lockup either.

Chapuis would come next down, I have no personal experience, but there are several posts on this forum about various problems. I am sure not major though.

Rigby, WR, H&H and Purdey are obviously beautifully put together, but they would score no higher on my list than the Heym 89b, again because of design features and reliability. In fact I will open myself to a kicking and say I would take the Heym 89b over any of them. In fact, I looked at them all and did just that.

Glad you included Chapuis in that list. I have a Chapuis 470 ne that I just got back from JJ Perodeau for some upgrades. I have almost pulled the trigger on a few Heym 88bs but withheld thinking the money will go towards a elephant hunt. What game have you harvested with your Heym?

 

[Philip Glass]

I trust my Kreighoff double, my Blaser R8, and Barnes TSX for any DG scenario. I do not trust my Ruger .375 Ruger since it failed to eject and jammed on the leopard charge. Everyone needs to try to work their rifles hard and try to create failures at the range and not find out the hard way.

 

[mauser98]

Have you priced ammo and components for big bore rifles? I'd need a second mortgage to shoot hundreds of rounds through my 404 Jeffery at the range. And then maybe an appointment with Canadian National Institute for the Blind. My retinas couldn't take it.

"Practice, practice, practice" at the range with heavy recoil rifles can be counterproductive for many other reasons (e.g. punchy and flinching). Instead, I recommend sighting the gun in at the range after working up the desired load. Then put that expensive ammo away. Practice mounting and dry firing the gun at home to heart's content. Muscle memory can obtained without wasting $$$ or sustaining physical abuse.

If one goes dangerous game hunting then ammo price/reloading shouldn't be an issue. I'd have no problem running 9.3's, 375's and 416's year out. If I'm serious about my guns, my hunt, and my life then a little investment goes a long ways. Why be a liability to others and to the PH? At that point stay home and enjoy dry firing at the TV screen.

I'm not talking about getting to the point where you physically abuse yourself and develop a flinch. I'm talking about practicing often enough to work out the bugs, find issues, and becoming proficient.

 

[BJH65]

I trust my Kreighoff double, my Blaser R8, and Barnes TSX for any DG scenario. I do not trust my Ruger .375 Ruger since it failed to eject and jammed on the leopard charge. Everyone needs to try to work their rifles hard and try to create failures at the range and not find out the hard way.

Hi Phil, I just read your harrowing account regarding your leopard charge, very exciting and glad no one was seriously hurt. Since you said you short stroked the rifle wouldn’t more training and repetitions manipulating the bolt be the answer? I was trained to do at least 5000 repetitions to instill muscle memory, not just firearms related. No criticism intended. Many AH members use the Ruger Hawkeye African, Guide Gun and Alaskan on DG.

 

[Rifleman97]

Yeah, hacking/sawing open the breast is waste of time nonsense on freezing cold days. Save your energy for the other work that lies ahead (i.e. getting the carcass out).

Calving gloves is an interesting idea. Maybe for big animals. I've pretty much got deer gutting down to a fine art. Sleeves rolled up past my elbows and I rarely get blood any further than half way to them. Then wash clean with snow when I'm done. Trachea and esophagus stay in till it's hanging and skinned. Then I'll split the sternum. Cutting the throat in the field is another bullshit hunters safety course myth. If it's a big elk or moose removing the trachea, etc MIGHT help cool the neck a bit but best to get it quartered and skinned ASAP, especially if warm out. In warm weather pulling the trachea alone won't save that meat. Won't help at all. The skin on a bull elk's neck can be an inch thick!
View attachment 729131
Supposed to gut the deer, not myself. Flagging tape doubles as bandage.

Deer season here (Iowa) is in the middle of December, and antlerless is in January, so if I wore clothes like that I'd probably freeze! The coat I usually end up wearing is a carhart with a sweatshirt and long sleeve shirt underneath, sometimes a base layer beneath that, which doesnt really lend well to being tucked up. So its either wear calving gloves, or get blood soaked through all of my layers on the sleeves, or take my two outermost layers off and freeze. Taking off the coat is simply too cold, especially on windier days or January antlerless where the temps can some years get down into the -25C to -30C range. The calving gloves make it so I can leave all my layers on.

 

[Kevin Peacocke]

Glad you included Chapuis in that list. I have a Chapuis 470 ne that I just got back from JJ Perodeau for some upgrades. I have almost pulled the trigger on a few Heym 88bs but withheld thinking the money will go towards a elephant hunt. What game have you harvested with your Heym?

One buffalo bull, one impala ram, one bush pig.

 

[Philip Glass]

Hi Phil, I just read your harrowing account regarding your leopard charge, very exciting and glad no one was seriously hurt. Since you said you short stroked the rifle wouldn’t more training and repetitions manipulating the bolt be the answer? I was trained to do at least 5000 repetitions to instill muscle memory, not just firearms related. No criticism intended. Many AH members use the Ruger Hawkeye African, Guide Gun and Alaskan on DG.

It proved to not have been me short stroking the bolt. That is always the assumption. After the hunt I was on AH and read an account of a Zim PH of trouble with certain rifles. The article stated that Rugers were known for failing to eject when worked hard. I immediately went to my range and easily duplicated the malfunction. I was relieved to know it was not my fault but mad at my beloved Ruger for letting me down. This experience is what led me to the R8.

 

[BJH65]

It proved to not have been me short stroking the bolt. That is always the assumption. After the hunt I was on AH and read an account of a Zim PH of trouble with certain rifles. The article stated that Rugers were known for failing to eject when worked hard. I immediately went to my range and easily duplicated the malfunction. I was relieved to know it was not my fault but mad at my beloved Ruger for letting me down. This experience is what led me to the R8.

Thanks for clarifying, I did not know, I have no experience with them in the larger calibers and it’s most likely going to be worked hard in an emergency.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

If one goes dangerous game hunting then ammo price/reloading shouldn't be an issue. I'd have no problem running 9.3's, 375's and 416's year out. If I'm serious about my guns, my hunt, and my life then a little investment goes a long ways. Why be a liability to others and to the PH? At that point stay home and enjoy dry firing at the TV screen.

I'm not talking about getting to the point where you physically abuse yourself and develop a flinch. I'm talking about practicing often enough to work out the bugs, find issues, and becoming proficient.

I can usually work out the bugs and work up the load I want in one or two trips to the range. After that it's redundant. I shot my PHs 375 H&H exactly once at the range before using one shot the next day to take my first buffalo. Second buffalo, same one shot at the range before using two rounds to put it down. But of course I'm no novice hunter/shooter. Had never before shot a cartridge even remotely that big. No problem. If plinking at the range is enjoyable, by all means go for it. But as far as I'm concerned, it's not necessary. Now, shooting moving targets is a different matter. Spending quality time at the skeet range is an excellent way to sharpen skills shooting running game with a rifle. Shooting paper targets at a rifle range ... not so much.