Which Calibre Should Be Consigned to the Grave

[RedTag]

I just did a quick search and you are indeed correct. At some point I read an article about why the 450 Marlin was invented and it had something to do with the availability of 45-70 or 45-70 lever guns. But it appears that wasn't true. Researching now, it appears the 450 Marlin was an attempt to make a higher performance 45-70 cartridge, that idiots couldn't accidently put in a 45-70.

The Winchester 1886 is an excellent and very strong design; there’s a good reason it’s been around for so long. The Marlin 1895 in its modern form has been around since the 1970s, based on the 336 action. Note the original 1895 looked more like the square bolt 1894 and stopped producing sometime around the Great Depression if I recall correctly. They released the .450 Marlin in the year 2000, based on the .458x2” (shortened .458 Winchester Magnum) but the belt made longer to prevent chambering in other rifles like .338 WM, and in doing so lost the opportunity for one way interchangeability like what we have in .458 WM and Lott. This is what never made sense to me. The .45-70 was already achieving high levels of performance and doing so quite safely in established lever action firearms. The .450 was basically duplicating that performance and offering no other advantages or flexibility. The .45-70 can still be loaded with low pressure black powder loads if one desires. I thought the .450 could be kind of a neat short action big bore bolt action cartridge, like it’s wildcat predecessor, but in the lever action 1895 platform it just never made sense to me.

 

[steve white]

main complaint is it did not “out perform” the 300 WM. Its close and very efficient achieving similar performance with less powder.

Other technical issues is the short neck and limited COAL for longer high BC bullets. Works better in a “middle sized” action like a Tikka set to the long bolt stop.

Also the fat case had feeding issues unless sorted, feeds much better from a center feed or a removable clip.

It outperformed the 300 Win mag in at least one measurement--it is short enough to allow longer bullets in the Tikka T3C without compressing the bullet into the powder as much. Tikkas have the same detachable mag which can be unforgiving in that regard.

 

[steve white]

Can you make 5-600+ yard shots with .35 Whelen? It is giving up about 400fps at the muzzle for 200 grain bullets.

When you get into true long range shooting, different rules apply--mid range calibers quickly become too rainbow arced. Nobody wants to aim with the angle of a howitzer, and ranging becomes too critical if crippling hits/misses are to be avoided.

 

[steve white]

I’m good with all of them existing, even the 6.5 cm.

I didn’t go out of my way to find one, but I was offered a deal so good I couldn’t logically pass it up at the time. Rifle, accessories, including case and scope, a pile of ammo, for $200. I bought it, killed a few deer and had some fun at the range, then sold it. It helped me see the effectiveness of a 6.5 platform and now I have a 6.5 Swede M96 to finish out. I don’t regret either purchase.

Now, I would like to see a re-prioritization of certain calibers of bullet and brass manufacturing, as most of us would, but I’ll let someone else start that thread after this one gets its juice squeezed.

Edit:

I’ll also say this. For all the hate, the 6.5 cm did a LOT to get people interested and through the door for shooting accurately, practicing, etc. Any caliber that gets people excited and buying more guns and ammo and reloading materials is a good thing. Anyone who makes the argument that the CM wounds deer, but the Swede slays them, may need to read a bit about logical fallacy, causation vs correlation, etc. The pills they shoot can be identical, and we need to not be grognards about what people choose to hunt with and instead encourage them to hunt, and hunt ethically, etc.

The whole Creedmore derangement syndrome is just a bunch of camp hazing teasing that got out of hand. Surely no one thinks that it is inferior to the Swede.
Anything 8mm has struggled to gain traction in the US, but that doesn't mean it's not a great caliber, well proven in Europe.

 

[Flbt]

The whole Creedmore derangement syndrome is just a bunch of camp hazing teasing that got out of hand. Surely no one thinks that it is inferior to the Swede.
Anything 8mm has struggled to gain traction in the US, but that doesn't mean it's not a great caliber, well proven in Europe.

I dont think the ceed is inferior to the sweed.
There just was no reason for the creed because we all ready had the sweed and 260

 

[Eric Zelanko]

Why all the hate?

I’ve picked up several of these “newer” calibers simply to play. Did the 300 PRC, or back further 300 WSM, do anything my 300 WM or 300 H&H wouldn’t? Nope. But it sure has been fun picking out a rifle, scope mount, and scope to play with. And then finding the right bullet, powder and combinations to make it shoot sub MOA if possible. The bonus is these components are usually readily available for these new calibers. Yea, they sometimes fade away but I tend to buy in quantity for that very reason.

My latest toy is a Tikka 6.5 CM set in an MDT chassis stock with a 6-28 Athlon scope. Not for hunting but to ring steel at long range if my eyes are up to it. Are there other cartridges that could do just as well? Yep, I probably already own them. Would it be as much fun refitting or developing loads for that purpose? Maybe but in this group, who doesn’t want another rifle?

I’ve plenty of calibers that no longer are popular but I hope remain available. For instance, my supply of swift A-frames for the 8mm Mag are dwindling. Swift hasn’t had a run for years. How about our 16 ga shotguns? Available but extremely pricey.

In my opinion, there is simply no best caliber for the masses. I’m glad as it would be boring.

 

[RedTag]

I think cartridges like .308 Winchester and 6.5 Creedmoor are at their best in autoloading rifles, as originally intended, where they really show their true strengths and advantages. I never understood the love or the hate for the Creedmoor. Sure it is duplicating the ballistics of the .260 Remington and 6.5 Swede, which may seem redundant, but it’s designed specifically for autoloading rifles like the AR-10 platform which makes it make perfect sense. The .30-06 and family seem to offer the balance of power and efficiency in bolt action rifles. When we need a power level that the .30-06 and family can’t deliver, the full length belted magnum cartridges come into their own. The ultra magnum and alphabet soup cartridges of more recent development don’t bring enough more to the table to make the juice worth the squeeze, at least for me.

 

[matt85]

It was probably because it may have had a brake on it, and the windshield reflected a lot of the sound back into his ears. Check out this video on how powerful muzzle blast from brakes really are!

Yet another reason to NEVER use muzzle brakes! I've never owned a hunting rifle with a muzzle brake and I never will.

 

[Safari Dave]

300 Weatherby Magnum based on the guy in my safari camp.

Any caliber is good, even if only supported by a dedicated fan, realistically caliber choice should come with testing.

6.5 Creedmoor is not a horrible choice but a beginner needs to realize that you are not going to shoot a moose at 1200 yards the second time you shoot that gun.

IMO, the .300 Weatherby is the best .30 caliber cartridge ever devised!

(When you collect a bunch of eccentrics, what should you expect?)



I just bought a .340 Weatherby. (I already had a .338 Winchester)

IMO, the .340 Weatherby is the best coastal brown bear and polar bear cartridge ever devised...

Maybe, I just like Weatherby's...

They sure are pretty, and IMO something about the stock tames the recoil.

I'm sure your mileage may vary.

I'm still looking for ugly, but I just haven't been able to find it.

 

[analog_peninsula]

Yet another reason to NEVER use muzzle brakes! I've never owned a hunting rifle with a muzzle brake and I never will.

Never say never. I’m certainly not a fan, but they have their place. I completely agree that noise mitigation is essential.

 

[RedTag]

IMO, the .300 Weatherby is the best .30 caliber cartridge ever devised!

(When you collect a bunch of eccentrics, what should you expect?)



I just bought a .340 Weatherby. (I already had a .338 Winchester)

IMO, the .340 Weatherby is the best coastal brown bear and polar bear cartridge ever devised...

Maybe, I just like Weatherby's...

They sure are pretty, and IMO something about the stock tames the recoil.

I'm sure your mileage may vary.

View attachment 726854


I'm still looking for ugly, but I just haven't been able to find it.

I agree with you on the cartridge selection. There are five magnum cartridges below .375-caliber that really make the juice worth the squeeze in my opinion: .300 H&H, .300 Weatherby, 8mm Remington, .340 Weatherby, and .358 STA. The first is a classic with outstanding flexibility and accuracy potential across an incredibly wide range of bullet weights, while the other four push the limits of useable power in their respective weight classes without drastically going into the realm of diminishing returns.

 

[Safari Dave]

Honestly, I think many fairly newer cartridges maybe so confined...

All of the Remington Etronx cartridges were dead on arrival several years ago.


- Practically, all of the WSSM's
- Practically, all of the RUM's


Just speculation...

.22 Creedmoor
.22 ARC
.25 Creedmoor
6mm Creedmoor
6.8 Western
7mm PRC
7mm Backcountry
28 Nosler
.300 PRC
.360 Buck Hammer
.400 Legend
.458 SOCOM
.50 Beowulf


Retailers, just don't have enough room on their shelves to stock all of the stuff that has come on the market in the last decade, so they have to stock what sells.

If local gun stores don't have factory ammo available, then most guys will loose interest and start dumping their rifles.

I'm glad I don't have a pile of Remington EtronX rifles!

 

[Russ16]

I agree with you on the cartridge selection. There are five magnum cartridges below .375-caliber that really make the juice worth the squeeze in my opinion: .300 H&H, .300 Weatherby, 8mm Remington, .340 Weatherby, and .358 STA. The first is a classic with outstanding flexibility and accuracy potential across an incredibly wide range of bullet weights, while the other four push the limits of useable power in their respective weight classes without drastically going into the realm of diminishing returns.

I love 300 Wby. But the 8 mm mag is the worst gun I’ve ever shot from a recoil perspective.

I’m really becoming a fan of the 6.5 PRC. The design with a long throat allow heavy inclines bullets with enough weight and high BC to have a real advantage. Frankly it is what the fanboys claim the 6.5 creedmore is.

 

[Elkeater]

Talking of shot placment
I saw a under 100lbs doe ripped by a 338 rem ultra mag.
She still ran 75 yds.
She was a mess but she held on to life very strongly.

Funny how that works. I’ve shot whitetail does with a .300 win mag that ran 100 yards with no lungs left. And I’ve shot does with a .223 that went down in 15 feet after being hit in the lungs.


To the original question. None!!!! I love variety in rifle cartridges. Between me and my kids rifles I own .223 rem, 6 ARC, .243 win, 7-08 rem, 7-08ai, .30-06, .300 win mag. And I have multiple rifles in some of these cartridges because guns and cartridges are like golf clubs. Could you play an entire round of golf with a 3 wood? Sure. But do you really want to?

 

[Flbt]

I think cartridges like .308 Winchester and 6.5 Creedmoor are at their best in autoloading rifles, as originally intended, where they really show their true strengths and advantages. I never understood the love or the hate for the Creedmoor. Sure it is duplicating the ballistics of the .260 Remington and 6.5 Swede, which may seem redundant, but it’s designed specifically for autoloading rifles like the AR-10 platform which makes it make perfect sense. The .30-06 and family seem to offer the balance of power and efficiency in bolt action rifles. When we need a power level that the .30-06 and family can’t deliver, the full length belted magnum cartridges come into their own. The ultra magnum and alphabet soup cartridges of more recent development don’t bring enough more to the table to make the juice worth the squeeze, at least for me.

The 260 is a necked down 308 so if a 308 made for a auto the 260 was to.

For me at least it’s not the cartridge it’s self. It’s the way the manufacturer push them as the new wonder that can do oh so much more.
And to gun people we know it’s bs. But do you remember the 30 ar from Remington?
Remember the adds for it being this wonder for longrang shooting?
One of my brother frinds from work bought one when it came out. He bought into the hipe. Told me how much better for long range work it was than my 257 wbm.
1 one I told him he needs to read a ballistic chart.
2 I don’t care what either drop past 400yds any way.

The china flu pops up
And they want to make new wonder calibers instead of feeding what people all ready had.

 

[meigsbucks]

I love 300 Wby. But the 8 mm mag is the worst gun I’ve ever shot from a recoil perspective.

I’m really becoming a fan of the 6.5 PRC. The design with a long throat allow heavy inclines bullets with enough weight and high BC to have a real advantage. Frankly it is what the fanboys claim the 6.5 creedmore is.

I have both a Win and Wby .300 mag. I’ve just always preferred the Wby round. My Win has a 26” tube, yet is 100-150 fps slower than than Blaser Wby barrel. Less accurate as well.
When Remington first brought out the 8mm mag, I bought one. Factory loads gave shotgun patterns. Hand loads… I could only get decent accuracy with the 220gr Sierra, but only at about 2700 fps. Sold that puppy. However, I thought it waa a solid concept of a round.
I am a huge fan of the .338 RUM, but alas, it is a dead soldier.

 

[matt85]

Never say never. I’m certainly not a fan, but they have their place. I completely agree that noise mitigation is essential.

Muzzle brakes have their place... on machineguns and anti-material rifles. They have no business on hunting rifles.

 

[RedTag]

The 260 is a necked down 308 so if a 308 made for a auto the 260 was to.

For me at least it’s not the cartridge it’s self. It’s the way the manufacturer push them as the new wonder that can do oh so much more.
And to gun people we know it’s bs. But do you remember the 30 ar from Remington?
Remember the adds for it being this wonder for longrang shooting?
One of my brother frinds from work bought one when it came out. He bought into the hipe. Told me how much better for long range work it was than my 257 wbm.
1 one I told him he needs to read a ballistic chart.
2 I don’t care what either drop past 400yds any way.

The china flu pops up
And they want to make new wonder calibers instead of feeding what people all ready had.

The .260 Remington certainly works in autoloading rifles, but can struggle with the longer heavy for caliber 6.5mm bullets feeding from the magazine due to case design and overall length. This is why the 6.5 Creedmoor was based on the .30 TC (instead of .308 Winchester) specifically as an improvement to allow more room to work with longer projectiles. This of course being the reason for the popularity of the 6.5mm.

 

[Flbt]

The .260 Remington certainly works in autoloading rifles, but can struggle with the longer heavy for caliber 6.5mm bullets feeding from the magazine due to case design and overall length. This is why the 6.5 Creedmoor was based on the .30 TC (instead of .308 Winchester) specifically as an improvement to allow more room to work with longer projectiles. This of course being the reason for the popularity of the 6.5mm.

Could just seat the heavier bullets deeper in the case. Yes I know it cuts into powder space.
But the shorter case cuts powder space to.

 

[Saul]

The 400 H&H may be redundant but I still want one.